Romans 8-9 and predestination

[grandfather]

We can be sure that free will is part of that mystery. The passage about the rich man actually proves the truth of Catholic teaching. The rich man kept the letter of the law by avoiding sin. He also obviously had faith in Jesus. (which was given to him by the Father) But Jesus exhorts him to add works to his faith in order to attain salvation (by selling his goods to the poor). Jesus tells him that his faith alone will not save him.

Ryan, I do not think Jesus tells him he is not saved. He told him to do what is in the law. The man said he has always done this and Jesus does not call him a hypocrit. He says, if he wants to be perfect he should give away his wealth and follow Him. This is about the evangelical councils, poverty, chastity and obedience.

 

[ryanoneil]

Ryan, I do not think Jesus tells him he is not saved. He told him to do what is in the law. The man said he has always done this and Jesus does not call him a hypocrit. He says, if he wants to be perfect he should give away his wealth and follow Him. This is about the evangelical councils, poverty, chastity and obedience.

The point is: The rich man came to him in faith. Jesus spelled out exactly what he had to do “to gain eternal life.” Because wealth and material goods were considered a sign of God’s favor in the Old Testament, the rich man couldn’t accept the apparent contradiction. “When the young man heard this statement, he went away sad, for he had many possesions.” Jesus offered him the gift of salvation (which is beyond human capability) and He chose not to take it.

Peace,

Ryan

 

[PaperMoon]

But all of us are like Judas in a sense. We are already evil sinful beings. Peter repents of His sin of betrayal and Judas the betrayer hangs himself. Why did God use the already evil Judas for one purpose and allow Peter to repent and be the head of His Church? We do not know. Beyond looking at these figures and wondering about them we have to look at ourselves. Every time I sin I betray Christ. You also do the same.

The point is that Judas had the same opportunity to change as Peter did. Judas just did not, would not and never would. Period. God knew this and used it to His advantage. We are not all like Judas because a lot of people are willing to repent and turn from evil Judas was not. Judas had the same free will to repent as Peter and you and I, Judas chose not to change and would never change same as pharoah. It’s not just Judas’ act you have to look at, it’s his heart. Some people steal and then go to jail and turn their lives around and live good clean respectful lives when they get out and never steal again and others as soon as they get out of jail look for another bank to rob. It’s the heart, not just the actions. The ones who stole committed the same crime but the one who turned his life around had a different heart than the one who continued in crime till he got caught again eventually. Judas had the same opportunity as Peter to repent.

 

[cynic]

The point is that Judas had the same opportunity to change as Peter did. Judas just did not, would not and never would. Period. God knew this and used it to His advantage.

There’s the problem. God put Judas in a situation where he knew he would sin, and commit one of the worst crimes you can think of. God facilitated sin by ‘using’ Judas. This is not the same as God reacting to our choice to sin, it’s deliberately manipulating the situation and using evil to acheive a goal.

 

[suupah]

People who come to faith, become aware of the gravity of their sins, truly repent of their sins, live grace filled lives say, “why me”.

Amen!!

 

[suupah]

There’s the problem. God put Judas in a situation where he knew he would sin, and commit one of the worst crimes you can think of. God facilitated sin by ‘using’ Judas. This is not the same as God reacting to our choice to sin, it’s deliberately manipulating the situation and using evil to acheive a goal.

I see your point and think that you could go even further in light of

Romans 9:21
Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for a noble purpose and another for an ignoble one?

 

[CindiA]

God did not create Judas to sin or commit evil niether did He shape Judas to commit evil, God simply took someone who already had that kind of evilness in his heart and used him for that purpose. Judas was already evil and on his way to hell because of his own choices even if he had never met or worked with Jesus. That’s why God picked him. It’s like picking a serial killer to do the job since he’s already evil and has the evilness at his core by his own choices. God did not make Judas who he was and God did not make Judas do what he did, He simply provided the oportunity for Judas to just be himself. Judas could have still repented even after that but chose not to.

You’re correct PaperMoon. God did not cause Judas to do or to be anything. He simply allowed his natural sinful nature (that which we all have because of original sin) to take it’s course. Judas rejected God. God did not reject Judas. It’s the same as when I went through a 10 year period where I was worshipping demons and calling on them for my guidance and help. God allowed me to do this. He certainly didn’t cause me to reject him. During this time, I sinned greatly and gravely. But, still God did not cause it. My sin had major negative effects on others, but still God did not cause it. I did. God did not predestine that any that I had relations with to come to a bad end. But, He did know about it before the fact. In the same light, God did not cause Judas to do anything.

An interesting thought: Is Judas really in Hell? He committed suicide. But, wasn’t that possibly a misguided act of repentance and isn’t it possible that God granted him grace at his final moment?

 

[PaperMoon]

There’s the problem. God put Judas in a situation where he knew he would sin, and commit one of the worst crimes you can think of. God facilitated sin by ‘using’ Judas. This is not the same as God reacting to our choice to sin, it’s deliberately manipulating the situation and using evil to acheive a goal.

What’s wrong with God using sin to His advantage if sin must exist anyway? It’s better than His using someone who would not sin and using them to sin and causing someone who could have been saved to go to hell. How do we know that Judas did not originally choose on his own to turn against Jesus and God seeing this ahead of time simply orchestrated it to His behalf? Like originally without God’s interference Judas followed Jesus and waited to turn against him so God seeing this ahead of time simply put Judas right where he was going to put himself anyway. I do not believe God made Judas do anything Judas would not have done himself, God simply guided Judas’ messed up choices to work for His behalf.

 

[PaperMoon]

You’re correct PaperMoon. God did not cause Judas to do or to be anything. He simply allowed his natural sinful nature (that which we all have because of original sin) to take it’s course. Judas rejected God. God did not reject Judas. It’s the same as when I went through a 10 year period where I was worshipping demons and calling on them for my guidance and help. God allowed me to do this. He certainly didn’t cause me to reject him. During this time, I sinned greatly and gravely. But, still God did not cause it. My sin had major negative effects on others, but still God did not cause it. I did. God did not predestine that any that I had relations with to come to a bad end. But, He did know about it before the fact. In the same light, God did not cause Judas to do anything.

An interesting thought: Is Judas really in Hell? He committed suicide. But, wasn’t that possibly a misguided act of repentance and isn’t it possible that God granted him grace at his final moment?

Okay good point! True God did not cause you to do what you did and He knew you would find your way back to Him too.

It’s another true point that none of us really know where Judas ended too, that’s a good point. We can’t say for absolute sure who made it in and who didn’t. We might all be surprised when we get to heaven! LOL!