Romans 8

[CRW]

Romans 8, V9-10: Ignatius, RSV, Catholic Edition, Ignatius Press

“But you are not in the flesh, you are in the Spirit, if the Spirit of God really dwells in you. Any one who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. But if Christ is in you, although your bodies are dead because of sin, your spirits are alive because of righteousness.”

First reading of this seems to refute the teachings of the Catholic Church if one considers that the teachings are that if one is in grave sin, the soul, not the body is dead. All grace is gone when we are in the state of mortal sin.

However, Romans 8, V 12 -14:

“So then, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh – for if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body you will live.”

As I read this, it teaches Catholic doctrine. If we remain free (our bodies) from grave sin, our soul remains with the Spirit.

Any comments? Merry CHRISTmas All

 

[Della]

Romans 8, V9-10: Ignatius, RSV, Catholic Edition, Ignatius Press

“But you are not in the flesh, you are in the Spirit, if the Spirit of God really dwells in you. Any one who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. But if Christ is in you, although your bodies are dead because of sin, your spirits are alive because of righteousness.”

First reading of this seems to refute the teachings of the Catholic Church if one considers that the teachings are that if one is in grave sin, the soul, not the body is dead. All grace is gone when we are in the state of mortal sin.

Two points:

1. Paul is saying that our bodies are dead–mortal, but our spirits are alive–immortal.
2. Are you sure the Church teaches that our bodies aren’t mortal? That is what Paul is saying here. He is not talking about committing mortal sins, but the state of the body compared to that of the soul, as I described it in point #1.

However, Romans 8, V 12 -14:

“So then, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh – for if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body you will live.”

As I read this, it teaches Catholic doctrine. If we remain free (our bodies) from grave sin, our soul remains with the Spirit.

Any comments? Merry CHRISTmas All

Both verses teach Catholic doctrine, my friend. You have simply misunderstood what Paul was telling us. And this is why we leave the discerning of doctrine and dogma to the Magisterium. Yes?

And a Merry Christmas to you, too!

 

[CRW]

Two points:

1. Paul is saying that our bodies are dead–mortal, but our spirits are alive–immortal.
2. Are you sure the Church teaches that our bodies aren’t mortal? That is what Paul is saying here. He is not talking about committing mortal sins, but the state of the body compared to that of the soul, as I described it in point #1.

Both verses teach Catholic doctrine, my friend. You have simply misunderstood what Paul was telling us. And this is why we leave the discerning of doctrine and dogma to the Magisterium. Yes?

And a Merry Christmas to you, too!

What I was trying to say, is that mortal sin kills the soul or removes all graces from the soul. Although our bodies remain the same, we are dead to Christ in sin. Yes, on the final day, our bodies and soul will be united as one. I did not read this as that day of judgment, IMHO.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

sometimes reading a text in a simpler translation helps, I also recomemd reading I cor 15 and gal 5.

Romans 8 esv

Life in the Spirit
1There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.[a] 2For the law of the Spirit of life has set you** free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. 3For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin,[c] he condemned sin in the flesh, 4in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. 6To set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. 7For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot. 8Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

9You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. 10But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.

Heirs with Christ
12So then, brothers,[d] we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons[e] of God. 15For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, “Abba! Father!” 16The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17and if children, then heirs–heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him.

Future Glory
18For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us. 19For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God. 20For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope 21that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now. 23And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. 24For in this hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees? 25But if we hope for what we do not see, we wait for it with patience.

26Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words. 27And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because[f] the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. 28And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good,[g] for those who are called according to his purpose. 29For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

God’s Everlasting Love
31What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be[h] against us? 32He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things? 33Who shall bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. 34Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died–more than that, who was raised–who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us.* 35Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword? 36As it is written,

“For your sake we are being killed all the day long;
we are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered.”

37No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, 39nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.***

 

[Pax]

In Matthew 26:41 Jesus says, “Watch and pray that you may not enter into temptation; the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.”

References to the “flesh” most frequently mean “human effort.” Our efforts in the flesh will fail. We must and can only live by the spirit. God’s grace in the spirit brings power. The following verses should be helpful in this regard:

Psalm 94:17-19
If the LORD had not been my help, my soul would soon have lived in the land of silence. When I thought, “My foot is slipping,” your steadfast love, O LORD, held me up.

2 Cor 3:5-6
Not that we are competent of ourselves to claim anything as coming from us; our competence is from God, who has made us competent…

Eph 3:16
I pray that, according to the riches of his glory, he may grant that you may be strengthened in your inner being with power through his Spirit,

Eph 3:20
Now to him who by the power at work within us is able to accomplish abundantly far more than all we can ask or imagine,

Phil 4:13
I can do all things through him who strengthens me.

Col 1:11
May you be made strong with all the strength that comes from his glorious power, and may you be prepared to endure everything with joy

2 Thess 1:11
To this end we always pray for you, asking that our God will make you worthy of his call and will fulfill by his power every good resolve and work of faith, so that the name of our Lord Jesus may be glorified in you, and you in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Thess 3:3
But the Lord is faithful; he will strengthen you and guard you from the evil one.

2 Tim 1:7
for God did not give us a spirit of cowardice, but rather a spirit of power and of love and of self-discipline.

2 Tim 3:2- 5
For people will be lovers of themselves, … lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, holding to the outward form of godliness but denying its power.

Heb 13:9
Do not be carried away by all kinds of strange teachings; for it is well for the heart to be strengthened by grace,

2 Peter 1: 3-4
His divine power has given us everything needed for life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness. Thus he has given us, through these things, his precious and very goodness. Thus he has given us, through these things, his precious and very great promises, so that through them you may escape from the corruption that is in the world because of lust, and may become participants of the divine nature.

John 15:5
I am the vine, you are the branches. Those who abide in me and I in them bear much fruit, because apart from me you can do nothing.

 

[CRW]

sometimes reading a text in a simpler translation helps, I also recomemd reading I cor 15 and gal 5.

I don’t disagree with anything you posted. My OP was concerning the teaching of Catholic doctrine that if we sin mortally, our soul is not in Christ, unless we repent by confession. I was taught that it is the soul that dies by sin, not the body. Yes, if we actually die in a state of mortal sin, then the body and soul is dead in Christ.

The OP: "But if Christ is in you, although your **bodies are dead because of sin, **your spirits are alive because of righteousness.” My question concerned the underlined; our bodies are dead of sin vs. our soul is dead by sin.