romans 9

[cw6]

I dont know if this is posted in the right area. I am reformed baptist looking at church history and the catholic church. starting to see new things that I didn’t know the early church fathers believed. I’m trying to find where the catholic church is on romans 9 and the doctrine of election/predestination. I’ve always seen it inlight of this passage and ephesians 1, these being the stronger passages in scripture.
Thanks for any help

 

[Pug]

I dont know if this is posted in the right area. I am reformed baptist looking at church history and the catholic church. starting to see new things that I didn’t know the early church fathers believed. I’m trying to find where the catholic church is on romans 9 and the doctrine of election/predestination. I’ve always seen it inlight of this passage and ephesians 1, these being the stronger passages in scripture.
Thanks for any help

Welcome to CAF, Clint. I read in your first bio post that you are considering RCIA. I hope that goes well for you.

I think you are asking if Catholics have things they believe about election, foreknowledge, predestination, and being chosen. We do! But you will find that there is some variation from Catholic to Catholic. The Church does not always draw a line that says you must believe exactly X. Within the topic of predestination, there is a *small *bit of leeway allowed, so you will meet Catholics with more than one opinion.

First, since you mention Romans 9, rather than the famous passage from Romans 8 (those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed, etc.), are you perhaps asking specifically about God’s promises to Israel (the Jewish people)? If so, then yes, the Catholic Church teaches that they are part of God’s plan still. You can read a paragraph about this here.

God has foreknowledge and saw us before we were ever born. He knows what will happen to us from beforehand. He foresees how we will respond and choose. He does not decide half-way through our life who will end up in heaven. He knows who those are before we are born. You might know those as the “elect”, depending on how it was explained to you in the past.

Catholics do not believe a certain doctrine called double predestination, however. We do not believe that at the beginning God selected certain individuals to be damned, paying no attention to how they would respond to his grace.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC) is very helpful for finding out what Catholics believe about various topics, but if I recall correctly in this one case it doesn’t have a lot to say. I think most Catholics don’t spend much time thinking about the topic of God electing a person to glory. I find we think more often about Providence, which is a slightly different topic.

If you are into reading, you can read the old Catholic Encyclopedia on line for free. It has an entry on this topic. It is written strongly in favor of the Molinist point of view, however, and I am a Thomist. The author dislikes my opinion. Oh well. It remains acceptable to be a Thomist, nonetheless. Also, since you mention being from a reformed background, you might like an article by Jimmy Akin about TULIP, where he relates it to Catholic teaching.

Predestination

A Tiptoe Through TULIP

 

[cw6]

Thank you,

I would refer to romans 8,9,and 10 as they all deal with the topic. My understanding is catholics don’t beleive once saved always saved, I could be wrong as I have been about many catholic beliefs. I don’t see how there could be any other way if GOD in his perfect foreknowledge new everything I would do and yet drew me to his son. I am confused as to what that means for those whom GOD did not elect. IN romans 9:11-15 it specifically speaks of GOD chosing one over te other and its not based on any merit.

 

[cw6]

I forgot to mention, Thanks for the suggested readings i will look them and read. The one related to tulip sounds like it ill answer my questions. I am really enjoying the amount of info I have been discovering espesially on the holy communion. A real eye opener and it all makes sense. 3 months ago I wouldn’t have said that

 

[Texas_Roofer]

I dont know if this is posted in the right area. I am reformed baptist looking at church history and the catholic church. starting to see new things that I didn’t know the early church fathers believed. I’m trying to find where the catholic church is on romans 9 and the doctrine of election/predestination.

Romans 9:7-8 “It is through Isaac that descendants shall bear your name.” This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as descendants.

I’ve always seen it inlight of this passage and ephesians 1, these being the stronger passages in scripture.
Thanks for any help

*Ephesians 1:11-14
In him we were also chosen, destined in accord with the purpose of the one who accomplishes all things according to the intention of his will, so that we might exist for the praise of his glory, we who first hoped in Christ. In him you also, who have heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and have believed in him, were sealed with the promised holy Spirit, which is the first installment of our inheritance toward redemption as God’s possession, to the praise of his glory. *

Thank you,

I would refer to romans 8,9,and 10 as they all deal with the topic. My understanding is catholics don’t beleive once saved always saved,

correct

I could be wrong as I have been about many catholic beliefs. I don’t see how there could be any other way if GOD in his perfect foreknowledge new everything I would do and yet drew me to his son.

drawn or cast? Esau sold his birthrite which changed his status. this was a free will decision of Esau

I am confused as to what that means for those whom GOD did not elect. IN romans 9:11-15 it specifically speaks of GOD chosing one over te other and its not based on any merit.

Genesis 25: 29-34 ?

I forgot to mention, Thanks for the suggested readings i will look them and read. The one related to tulip sounds like it ill answer my questions. I am really enjoying the amount of info I have been discovering espesially on the holy communion. A real eye opener and it all makes sense. 3 months ago I wouldn’t have said that

If a baptist is saved as a teeanager who saves him? And is he then free to rape and pillage for the remainder of his life based on ? ( what exactly occurred as a teeanage, when he was saved? )

Predestine is the bigger plan some will follow the bigger plan which is their freewill, those will have faith and works. Some will not follow.

 

[notsmart]

I thought this link would be helpful in this converstation.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=267856

Personally, I can’t accept OSAS doctrine for a number of reasons.

 

[Pug]

Thank you,

I would refer to romans 8,9,and 10 as they all deal with the topic. My understanding is catholics don’t beleive once saved always saved, I could be wrong as I have been about many catholic beliefs. I don’t see how there could be any other way if GOD in his perfect foreknowledge new everything I would do and yet drew me to his son. I am confused as to what that means for those whom GOD did not elect. IN romans 9:11-15 it specifically speaks of GOD chosing one over te other and its not based on any merit.

Yes, definitely try the tiptoe article. It is probably the most relevant to your questions.

Texas Roofer is, of course, correct. Catholics do not believe in once saved always saved. For example, a person can be made right with God, then fall away later on, and then repent after that and return to God and go to the sacrament of reconciliation. Or, they might never repent and might never be brought back. God knows which it is that will happen for each particular person. Even though he knows what we will accept or reject, this doesn’t stop him from offering it. He is faithful, even if we are not.

About those whom God did not elect, those who are not among the elect to heaven will not go to heaven. The number of people who are going to be in heaven is what you could call a fixed number. Remember, we can’t typically point out who these people are with absolute certainty. God knows, though.

About why God chose the one person and not the other person, that is a hard topic. Some say that God foresees that a person will respond nicely to grace, and so then God elects them. Others say that God elects whom he elects, without considering how he knows they will respond. Remember though, that any great thing you or I do is on account of the grace of God.

About merit, I don’t think any natural man has strict merit before God of the sort that can compel God in justice to pick one man over the other to receive a certain position or gift. God may give a gift to one man and not give the gift to the other man and still God will be just. Israel (Jacob) was chosen for a specific thing. Zillions of other people weren’t so chosen. I wasn’t chosen to be an athlete. Tiger Woods was. God may do these things as he sees fit.

 

[cw6]

Yes, definitely try the tiptoe article. It is probably the most relevant to your questions.

Texas Roofer is, of course, correct. Catholics do not believe in once saved always saved. For example, a person can be made right with God, then fall away later on, and then repent after that and return to God and go to the sacrament of reconciliation. Or, they might never repent and might never be brought back. God knows which it is that will happen for each particular person. Even though he knows what we will accept or reject, this doesn’t stop him from offering it. He is faithful, even if we are not.

About those whom God did not elect, those who are not among the elect to heaven will not go to heaven. The number of people who are going to be in heaven is what you could call a fixed number. Remember, we can’t typically point out who these people are with absolute certainty. God knows, though.

About why God chose the one person and not the other person, that is a hard topic. Some say that God foresees that a person will respond nicely to grace, and so then God elects them. Others say that God elects whom he elects, without considering how he knows they will respond. Remember though, that any great thing you or I do is on account of the grace of God.

About merit, I don’t think any natural man has strict merit before God of the sort that can compel God in justice to pick one man over the other to receive a certain position or gift. God may give a gift to one man and not give the gift to the other man and still God will be just. Israel (Jacob) was chosen for a specific thing. Zillions of other people weren’t so chosen. I wasn’t chosen to be an athlete. Tiger Woods was. God may do these things as he sees fit.

Thank yo the article you recommended was very helpful. It all makes sense. I see that the bible does not teach osas exclusivly. but that there are numurous passages that refer to our need to “work out our own salvation wih fear and trembling”, " Not everyone who says LoRD,LORD shall enter the kingdom of heavan but he who does the will of the father". “Abide in me and I will abide in you” Its all there I could go on and on.

Thanks again,
Clint

 

[Pug]

Thank yo the article you recommended was very helpful. It all makes sense. I see that the bible does not teach osas exclusivly. but that there are numurous passages that refer to our need to “work out our own salvation wih fear and trembling”, " Not everyone who says LoRD,LORD shall enter the kingdom of heavan but he who does the will of the father". “Abide in me and I will abide in you” Its all there I could go on and on.

Thanks again,
Clint

Great! Glad the article was useful. I like that Lord, Lord quote from the end of the sermon on the mount, too.