Romans bible study

[Odell]

I just re read mikledes post and I think im starting to get it.

they did not do the law in a state of grace but now that Jesus has came we can uphold the law because of his grace. And we will be rewarded in the long run

correct me if im wrong

 

[mikeledes]

I have gotten to page 5 good stuff but am going to have to finish reading later

I am one who has tought works of the law is just ceremonial
But have come to realize I have been wrong

Could you give a breaf catholic undestanding of works of the law

I wouldn’t know how to adress the question if it comes up

When Paul says “The Law”, he means the Mosaic Law as an integral whole. So he is not separating the moral from the ceremonial. The Law means both. The moral law of God formerly expressed in the Mosaic Law is now expressed in a postive form as the Law of Christ (Love). Hence, Paul makes it quite clear that the setting aside of the Mosaic Law does not mean the setting aside of the moral law of God:

1 Corinthians 9:20-21

**20To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law though not being myself under the Law, so that I might win those who are under the Law;
21to those who are without law, as without law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ, so that I might win those who are without law. **

Remember, Paul is addressing those Judaizers who claimed that they enjoyed divine favor and mercy because of their observance of the Mosaic Law (moral and ceremonial precepts).

God bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

I just re read mikledes post and I think im starting to get it.

they did not do the law in a state of grace but now that Jesus has came we can uphold the law because of his grace. And we will be rewarded in the long run

correct me if im wrong

God has empowered us to use our members (bodies) as instruments of righteousness, as Paul will explain in Romans 6. We can now fulfill the moral law of God when we fulfill the Law of Christ (love). And we shall be judged according to the Law of Christ.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[Catholic_Dude]

God has empowered us to use our members (bodies) as instruments of righteousness, as Paul will explain in Romans 6. We can now fulfill the moral law of God when we fulfill the Law of Christ (love). And we shall be judged according to the Law of Christ.

God Bless,
Michael

And hence Rom 2:13, “the doers of the law will be justified.”
(Rom 2a is dealing with the final judgment)

 

[Philthy]

Catholic Dude:

I don’t see why their immediate faith in Jesus was insufficient, they both approached Him believing Him a genuine inspired teacher.

If their faith in him was sufficient, why wouldnt he simply say, like he did to many others, that you must believe? Why confuse things by pointing to the Mosic law? It doesnt add up. In addition, you are purely speculating on their faith - the lawyer, in particular, “wishing to justify himself” spoke with Jesus.

Jesus wasn’t talking about keeping the Mosaic Law in itself, He was pointing them to the fulfillment which is Love as the Sermon on the Mount and elsewhere show. The Rich Young man was also called to leave all follow Jesus, that is the essence of fulfilling the law. The Lawyer was likewise showed what it really means to love neighbor.

But loving neighbor as self IS the Mosaic law. You cant say that observing the law has no power but loving God and neighbor as self - which IS the LAW - does have power. Too confusing.

I would say the main issue to recognize is that Paul attacking the Law is about getting into the New Covenant, Jesus (and Paul later) was talking about how those already in are to live in the New Covenant.

Not sure what you’re driving at here.

Rom 13: 8Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for he who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law

. 9The commandments, “Do not commit adultery,” “Do not murder,” “Do not steal,” "Do not covet,"a] and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”(“http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=rom 13&version=31#fen-NIV-28261b”)**] 10Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

Love is the fulfillment of the law - always has been, always will be. So what’s changed? How is anything different? That’s the question, my friend. I dont mean to be difficult, but I have been struggling recently with understanding these exchanges (young man and lawyer) and Im hoping that by prodding you that we’ll both be able to better understand and articulate this sensitive topic. My current take on it is this: fulfilling the spirit of the law - love of God and neighbor as self - does allow one to be a member of Gods family. The problem is that we cant, of ourselves, fulfill the spirit of the law. That is why Christ came - to atone for our sins AND to send the Holy Spirit to empower us to be able to fulfill the law and to have access to the forgiveness of sins when we fail to do so. Both the lawyer and the rich young man were not fulfilling the spirit of the law (love) but merely the letter of the law. Think about this: Christ told the RYM, who claimed to follow the law completely, that if he wished to be perfect to “sell everything that he has, give it to the poor and come follow me”. We are told that the RYM left sad… Do you realize what is so interesting about what Christ asked of him? The request, and the RYM’s reaction to it points out, IMHO, that he didnt really love God above all else - he loved his possessions more. In addition, he didnt love his neighbor as himself - otherwise he would have been open to giving them away to the poor. The totality of the INTENT or spirit of the law (as opposed to the letter of the law) is love of God and love of neighbor. Despite claiming “All these I have observed;” in reference to the 10 Commandments and " You shall love your neighbor as yourself.", he didnt, actually love God properly and he didnt love his neighbor. Christ, rather than saying this to him directly, chose to speak to him through his conscience by giving him a choice between good or evil…just as he does with each of us today. We quickly come to realize - once our minds and hearts are enlightened by God that we will never perfectly love God or neighbor and we need help. I’ll bet both of those men “got it” when they heard of the crucifixion and had the gospel of grace and the forgiveness of sins preached to them.

 

[Philthy]

Not necessarily post crucifixion, but definately faith. We do not obligate God to give us grace/salvation like an employee obligates his employer to pay wages. Faith in Christ must be behind our good works in order for it to be considered a work of grace; otherwise, it is a “work of law” or obligation.

You are absolutely correct that we dont obligate God. If God, however, establishes a covenant then he obligates himself. If God says “If you confess your sins I will forgive them” he obligates himself (his justice requires it) to do what he promised to do. His offer of forgiveness remains and act of grace though we enter into that grace through a choice we make.

 

[ryanoneil]

You are absolutely correct that we dont obligate God. If God, however, establishes a covenant then he obligates himself. If God says “If you confess your sins I will forgive them” he obligates himself (his justice requires it) to do what he promised to do. His offer of forgiveness remains and act of grace though we enter into that grace through a choice we make.

That sound right.

This saying is trustworthy: If we have died with him we shall also live with him; if we persevere we shall also reign with him. But if we deny him he will deny us. If we are unfaithful he remains faithful, for he cannot deny himself. (2 Tim 2:11-13)

Which means we need to understand the nature of God’s promise.

 

[Catholic_Dude]

If their faith in him was sufficient, why wouldnt he simply say, like he did to many others, that you must believe? Why confuse things by pointing to the Mosic law? It doesnt add up.

Believing in Him includes obeying Him, so whenever Jesus demanded belief/faith, it was a package deal. I don’t see how He was confusing things, He was pointing to the fulfillment of the Law which is Love.

In addition, you are purely speculating on their faith - the lawyer, in particular, “wishing to justify himself” spoke with Jesus.

The phrase “wishing to justify himself” is merely asking for clarification, he was not acting arrogantly or with malicious intent (as opposed to those who wanted to try to trap Jesus).

My assumption is that if they were willing to go up to someone and ask them how to obtain eternal life, I would assume they would have faith in Him to one degree or another. I just looked both account up, and they both call Jesus “Teacher.”

But loving neighbor as self IS the Mosaic law. You cant say that observing the law has no power but loving God and neighbor as self - which IS the LAW - does have power. Too confusing.

I think you are mixing two things here.

About Loving your neighbor being in the Mosaic Law, yes it says that in Lev 19:18. But the Mosaic Law is a package, a Jews is not to just pull out Lev 19:18 and a few others and go by those alone, he subscribes to the whole package when he is under the Mosaic Law. But the Mosaic Covenant was temporary, it pointed to Jesus who was the End result.
Fulfillment does not restricted to keeping every rule with 100% perfection, thought Jesus did, but even more it means recognizing what the Law was trying to get across and pointing to and following that objective. When we are called to fulfill the Law we are not subscribing to the Mosaic Law package but to what it points to (the “law of Christ”). The New Covenant is the perfect realization of all the Old Covenant pointed to, and teachings like Lev 19:18 are not included in the New alone but have been brought to even greater light (fulfillment). For example, the Lawyer did NOT know who his neighbor was! “Neighbor” is not limited to next door, or same social class or same race or even same religion, rather it is anyone whom you come across. Yet that narrow definition of “neighbor” is precisely how the Lawyer, the priest and the Levite thought.
With our Christian glasses on we can look back and better understand what the OT was really saying beyond a surface reading.

Regarding “power,” the Mosaic Law does not impart Divine Life in your soul (sanctifying grace), the Spirit does. With sanctifying grace your works become supernaturally good and pleasing to God, and now in a state of grace your acts of love to your neighbor are “fulfilling the Law.”

Not sure what you’re driving at here.

The Spirit gets us into the New Covenant, our obedience to it keep us inside it. Paul preaching against the Mosaic Law was against the Judaizer misunderstanding of the role of the Law, Jesus was not dealing with this issue. Jesus was talking to people who believed in Him, who were already in the New Covenant.

Love is the fulfillment of the law - always has been, always will be. So what’s changed? How is anything different?

True, is ALWAYS HAS BEEN true. Adam had these teaching written on his heart and in his first state had a clear mind to understand them. Since the Fall, everything went out of whack, a “re-education” plan had to be introduced, which included putting the teachings on paper (eg 10 Commandments), but when Jesus came He literally enlightened us and teaches how the Spirit guides us now. The OT saints only had an implicit understanding of this.

My current take on it is this: fulfilling the spirit of the law - love of God and neighbor as self - does allow one to be a member of Gods family. The problem is that we cant, of ourselves, fulfill the spirit of the law. That is why Christ came - to atone for our sins AND to send the Holy Spirit to empower us to be able to fulfill the law and to have access to the forgiveness of sins when we fail to do so.

Amen, this is what I was trying to say above…you already GOT it…I think we are talking past eachother.

Both the lawyer and the rich young man were not fulfilling the spirit of the law (love) but merely the letter of the law. … The totality of the INTENT or spirit of the law (as opposed to the letter of the law) is love of God and love of neighbor. Despite claiming “All these I have observed;” in reference to the 10 Commandments and " You shall love your neighbor as yourself.", he didnt, actually love God properly and he didnt love his neighbor. Christ, rather than saying this to him directly, chose to speak to him through his conscience by giving him a choice between good or evil…just as he does with each of us today.

I agree with the main essence of this. I would just add, that I believe the RYM officially sinned when he turned away from Christ. He was keeping the commandments, and that was a good thing, but when he was further enlightened on what all that meant he turned away from Jesus and the love of God in his heart died.

We quickly come to realize - once our minds and hearts are enlightened by God that we will never perfectly love God or neighbor and we need help. I’ll bet both of those men “got it” when they heard of the crucifixion and had the gospel of grace and the forgiveness of sins preached to them.

I totally agree.
I think we both are saying the same thing but are talking past eachother.

 

[D_M]

Hi,

Paul finishes from saying how it is that all, both jews and gentiles are likewise under the power of sin, he then asks that most poignant and important question that jews would likely have asked themselves: ‘then what advantage has the jew?’

What was the point of that whole covenant, the law and the prophets, that the Hebrew people had carried on for so long if it turned out that they remained equal to gentiles in that they were all likewise sinners and it didn’t make a difference in that regard if they had known the truth or not?

Paul then responds that it is in fact ‘much in every way’, as simply possessing these oracles is itself a good thing, and furthermore God’s goodness cannot be nullified by human sinfulness.

What he does say, quite plainly and perhaps controversially in his own time, is further down he says ‘Are we Jews any better off? No, not all; for I have already charged that all men, both Jews and Greeks, are under the power of sin’

We couldn’t say exactly the same thing about christians, as being baptized in itself frees us from the power of sin which the circumcision could never do… but we could say something similar in the sense that simply being christian in itself is not better than being a non-believer in itself, as what is really required is that we not only believe but also do what is good.

He makes reference to how God is glorified by our sinfulness also in this chapter.

He recites a number of verses from various places in the old testament (perhaps showing how scripture-literate this former pharisee must have personally been), which deal with the fallen nature of mankind… how not even one person is truly perfect in God’s eyes.

He says that the law speaks to those who are under the law, which is similar to what he says in another place when he writes that ‘sin is not counted where there is no law’… implying that he is referring here to the jewish law and that gentiles were not under it, nor were they committing sins by violating it when they did not know it and what it required.

When therefore, Paul writes shortly afterwards, that ‘the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law’… he is not saying that one can be justified without obeying the commandments and doing works of the law (as he clearly said in the last chapter that only the doers of the law will be justified), but rather in the context in which he is speaking, what he means is that this righteousness of God is now open to people who were not under the jewish law and is given to them apart from whether or not they should have ever followed the jewish law that was unknown to gentiles and had been fulfilled by the incarnation.

This context is shown clearly when he writes, ‘we hold that a man is justified by faith apart from works of law. Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles also?’

He was not referring to the law in the sense of the teachings of Jesus, which we cannot be justified if we do not follow, but he was rather referring to the jewish law which no longer needed to be followed in order to be righteous. As all men, Paul controversially states, both those who had followed the covenant and those who hadn’t were likewise sinners and could be redeemed by the same sacrifice.

We are justified by His grace and through the redemption offered in the sacrifice on the cross. We cannot have His grace though if we continue to sin against Him though and we lose it every time we commit deadly sin, hence we can only be justified by grace if we cooperate with it and if we actually have it, which means we must then do good and not evil works.

Paul’s teaching, as he writes, is not overthrowing God’s commandments, but is rather teaching that it is no longer needed to follow the commandments that were given by God through Moses in order to be righteous any longer, and that God’s commandments, as obedience to His Son, are being fulfilled by this teaching to be in His grace.

Verses of potential interest:

God shall prevail when He judges and He is true though every man be false:

Psalms 51:4 Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done that which is evil in thy sight, so that thou art justified in thy sentence and blameless in thy judgment

The venom of asps is beneath their tongues:

Psalms 140:3 They make their tongue sharp as a serpent’s, and under their lips is the poison of vipers.
Selah

Their feet are swift to she blood…:

Isaiah 59:7-8 Their feet run to evil, and they make haste to shed innocent blood; their thoughts are thoughts of iniquity, desolation and destruction are in their highways. The way of peace they know not, and there is no justice in their paths; they have made their roads crooked, no one who goes in them knows peace.

no human being will be justified in His sight by works of the law:

Acts 13:39 and by him every one that believes is freed from everything from which you could not be freed by the law of Moses

he justifes him who has faith in Jesus:

1 John 2:2 and he is the expiation for your sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world

God Bless,

 

[Nita]

Ok help me here the law lacks the power to save but good works done in grace (in Christ)do have the power to save

I can’t explain this without geting by Paul and the moral law

Help me here and thanks in advance for being patient

Keep in mind how we are saved. We are saved by grace alone. We must have the presence of sanctifying grace (supernatural life of God) in our souls in order to be saved.

The Mosaic Law did not communicate this grace to human souls. * What it communicated was/is knowledge of God’s will - and the need to obey it.* But man discovered that knowledge of the Law (God’s will) is not enough; it does not give one the strength to keep it. Only the power of God’s life (grace) present in our souls, strengthening our will, enables us to live according to His decrees. (This life of grace was lost by Adam and Eve; Jesus merited the restoration of this life of grace for us and freely betstows it on us in Baptism.)

We are “saved” from sin when it is gone from us; no longer present in us, in our thoughts, words, deeds. The law brings knowlege of what God’s moral law is - grace gives us the strength to keep it - to be “saved” from sin (disobeying God’s commands).

You say “good works done in grace” have the power to save. I think that’s not quite right. Rather, grace gives us the power to do good works. That’s why it is not us (our power) who are accomplishing the good, or saving ourselves; it is God, the power of His grace working - when we cooperate with it.

The need to keep the moral law is connected to the necessity for the life of grace to be present for salvation. When we fail to obey the moral law in a serious matter (mortal sin), we separate ourselves from God and His saving grace in our soul.

I realize I’m saying a lot of what Catholic Dude said. Sometimes it helps to hear it expressed from a couple of different people. Maybe this will add a little. (I used to have the same difficulties you express Odell.)

Nita

 

[Odell]

Keep in mind how we are saved. We are saved by grace alone. We must have the presence of sanctifying grace (supernatural life of God) in our souls in order to be saved.

The Mosaic Law did not communicate this grace to human souls. * What it communicated was/is knowledge of God’s will - and the need to obey it.* But man discovered that knowledge of the Law (God’s will) is not enough; it does not give one the strength to keep it. Only the power of God’s life (grace) present in our souls, strengthening our will, enables us to live according to His decrees. (This life of grace was lost by Adam and Eve; Jesus merited the restoration of this life of grace for us and freely betstows it on us in Baptism.)

We are “saved” from sin when it is gone from us; no longer present in us, in our thoughts, words, deeds. The law brings knowlege of what God’s moral law is - grace gives us the strength to keep it - to be “saved” from sin (disobeying God’s commands).

You say “good works done in grace” have the power to save. I think that’s not quite right. Rather, grace gives us the power to do good works. That’s why it is not us (our power) who are accomplishing the good, or saving ourselves; it is God, the power of His grace working - when we cooperate with it.

The need to keep the moral law is connected to the necessity for the life of grace to be present for salvation. When we fail to obey the moral law in a serious matter (mortal sin), we separate ourselves from God and His saving grace in our soul.

I realize I’m saying a lot of what Catholic Dude said. Sometimes it helps to hear it expressed from a couple of different people. Maybe this will add a little. (I used to have the same difficulties you express Odell.)

Nita

And thanks to you both Nita and Catholic Dude. Im almost there but not to the point where I can explain it to others.

thanks again

 

[Philthy]

Hi Nita!
Nita;:

Keep in mind how we are saved. We are saved by grace alone. We must have the presence of sanctifying grace (supernatural life of God) in our souls in order to be saved.

This I get without difficulty.

The Mosaic Law did not communicate this grace to human souls. What it communicated was/is knowledge of God’s will - and the need to obey it. But man discovered that knowledge of the Law (God’s will) is not enough; it does not give one the strength to keep it.

OK, so the purpose of the law was to demonstrate man’s inability, apart from God’s grace, to be holy. While the prophets pointed to the Messiah who would rescue mankind from their sin.
Yes?

Nita:
The need to keep the moral law is connected to the necessity for the life of grace to be present for salvation. When we fail to obey the moral law in a serious matter (mortal sin), we separate ourselves from God and His saving grace in our soul.

I like this emphasis and I understand your point (and CD’s) thank you both! One last issue…
Why did Christ tell the RYM and the Lawyer that the path to eternal life was the keeping of the Law? Was it to prepare them(ie post Crucifixion/Pentecost) to join their faith in Him as the Messiah with the “need to keep the moral law…for the life of grace to be present for salvation.”? I think this is what CD implicitly stated when he said “they already had faith in him” - Sorry if Im being dense…I just want to understand why Christ would point someone to the Mosaic law in understanding salvation…

 

[SyCarl]

I like this emphasis and I understand your point (and CD’s) thank you both! One last issue…
Why did Christ tell the RYM and the Lawyer that the path to eternal life was the keeping of the Law? Was it to prepare them(ie post Crucifixion/Pentecost) to join their faith in Him as the Messiah with the “need to keep the moral law…for the life of grace to be present for salvation.”? I think this is what CD implicitly stated when he said “they already had faith in him” - Sorry if Im being dense…I just want to understand why Christ would point someone to the Mosaic law in understanding salvation…

With respect to the rich young ruler I think that Jesus was pointing out our own inability to keep the Law. Remember that in Romans 10:2-3 Paul speaks of the Jews.

2: For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge.
3: For not knowing about God’s righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they do not subject themselves to the righteousness of God.

 

[Odell]

**Chapter 4
3
For what does the scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.” **

Catholic Dude could you touch on this I know from reading some of you stuff that protestants and Catholics view credited as righteousness two very different ways

25
who was handed over for our transgressions and was raised for our justification.

I have used this verse in response to those who say It was finished on the cross. We know Jesus said it was finished but what did Jesus mean especially when he was raised for our justification

anyone can look further into that here

 

[Odell]

Well I tried looking for it but cant find it I had a link to something Scott Hann said went into detail “It is finished” if anybody knows what im talking about please link it. I would like to freshen up on this subject as well.

 

[ryanoneil]

Many Protestants believe that we are so depraved that God only covers our sins up by declaring us righteous (imputing Christ’s righteousness to us). The Catholic (and Scriptural view), however, is that God is powerful enough to blot out our sins and remove them. The view that God just declares us righteous by “covering us up,” denigrates the role of the Holy Spirit in our lives, who continues the work of Christ through His work of justification and sanctification (infusing His grace into souls and changing the inner person).

scripturecatholic.com/justification.html#justification-III

 

[Odell]

Many Protestants believe that we are so depraved that God only covers our sins up by declaring us righteous (imputing Christ’s righteousness to us). The Catholic (and Scriptural view), however, is that God is powerful enough to blot out our sins and remove them. The view that God just declares us righteous by “covering us up,” denigrates the role of the Holy Spirit in our lives, who continues the work of Christ through His work of justification and sanctification (infusing His grace into souls and changing the inner person).

scripturecatholic.com/justification.html#justification-III

right and Catholic Dude has informed me that Abraham was credited righteousness because he actually was righteous

anyway I want steal his thunder he can do far better explaining it than me. Im not at the point where I know it well enough to

 

[mikeledes]

Here is an interesting take on observance of the law and justification from a Protestant. It tals about a future justification:

hornes.org/theologia/rich-lusk/future-justification-to-the-doers-of-the-law

God bless,
Michael

 

[Nita]

Hi Nita!

This I get without difficulty.

(“This” being salvation by grace alone.)
Here are some Scripture texts that speak of it: Romans 3:24 and 11:6; Ephesians 1:7-8, 2:5 and 8; Titus 4-7
To understand “why” it is grace alone that saves requires some study on just what this saving (sanctifying) grace is, what in us needs saving, etc. Have you read the section in the CCC on Grace and Justification? (Starts at paragraph #1987) It will really be helpful. Also, check out “grace” and “salvation” in the CCC Index at the back.

OK, so the purpose of the law was to demonstrate man’s inability, apart from God’s grace, to be holy. While the prophets pointed to the Messiah who would rescue mankind from their sin.
Yes?

I’d say there was a twofold purpose:
First: to give information. It was the way God chose to reveal to man the truth of what is right and what is wrong (which only God determines).
Meditation point: Recall that in the garden Adam and Eve rejected God’s word in regard to what it was right for them to do, and instead decided to usurp His role and determining for themselves what was good and what was evil (Gen 3:5. That is the significance of the name given to the Tree).

Man’s history prior to the Mosaic Law reveals just how far astray from God’s truth human thinking and actions had strayed. We can recognize this now because the Ten Commandments and the Gospel have been revealed to us. (The Law contained more than just the moral code. In addition to revealing His moral truths, God determined to establish a religion and a nation to preserve and practice them. Hence, the law He gave thru Moses also contained regulations pertaining to religious rites and to national regulations.)

Second: as you noted was “to demonstrate man’s inability, apart from God’s grace, to be holy”. Sometimes we only learn through experience!!! Without it, we would probably pridefully insist to God that we would have kept His law if only He’d have told us what it was.
(I called this “second” not necessarily in the sense of importance; rather, because the revelation of the law had to occur first, before we could discover our inability to keep it.)

***In my two posts here I have not incorporated at all the expiation aspect of salvation which was accomplished by Our Lord. (It was His sacrificial offering that reconciled our humanity with God.)

Nita

 

[Nita]

Well I tried looking for it but cant find it I had a link to something Scott Hann said went into detail “It is finished” if anybody knows what im talking about please link it. I would like to freshen up on this subject as well.

Not sure, but think Scott connects “It is finished” to the 4th cup of wine that was part of the Passover. Jesus says those words after the sponge full of vinegar. John 19:30

Nita