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Catholic_Dude
Guest
Good catch. The Protestant NIV (which I usually cut and paste from on biblegateway.com) does not translate it that way, so that fact is missed, but the more literal translations do bring out this fact.
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Catholic_Dude
Guest
Is it online somewhere?. that would be an awesome resource.
Thank you so much for these quotes, it has really helped me to understand Rom much better.
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smkw
Guest
S
smkw
Guest
Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: “All nations will be blessed through you. [Gen 12:3]”
-Gal 3:8 (also see Heb 11:8)
Read: The real story behind justification by faith alone.
Nicholas. This link that you sent that ? you? put together looks quite comprehensive. (Justification: Protestant vs. Catholic)
Where did all this great information come from?
Thanks.
Sue
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Catholic_Dude
Guest
I wrote it myself, I don’t know if I would call it comprehensive, but I tried to include the main points without it becoming a textbook. I got that information from various sources, most especially learning directly off of these forums and personal research and readings. It was a very tough task, by the time I started to the time I finished was about 6 months (though it was not continuous non stop work, I took many breaks).
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Chesster
Guest
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smkw
Guest
Been busy reading, am about 1/2 way through and as a Catholic convert, I find it very helpful. I’ve had a lot of Protestant friends and have had a very protestant viewpoint on many of these topics. It’s very refreshing to have it all spelled out and contrasted. I DO love the Catholic perspective and i’ll be digesting all this information for some time.
I do recommend to other readers on this thread that they read your comparison on the Protestant/Catholic topic of Justification.
I especially like that you began with Genesis.
Excellent job! I congratulate you!
Sue
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Catholic_Dude
Guest
WOW, you’re awesome! I knew about his other commentaries, but not Romans!
phatcatholic.blogspot.com/2006/09/scripture-commentary-by-st-thomas.html
Thank you.
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Pax
Guest
We’ve been dissed.Hey Brothers and Sisters:
I’m not learning much from this thread. I prefer Scott Hahn’s Scripture teaching and Father Mitch Pacwa…sooooooooo
sayonaraaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa…
O
Odell
Guest
Guys I have asked mikeledes to post chapters if I am absent on Tuesdays so the tred can stay on course. with that note lets start Ch 2
**Chapter 2
1
Therefore, you are without excuse, every one of you who passes judgment. For by the standard by which you judge another you condemn yourself, since you, the judge, do the very same things.
2
We know that the judgment of God on those who do such things is true.
3
Do you suppose, then, you who judge those who engage in such things and yet do them yourself, that you will escape the judgment of God?
4
Or do you hold his priceless kindness, forbearance, and patience in low esteem, unaware that the kindness of God would lead you to repentance?
5
By your stubbornness and impenitent heart, you are storing up wrath for yourself for the day of wrath and revelation of the just judgment of God,
6
who will repay everyone according to his works:
7
eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works,
8
but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness.
9
Yes, affliction and distress will come upon every human being who does evil, Jew first and then Greek.
10
But there will be glory, honor, and peace for everyone who does good, Jew first and then Greek.
11
There is no partiality with God.
12
All who sin outside the law will also perish without reference to it, and all who sin under the law will be judged in accordance with it.
13
For it is not those who hear the law who are just in the sight of God; rather, those who observe the law will be justified.
14
For when the Gentiles who do not have the law by nature observe the prescriptions of the law, they are a law for themselves even though they do not have the law.
15
They show that the demands of the law are written in their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even defend them
16
on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge people’s hidden works through Christ Jesus.
17
Now if you call yourself a Jew and rely on the law and boast of God
18
and know his will and are able to discern what is important since you are instructed from the law,
19
and if you are confident that you are a guide for the blind and a light for those in darkness,
20
that you are a trainer of the foolish and teacher of the simple, because in the law you have the formulation of knowledge and truth–
21
then you who teach another, are you failing to teach yourself? You who preach against stealing, do you steal?
22
You who forbid adultery, do you commit adultery? You who detest idols, do you rob temples?
23
You who boast of the law, do you dishonor God by breaking the law?
24
For, as it is written, “Because of you the name of God is reviled among the Gentiles.”
25
Circumcision, to be sure, has value if you observe the law; but if you break the law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision.
26
Again, if an uncircumcised man keeps the precepts of the law, will he not be considered circumcised?
27
Indeed, those who are physically uncircumcised but carry out the law will pass judgment on you, with your written law and circumcision, who break the law.
28
One is not a Jew outwardly. True circumcision is not outward, in the flesh.
29
Rather, one is a Jew inwardly, and circumcision is of the heart, in the spirit, not the letter; his praise is not from human beings but from God. **
**Chapter 2
1
Therefore, you are without excuse, every one of you who passes judgment. For by the standard by which you judge another you condemn yourself, since you, the judge, do the very same things.
2
We know that the judgment of God on those who do such things is true.
3
Do you suppose, then, you who judge those who engage in such things and yet do them yourself, that you will escape the judgment of God?
4
Or do you hold his priceless kindness, forbearance, and patience in low esteem, unaware that the kindness of God would lead you to repentance?
5
By your stubbornness and impenitent heart, you are storing up wrath for yourself for the day of wrath and revelation of the just judgment of God,
6
who will repay everyone according to his works:
7
eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works,
8
but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness.
9
Yes, affliction and distress will come upon every human being who does evil, Jew first and then Greek.
10
But there will be glory, honor, and peace for everyone who does good, Jew first and then Greek.
11
There is no partiality with God.
12
All who sin outside the law will also perish without reference to it, and all who sin under the law will be judged in accordance with it.
13
For it is not those who hear the law who are just in the sight of God; rather, those who observe the law will be justified.
14
For when the Gentiles who do not have the law by nature observe the prescriptions of the law, they are a law for themselves even though they do not have the law.
15
They show that the demands of the law are written in their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even defend them
16
on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge people’s hidden works through Christ Jesus.
17
Now if you call yourself a Jew and rely on the law and boast of God
18
and know his will and are able to discern what is important since you are instructed from the law,
19
and if you are confident that you are a guide for the blind and a light for those in darkness,
20
that you are a trainer of the foolish and teacher of the simple, because in the law you have the formulation of knowledge and truth–
21
then you who teach another, are you failing to teach yourself? You who preach against stealing, do you steal?
22
You who forbid adultery, do you commit adultery? You who detest idols, do you rob temples?
23
You who boast of the law, do you dishonor God by breaking the law?
24
For, as it is written, “Because of you the name of God is reviled among the Gentiles.”
25
Circumcision, to be sure, has value if you observe the law; but if you break the law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision.
26
Again, if an uncircumcised man keeps the precepts of the law, will he not be considered circumcised?
27
Indeed, those who are physically uncircumcised but carry out the law will pass judgment on you, with your written law and circumcision, who break the law.
28
One is not a Jew outwardly. True circumcision is not outward, in the flesh.
29
Rather, one is a Jew inwardly, and circumcision is of the heart, in the spirit, not the letter; his praise is not from human beings but from God. **
O
Odell
Guest
I dont know but it sound like a good argument for faith and works
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SyCarl
Guest
This says that we will be judged according to our works, not that we will justified by them.
In His judgement God will be just and be seen to be just. The works that we do are the evidence that we have a true faith. While God knows that He is right the works will show the world that He is just when He judges.
It is similar to any trial. You are judged according to the evidence. The evidence does not make you innocent or guilty but it is used to decide whether you are. Unlike an earthly judge, God already knows the right verdict but the evidence will show us he is right. I believe that this is where our saying that it is not enough that justice be done but that it also be seen to be done.
The evidentiary nature of works is seen through out the New Testament. Jesus tells us to judge the tree by its fruits. The fruit does not make the tree bad or good but it does show whether the tree is bad or good.
Similarly in the judgement between the sheep and goats, Jesus already knows who is a sheep and who is a goat. The evidence of works He gives shows those being judged that the judgement is just.
What Paul is saying in the first part of Chapter 2 is that if we condemn someone, it is wrong because we do the same things. Then he shows that God’s judgement will be right.
In His judgement God will be just and be seen to be just. The works that we do are the evidence that we have a true faith. While God knows that He is right the works will show the world that He is just when He judges.
It is similar to any trial. You are judged according to the evidence. The evidence does not make you innocent or guilty but it is used to decide whether you are. Unlike an earthly judge, God already knows the right verdict but the evidence will show us he is right. I believe that this is where our saying that it is not enough that justice be done but that it also be seen to be done.
The evidentiary nature of works is seen through out the New Testament. Jesus tells us to judge the tree by its fruits. The fruit does not make the tree bad or good but it does show whether the tree is bad or good.
Similarly in the judgement between the sheep and goats, Jesus already knows who is a sheep and who is a goat. The evidence of works He gives shows those being judged that the judgement is just.
What Paul is saying in the first part of Chapter 2 is that if we condemn someone, it is wrong because we do the same things. Then he shows that God’s judgement will be right.
O
Odell
Guest
Thanks SyCarl
We may disagree but this is what I am wanting a study that shows our two perspectives
It is tempting to offer a rebuttal
But that is for another thred
So Catholics please dont respond directly to SyCarl if you want to give the Catholic perspective as Carl has done with his that is fine.
Started a thred on this subject so this thred doesn’t get out of control forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=4183281#post4183281
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smkw
Guest
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Pax
Guest
P
Pax
Guest
Romans 2 follows on the heals of eleven verses in chapter 1 that describe those that are at enmity with God. Evil and sin separate man from God and Romans 1:32 makes it clear that by “God’s decree these people deserve death.”
Paul then makes the point that the Jews are not to judge the gentiles in any of this since they themselves engage in the same evil. The Jew and the Gentile receive no partiality, and Paul makes it clear that no one escapes God’s judgment[see Romans 2:1-3].
Romans 2:5-11 states that “on the day of wrath”[judgment day] all will be judged by the good and the bad that they do. This means that they will not be judged by their faith alone.
Paul then makes the point that the Jews are not to judge the gentiles in any of this since they themselves engage in the same evil. The Jew and the Gentile receive no partiality, and Paul makes it clear that no one escapes God’s judgment[see Romans 2:1-3].
Romans 2:5-11 states that “on the day of wrath”[judgment day] all will be judged by the good and the bad that they do. This means that they will not be judged by their faith alone.
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Catholic_Dude
Guest
C
Catholic_Dude
Guest
My understanding of Romans 2, as I have been thinking about my comments from last week:
I would say a more logical break for chapter 2 should actually start at 2:17.
To me, Rom 1:18-2:16 is the same issue. I agree with Pax that 1:32 goes directly with what is said immediately at the start of ch2. I say it reaches it’s peak at 2:9-11.
Further, I believe Paul is talking about all men, not just gentiles in ch 1, because 2:9-11 would not fit right if it were only talking about Gentiles.
Another important point to make is regarding 2:5-8, “God will give to each person according to what he has done.” While Protestants generally claim works prove we are saved, Rom 2:5-8 is a strong proof we are judged according to our works, how we lived our life.7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile.
This goes flatly against any notion of a one time, complete “saved” moment and against OSAS.
I have often heard it said (by Catholic converts from Protestantism) that Protestants don’t really know what do with Rom 2 because passages like the above dont fit their theology. They see Rom 1-3a as a indictment/condemnation of the whole world, with Rom 3b-4 as the “answer/solution” to this indictment. Thus when Paul talks about salvation according to works in between ch1 and ch3, it doesn’t fit.
Next, I would say Rom 2:17-3a is an added condemnation to either the Jews (non-Christians) or more likely the Judaizers (Jewish-Christian converts who were discriminating against Gentiles).
I have come to see Rom 2:17-24 as the key to understanding why Paul is mad/worried. These Judaizers were looking down upon the Gentile converts as an inferior class of people, almost like Whites “versus” Blacks discrimination in America. The Gentiles were “stupid” when it came to God’s laws, and they were not literally children of Abraham. To me, this is the only view that makes sense in light of how St Paul responds: he says the Jews commit the same sins, plus hypocricy, and that (in ch 4) the true children of Abraham are believers and not blood descendants.
Also, passages like 2:19 helped me understand why God chose the Jews. It was not, as I had mistakenly thought for so long, that God was leaving the Gentiles out in the cold for the first half of salvation history, but so that He could have these people as his mouthpiece to the nations. Thus the “light to those in darkness” means their duty was to live moral lives and thus convince their gentile neighbors that the God of Abraham was the one true God and they should imitate their lifestyle. I saw some OT passages that explain this as well, but I cant remember them off the top of my head. This makes sense in light of verse 24, which is a very strong stinging condemnation, the Jews on the grand scale failed their duty and caused the Gentiles to distrust and mock the One True God.
I have also come to REALLY like 2:25-29, esp 28f:28A man is not a Jew if he is only one outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. 29No, a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a man’s praise is not from men, but from God.
This passage is a gold mine. It is saying the Law itself lacks the power to save, and it is the Spirit who gives life. This is in essence the Catholic view of justification, an inner transformation by the Spirit. This also is comparable to Col 2:11In him you were also circumcised, in the putting off of the sinful nature, not with a circumcision done by the hands of men but with the circumcision done by Christ,** 12having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead.**
Usually red text is for highlighting only, but I felt this whole passage worthy of that.
So circumcision is required for salvation, but it is not physical circumcision but that of an inner spiritual transformation.
Some might want to check out my Ephesians 2:8 apologetics article, because I am taking my thoughts from there.
Passages like 2:28f don’t square with the Protestant notion that Rom 1-3a are an indictment, and further with the Protestant notion of an imputed alien righteousness rather than an infused transforming one. I am fully convinced Paul’s main argument against “works of the law” saving in ch3 and beyond comes down to passages like 2:28f. The Law doesn’t save because it lacks the power on its own to give life, it is not because the Law is too hard and so we have to look elsewhere. Also, 2:28f and the “real Jew” notion are what make places like Rom 13:8-12 make sense.
Oh boy, I’m tired after writing all that, hope I didn’t come off sounding too nerdy.
I would say a more logical break for chapter 2 should actually start at 2:17.
To me, Rom 1:18-2:16 is the same issue. I agree with Pax that 1:32 goes directly with what is said immediately at the start of ch2. I say it reaches it’s peak at 2:9-11.
Further, I believe Paul is talking about all men, not just gentiles in ch 1, because 2:9-11 would not fit right if it were only talking about Gentiles.
Another important point to make is regarding 2:5-8, “God will give to each person according to what he has done.” While Protestants generally claim works prove we are saved, Rom 2:5-8 is a strong proof we are judged according to our works, how we lived our life.7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile.
This goes flatly against any notion of a one time, complete “saved” moment and against OSAS.
I have often heard it said (by Catholic converts from Protestantism) that Protestants don’t really know what do with Rom 2 because passages like the above dont fit their theology. They see Rom 1-3a as a indictment/condemnation of the whole world, with Rom 3b-4 as the “answer/solution” to this indictment. Thus when Paul talks about salvation according to works in between ch1 and ch3, it doesn’t fit.
Next, I would say Rom 2:17-3a is an added condemnation to either the Jews (non-Christians) or more likely the Judaizers (Jewish-Christian converts who were discriminating against Gentiles).
I have come to see Rom 2:17-24 as the key to understanding why Paul is mad/worried. These Judaizers were looking down upon the Gentile converts as an inferior class of people, almost like Whites “versus” Blacks discrimination in America. The Gentiles were “stupid” when it came to God’s laws, and they were not literally children of Abraham. To me, this is the only view that makes sense in light of how St Paul responds: he says the Jews commit the same sins, plus hypocricy, and that (in ch 4) the true children of Abraham are believers and not blood descendants.
Also, passages like 2:19 helped me understand why God chose the Jews. It was not, as I had mistakenly thought for so long, that God was leaving the Gentiles out in the cold for the first half of salvation history, but so that He could have these people as his mouthpiece to the nations. Thus the “light to those in darkness” means their duty was to live moral lives and thus convince their gentile neighbors that the God of Abraham was the one true God and they should imitate their lifestyle. I saw some OT passages that explain this as well, but I cant remember them off the top of my head. This makes sense in light of verse 24, which is a very strong stinging condemnation, the Jews on the grand scale failed their duty and caused the Gentiles to distrust and mock the One True God.
I have also come to REALLY like 2:25-29, esp 28f:28A man is not a Jew if he is only one outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. 29No, a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a man’s praise is not from men, but from God.
This passage is a gold mine. It is saying the Law itself lacks the power to save, and it is the Spirit who gives life. This is in essence the Catholic view of justification, an inner transformation by the Spirit. This also is comparable to Col 2:11In him you were also circumcised, in the putting off of the sinful nature, not with a circumcision done by the hands of men but with the circumcision done by Christ,** 12having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead.**
Usually red text is for highlighting only, but I felt this whole passage worthy of that.
So circumcision is required for salvation, but it is not physical circumcision but that of an inner spiritual transformation.Some might want to check out my Ephesians 2:8 apologetics article, because I am taking my thoughts from there.
Passages like 2:28f don’t square with the Protestant notion that Rom 1-3a are an indictment, and further with the Protestant notion of an imputed alien righteousness rather than an infused transforming one. I am fully convinced Paul’s main argument against “works of the law” saving in ch3 and beyond comes down to passages like 2:28f. The Law doesn’t save because it lacks the power on its own to give life, it is not because the Law is too hard and so we have to look elsewhere. Also, 2:28f and the “real Jew” notion are what make places like Rom 13:8-12 make sense.
Oh boy, I’m tired after writing all that, hope I didn’t come off sounding too nerdy.
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Pax
Guest
CD,
Well put throughout. The distinction between the law and grace, and between living by the law versus by the Spirit is crucial to understanding all of Paul’s teaching regardless of the epistle you choose.
The law has no power to save, and the law did not give the Jews the power to fulfill the law. The power given to us to overcome sin is given to us in grace.
Well put throughout. The distinction between the law and grace, and between living by the law versus by the Spirit is crucial to understanding all of Paul’s teaching regardless of the epistle you choose.
The law has no power to save, and the law did not give the Jews the power to fulfill the law. The power given to us to overcome sin is given to us in grace.
- Status