Romans Chapter 9

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peeteyg

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Do you think Romans Chapter 9 supports Reformed theology position or Catholic position more? Is this irrestible grace? Does it deny mans free will? Does it show god creates some men for hell? What is the difinitive Catholic arguement and position against this decidedly protestant used verse? Does it mean what it says or is there other insights to gleen from it. Looking forward to any responses.
 
Any passage of Scripture can appear to support a non-Catholic doctrine when it is interpreted without the context of the whole Bible. The Catholic understanding is that God has a foreknowledge, as we see Scripture say “1 Pet 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father”, What that means is that God does not force us to chose Him, but He knows beforehand whether we will use our free will to choose Him or not. God also will use those whom He knows is going to reject Him, and He will use them in order to serve a purpose. He will even take them and even harden their hearts even more than what they already are in order to be instruments of judgment or motivation for the saints.
 
This chapter is not “decidedly protestant” just so you know. Typically, it is the security blanket of double-predestination Calvinists. Look at this passage:Romans 9:21-22 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destructionThis is Paul saying “what if” because God indeed has the power to do that. But these verses do not say God creates people for the purpose of sending them to hell or that He deprives them of any grace to get to heaven.

The analogy in this chapter is of “clay.” The potter has control over clay because it is malleable, soft. But what else does Scripture tell us? We are not to harden our hearts. We are to thus remain like the clay God wants to mold, and if we let Him, He will lead us to His eternal kingdom.

In the Old Testament, if you follow the story of Pharoah in Exodus, it seems like half the time the text says “Pharoah hardened his heart” and the other half the time it says “The Lord hardened Pharoah’s heart.” So you see how the concepts can be seen interchangeably? If Pharoah hardens his heart, God lets him (and will still bring about his will through Pharoah’s decision) so in another sense God being sovereign is said to “harden Pharoah’s heart.” And you remember in Romans 9:18 it says God hardens who He wants to harden. In the same way, when Paul says God could create a vessel of wrath, it does not mean the person spoken of would not have the free will to choose God. And it would still make sense to say God wills to harden those who reject Him.

St. John Chrysostom, writing around the 4th century, interpreted the verses in question this way:Here it is not to do away with free-will that he says this, but to show, up to what point we ought to obey God. For in respect of calling God to account, we ought to be as little disposed to it as the clay is…And when he does go on to say, Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor?* do not suppose that this is said by Paul as an account of the creation, nor as implying a necessity over the will, but to illustrate the sovereignty and difference of dispensations**; for if we do not take it in this way, various incongruities will follow, for if here he were speaking about the will, and those who are good and those not so, He will be Himself the Maker of these, and man will be free from all responsibility. And at this rate, Paul will also be shown to be at variance with himself, as he always bestows chief honor upon free choice. There is nothing else then which he here wishes to do, save to persuade the hearer to yield entirely to God, and at no time to call Him to account for anything whatever. For as the potter (he says) of the same lump makes what he pleases, and no one forbids it; thus also when God, of the same race of men, punishes some, and honors others, be not thou curious nor meddlesome herein, but worship only, and imitate the clay.*I also recommend reading some of the other early Church commentaries on this passage, which you can find in the previous poster’s homepage. :o
 
Yeah ! This is what I needed to understand better. When i said “decidedly” I meant it as a protestant tool and not as proof of protestants being correct. I have been reading Jurgens early church fathers and will look up your info. Thanks again. If anyone else can add to this I would appreciate it. Thanks !!!
 
I was just thinking of the prayer that Jesus taught us which says ‘lead us not into temptation, but deliver us’ which suggests that our Father may choose to lead us to continue with a hardened heart. Do you think this applies here to the hardened heart of Pharoah?
 
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