Romans

[thistle]

Ok. I don’t really expect everyone to read the Catechism-I just think it’d be great if they did. I’m still trying to understand your argument. Is there something-anything-I posted that conflicts in the slightest with Catholic teaching? Explaining the teachings more fully, making them more understandable- was the purpose. Since we obviously can’t or don’t all read the Church’s teachings ourselves.

In an earlier post I had the impression that you implied that a person who died in a state of mortal sin did not go immediately to Hell but that what good they had done during their earthly life out of love for God was taken into account and they might be saved. Obviously you are not saying that.

 

[Jim_Baur]

Jim.
The Church teaches that there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church and that baptism is necessary for salvation. What does that mean? A person is deemed to be Catholic by:

• Sacramentally baptised as a Catholic
• Baptism of Blood (that means a Non-Catholic dying for the Catholic Faith)
• Baptism of Desire - explicit (e.g. a catechumen)
• Baptism of Desire - implicit (invincible ignorance whereby a person who through no fault of their own does not know Christ, his Gospel and his Church but lives a good life in accordance with the teachings of Christ in that ignorance. Such a person MAY (not will) be saved)

Outside the above 4 nobody will be saved.

With regard to invincible ignorance the Church does not know which individuals or groups might be saved which is why it has no teaching on specifically who falls under this umbrella.
Personally, (and this is just my opinion - others may disagree) I believe very few will come under invincible ignorance. In this day and age of technology and communications most people have the opportunity to find out about Christ, his Gospel and his Church if they choose to do so.

This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church: Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience—those too may achieve eternal salvation. (CCC 847)

All this holds true not only for Christians, but for all men of good will in whose hearts grace works in an unseen way. For, since Christ died for all men, and since the ultimate vocation of man is in fact one, and divine, we ought to believe that the Holy Spirit in a manner known only to God offers to every man the possibility of being associated with this paschal mystery. (22)

How should one understand this?

(Please excuse my poor understand of how to post quotes and the like!)

 

[Jim_Baur]

I apologize.

This has gotten too complex for me.

In my understanding of Romans, Paul and Luke teach really clearly that Jesus says we are saved by His love!

How that happens, I believe, is answered often in the parables–Lost Coin, Lost Sheep, Good Samaritan, Sower and the Seed, and the like.

Also, Romans yells that the Power of God saves us from our individuals sins as listed in the first chapter. How to clarify all of it is way beyond my abilities. But God’s Power saves us.

 

[fhansen]

I apologize.

This has gotten too complex for me.

In my understanding of Romans, Paul and Luke teach really clearly that Jesus says we are saved by His love!

How that happens, I believe, is answered often in the parables–Lost Coin, Lost Sheep, Good Samaritan, Sower and the Seed, and the like.

Also, Romans yells that the Power of God saves us from our individuals sins as listed in the first chapter. How to clarify all of it is way beyond my abilities. But God’s Power saves us.

But He won’t violate our wills to do so. That’s been the point ever since Eden and the choice faced there. He won’t force us to love in return. And lack of love is probably the chief defining aspect of hell. God loves; God is love. He doesn’t force His creation to follow suit. He just gives us every reason and sufficient grace to do so.

**“At the evening of life we shall be judged on our love”. **
St John of the Cross.

 

[fhansen]

In an earlier post I had the impression that you implied that a person who died in a state of mortal sin did not go immediately to Hell but that what good they had done during their earthly life out of love for God was taken into account and they might be saved. Obviously you are not saying that.

I see-thanks Thistle. What *I *object to is a common enough tendency in Catholicism to reduce salvation to a formula: 1) being Baptized, and 2) just keeping under the radar for the rest of our lives by not having any unconfessed mortal sins on our souls before death. Properly understood and fleshed out this is true. Improperly understood it borders on a misunderstanding of God-of His nature and will for man-almost as someone who might rather see us in hell anyway. God’s love for man is immense-beyond our imagination. This doesn’t mean that He compromises justice or ignores sin. But, for example, the odds of an otherwise good and devout person slipping up, committing a mortal sin and being sent to hell, while technically possible, isn’t even at all likely. Consider the following teaching:

1037 God predestines no one to go to hell; for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end. In the Eucharistic liturgy and in the daily prayers of her faithful, the Church implores the mercy of God, who does not want “any to perish, but all to come to repentance”:

Father, accept this offering
from your whole family.
Grant us your peace in this life,
save us from final damnation,
and count us among those you have chosen.

 

[thistle]

But He won’t violate our wills to do so. That’s been the point ever since Eden and the choice faced there. He won’t force us to love in return. And lack of love is probably the chief defining aspect of hell. God loves; God is love. He doesn’t force His creation to follow suit. He just gives us every reason and sufficient grace to do so.

**“At the evening of life we shall be judged on our love”. **
St John of the Cross.

 

[Jim_Baur]

But He won’t violate our wills to do so. That’s been the point ever since Eden and the choice faced there. He won’t force us to love in return. And lack of love is probably the chief defining aspect of hell. God loves; God is love. He doesn’t force His creation to follow suit. He just gives us every reason and sufficient grace to do so.

I totally agree!

I agree with all of the dogmas of the Catholic Church.

God is all-powerful love. When He places His love in our soul, what His power does is beyond understanding.

Thus the way I began my questioning, How can one lose God’s love?

I believe this is a central issue of Romans!

 

[fhansen]

But He won’t violate our wills to do so. That’s been the point ever since Eden and the choice faced there. He won’t force us to love in return. And lack of love is probably the chief defining aspect of hell. God loves; God is love. He doesn’t force His creation to follow suit. He just gives us every reason and sufficient grace to do so.

I totally agree!

I agree with all of the dogmas of the Catholic Church.

God is all-powerful love. When He places His love in our soul, what His power does is beyond understanding.

Thus the way I began my questioning, How can one lose God’s love?

I believe this is a central issue of Romans!

God may even continue to love those in hell-they’re His creation after all-and He knows who they were created to be. But if we don’t choose to love as well, if we remain in cold, selfish pride and the sin it wallows in, then we apparently can get what we want.

 

[Jim_Baur]

Romans says He pours His love in us.

Thus the discussion for Romans should be centered around that love saving us.

His all-powerful love saving us.

How does His love saved us?

I wish to reconcile this with all of the other Catholic dogma!

 

[thistle]

Romans says He pours His love in us.

Thus the discussion for Romans should be centered around that love saving us.

His all-powerful love saving us.

How does His love saved us?

I wish to reconcile this with all of the other Catholic dogma!

God loves us but he does not force us to accept his love. His love only saves us if we die in a state of grace meaning at our death we have not rejected his love.

 

[Jim_Baur]

thistle:

I agree!