J
JCummings
Guest
Is Rome considered the City of God?
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S
SteakNPotatoes
Guest
Only if God ignores traffic signs.
J
JCummings
Guest
I was just wondering cause Psalms 87:3 says that Zion is the city of God. But I thought that Rome was declared the city of God.
M
mommyof4
Guest
I thought Jerusalem was, but what do I know?
K
kleary
Guest
L
LilyM
Guest
And loves graffiti -there seemed to be a ton of it when I was there.
J
JCummings
Guest
So the Catholic Church is the New Jerusalem??? I thought that the New Jerusalem was established after a new heaven and new earth were established when Jesus comes back for his church.
K
kleary
Guest
If you read the Book of Revelation in a new reformist interpretation you come up with that scenario. When Jesus comes back it will not be to “rapture away the church” before “a great tribulation”. Believe me that scenario was invented in the 19’th century. When Jesus returns it will be to judge all of humanity- and when the Antichrist comes if you are still alive at that moment you still will be here and all those in the world who “accepted Jesus as personal lord and savior” will also still be here.
Who are those “christians” worshipping the Antichrist and his image? The “born again” “protestants” who’s Lord did not come and save them from the Antichrist.
Beware my friend of wolves in sheeps clothing- Luther, Calvin, Zwingli and their so called heirs who even deny what they taught, particularly the perpetual virginity of Mary.
The fourth passage is Revelation 21:14, the New Jerusalem is said to have “12 foundations” with the names of the apostles.
Ken
J
JCummings
Guest
Rev 20-21 says that Jesus comes down and judges the earth, then the first heaven and the first earth passes away, and then the holy city, new Jerusalem comes down from God out of heaven.
For us to have the New Jerusalem here already would have to mean that Jesus has already dished out the final Judgment day. Which would mean that death and hell have already been cast into the lake of fire. A good man I know died yesterday, which means that death is still here.
For us to have the New Jerusalem here already would have to mean that Jesus has already dished out the final Judgment day. Which would mean that death and hell have already been cast into the lake of fire. A good man I know died yesterday, which means that death is still here.
K
kleary
Guest
Not really- again you are reading the Book of Revelation differently- as if it is written chronologically - and not as prophecy that can have multiple meanings.
I have to go now- maybe someone else can chime in here.
Ken
G
GoldenArrow
Guest
I do believe that BOTH the Church AND the New Heavens and New Earth that is formed on the Last Day (after the Earth is destroyed by fire) are the City of God / New Jerusalem.
Some writers add a third meaning – that the soul of Mary is the Mystical City of God and the New Jerusalem (because her body becomes the temple for God Incarnate). This takes on more of a mystical, figurative meaning. If I remember correctly, I’ve come across rosary meditations that mention Mary being the Mystical City of God and the New Jerusalem.
So, you’re both right — at least from what I remember off the top of my head.
God Bless!
Some writers add a third meaning – that the soul of Mary is the Mystical City of God and the New Jerusalem (because her body becomes the temple for God Incarnate). This takes on more of a mystical, figurative meaning. If I remember correctly, I’ve come across rosary meditations that mention Mary being the Mystical City of God and the New Jerusalem.
So, you’re both right — at least from what I remember off the top of my head.
God Bless!
J
JCummings
Guest
Rev 21:22 says that there is no temple in the New JErusalem because the Lamb is the temple of it. So mary could not be the temple of God, other than the fact that she bacame the temple of God along with the other 119 in the upper room when she received the Holy Ghost. 1 Cor 3:16 ye are the temple of God (because the Holy Ghost dwells in you).
L
LilyM
Guest
No - we are the temple of the Holy Spirit because HE dwells in us. We are temples of Christ because we receive His body and blood at Mass. But Mary is uniquely the Temple of Christ because he took his body from hers - she formed it.
S
Sabda
Guest
Let’s get out of Revelation and look at Hebrews.
Heb 12
[18]For you have not come to what may be touched, a blazing fire, and darkness, and gloom, and a tempest,
[19] and the sound of a trumpet, and a voice whose words made the hearers entreat that no further messages be spoken to them.
[20] For they could not endure the order that was given, “If even a beast touches the mountain, it shall be stoned.”
[21] Indeed, so terrifying was the sight that Moses said, “I tremble with fear.”
[22]** But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem**, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering,
[23] and to the assembly of the first-born who are enrolled in heaven, and to a judge who is God of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
[24] and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks more graciously than the blood of Abel.
[25]See that you do not refuse him who is speaking. For if they did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, much less shall we escape if we reject him who warns from heaven.
The writer of Hebrews tells his listeners that they HAVE COME to the heavenly Jerusalem. That must mean that in some way it’s already here.
Actually lets add Revelation to that now.
Revelation 21
[1]Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more.
[2] And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband;
[3] and I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling of God is with men. He will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself will be with them;
[4] he will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning nor crying nor pain any more, for the former things have passed away.”
[5]And he who sat upon the throne said, “Behold, I make all things new.” Also he said, “Write this, for these words are trustworthy and true.”
[6] And he said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. To the thirsty I will give from the fountain of the water of life without payment.
[7] He who conquers shall have this heritage, and I will be his God and he shall be my son.
[8] But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the polluted, as for murderers, fornicators, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their lot shall be in the lake that burns with fire and sulphur, which is the second death.”
[9]Then came one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues, and spoke to me, saying, “Come, I will show you the Bride, the wife of the Lamb.”
[10] **And in the Spirit he carried me away to a great, high mountain, and showed me the holy city Jerusalem coming down out of heaven **from God,
[11] having the glory of God, its radiance like a most rare jewel, like a jasper, clear as crystal.
2 Cor 11
1] I wish you would bear with me in a little foolishness. Do bear with me!
[2] I feel a divine jealousy for you, for I betrothed you to Christ to present you as a pure bride to her one husband. [3] But I am afraid that as the serpent deceived Eve by his cunning, your thoughts will be led astray from a sincere and pure devotion to Christ.
As we see from above, the Bride and heavenly Jerusalem are linked together. The Bride is the Church. So who is the heavenly Jerusalem? The Church! Now since we believe that the Church has several layers to her than in some way she is here and in some way she is still in heaven. But yes, the New Jerusalem is the Church.
Heb 12
[18]For you have not come to what may be touched, a blazing fire, and darkness, and gloom, and a tempest,
[19] and the sound of a trumpet, and a voice whose words made the hearers entreat that no further messages be spoken to them.
[20] For they could not endure the order that was given, “If even a beast touches the mountain, it shall be stoned.”
[21] Indeed, so terrifying was the sight that Moses said, “I tremble with fear.”
[22]** But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem**, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering,
[23] and to the assembly of the first-born who are enrolled in heaven, and to a judge who is God of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
[24] and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks more graciously than the blood of Abel.
[25]See that you do not refuse him who is speaking. For if they did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, much less shall we escape if we reject him who warns from heaven.
The writer of Hebrews tells his listeners that they HAVE COME to the heavenly Jerusalem. That must mean that in some way it’s already here.
Actually lets add Revelation to that now.
Revelation 21
[1]Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more.
[2] And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband;
[3] and I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling of God is with men. He will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself will be with them;
[4] he will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning nor crying nor pain any more, for the former things have passed away.”
[5]And he who sat upon the throne said, “Behold, I make all things new.” Also he said, “Write this, for these words are trustworthy and true.”
[6] And he said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. To the thirsty I will give from the fountain of the water of life without payment.
[7] He who conquers shall have this heritage, and I will be his God and he shall be my son.
[8] But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the polluted, as for murderers, fornicators, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their lot shall be in the lake that burns with fire and sulphur, which is the second death.”
[9]Then came one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues, and spoke to me, saying, “Come, I will show you the Bride, the wife of the Lamb.”
[10] **And in the Spirit he carried me away to a great, high mountain, and showed me the holy city Jerusalem coming down out of heaven **from God,
[11] having the glory of God, its radiance like a most rare jewel, like a jasper, clear as crystal.
2 Cor 11
1] I wish you would bear with me in a little foolishness. Do bear with me!
[2] I feel a divine jealousy for you, for I betrothed you to Christ to present you as a pure bride to her one husband. [3] But I am afraid that as the serpent deceived Eve by his cunning, your thoughts will be led astray from a sincere and pure devotion to Christ.
As we see from above, the Bride and heavenly Jerusalem are linked together. The Bride is the Church. So who is the heavenly Jerusalem? The Church! Now since we believe that the Church has several layers to her than in some way she is here and in some way she is still in heaven. But yes, the New Jerusalem is the Church.
H
havemercy
Guest
Indeed. I was really turned off by all of that ‘art’.
D
Damascus
Guest
Rome is a location, God is not limited to locations. However, Rome is what it is. And its not the Vatican City State. So, there goes what could have been a more interesting thread…
J
JCummings
Guest
Not bad, thanks for the word
surely when you say “the church” though you aren’t talking about the Catholic church.
Jesus told the Samaritan woman at the well that neither in this mountain or in Jerusalem the father would be worshipped. That she ignorantly worshipped God, and didn’t even really know who he was. Alluding to the fact that the Samaritans, after the fall of the first temple, and with Jerusalem left in shambles, established a new mountain to worship God from and built a new alter, aside from God’s ordained city. Then ignorantly worhipping God not as the LORD of all creation, but only as the god of the land.
Which is somewhat quite along the same lines as what the Catholic chruch did not long after the fall of the 2nd temple. When they changed God from being the Holy One of Israel to being a notion of a Holy 'Three". I beleive it was Justin Martyr that first coined the phrase “trinitus” alluding to god’s threeness. Which was then embraced by other philosophical theologians. So since as Jesus said to the Samaritan woman salvation is of the Jews. Salvation must still only be to those who Beleive that Jesus is the Holy One, the Father that they worship in THE church.
surely when you say “the church” though you aren’t talking about the Catholic church.
Jesus told the Samaritan woman at the well that neither in this mountain or in Jerusalem the father would be worshipped. That she ignorantly worshipped God, and didn’t even really know who he was. Alluding to the fact that the Samaritans, after the fall of the first temple, and with Jerusalem left in shambles, established a new mountain to worship God from and built a new alter, aside from God’s ordained city. Then ignorantly worhipping God not as the LORD of all creation, but only as the god of the land.
Which is somewhat quite along the same lines as what the Catholic chruch did not long after the fall of the 2nd temple. When they changed God from being the Holy One of Israel to being a notion of a Holy 'Three". I beleive it was Justin Martyr that first coined the phrase “trinitus” alluding to god’s threeness. Which was then embraced by other philosophical theologians. So since as Jesus said to the Samaritan woman salvation is of the Jews. Salvation must still only be to those who Beleive that Jesus is the Holy One, the Father that they worship in THE church.
M
Mijoy2
Guest
It’s a big thick book by St. Augustine.
I believe the City of God, is the spiritual city where the believer lives. The alternative city is the City of Man, or the wordly city. It is not a place but a spiritual existence.
I believe the City of God, is the spiritual city where the believer lives. The alternative city is the City of Man, or the wordly city. It is not a place but a spiritual existence.
L
LilyM
Guest
Uh huh - so what did Thomas mean by calling Jesus ‘my Lord and my God’? And what did Jesus mean by letting him?
Remember that John at least among the Apostles was still alive after the fall of Jerusalem, some of the others probably were too. Certainly enough people who’d had direct contact with both Christ and the Apostles and heard the story from their own lips.
If Christ never allowed himself to be acclaimed as God, if words were put in Thomas’ mouth that he hadn’t said - someone would have realised, and said something!
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