Rome sweet home

[EvanISOT]

Hi There,

I wasn’t sure whether to address this in this section, so forgive me if I made a poor decision.

I’m an Eastern Orthodox convert(my parish is ROCOR, which just happens to be a very hardliner Orthodox jurisdiction), and I’ve been so for a little over a year now.

For a plethora of reasons that I don’t care to re-divulge, I’m very hesitantly, tentatively considering that someday I may want to convert to Roman Catholicism. I’m not personal friends with any Catholic priests, so I was hoping you good Catholics would give me some advice, mostly of a practical nature. I’ll try to be as rational and to-the-point as I can:

1. When I converted to Orthodoxy, I was very convinced of its ascendancy over Catholicism spiritually and in truth, and I knew no Orthodox people. My motives were religious/philosophical. Now I have an entire Orthodox family that I’m very fond of; have a good relationship with the priests, etc., etc., ad infinitum ad nauseum. I don’t want to be bad friends with those people. So question #1 is; will I, of all necessity, be de facto (and possibly officially) excommunicating myself from the Orthodox Church if I cross the Tiber? I know I “excommunicate” myself every time I commit mortal sin; only to be reconciled through confession->absolution, but will this excommunication be of a more serious nature?
2. One thing I love about my parish in particular is the fact that we all have lunch together in the kitchen after Divine Liturgy. I understand that not all Orthodox churches do this…by the same token, do some Catholic churches have that?
3. One of my reasons for thinking of converting is to support my mother in her tentative decision to do so also…that, paired with my newly-found belief that Rome may not be an abomination after all, have led me to consider converting. However, as an unbaptized person, I understand she would be baptized. What about me? I’m a baptized Orthodox Christian. I know Catholicism acknowledges our Apostolic Succession and legitimacy of our Sacraments. What would “converting” look like for me?
4. I know I have other questions, and hopefully they’ll arise so I can present them. I sincerely thank you for considering these and helping me out!

Pax Domini,
Evan

 

[Fone_Bone_2001]

Hi There,

I wasn’t sure whether to address this in this section, so forgive me if I made a poor decision.

I’m an Eastern Orthodox convert(my parish is ROCOR, which just happens to be a very hardliner Orthodox jurisdiction), and I’ve been so for a little over a year now.

For a plethora of reasons that I don’t care to re-divulge, I’m very hesitantly, tentatively considering that someday I may want to convert to Roman Catholicism. I’m not personal friends with any Catholic priests, so I was hoping you good Catholics would give me some advice, mostly of a practical nature. I’ll try to be as rational and to-the-point as I can:

1. When I converted to Orthodoxy, I was very convinced of its ascendancy over Catholicism spiritually and in truth, and I knew no Orthodox people. My motives were religious/philosophical. Now I have an entire Orthodox family that I’m very fond of; have a good relationship with the priests, etc., etc., ad infinitum ad nauseum. I don’t want to be bad friends with those people. So question #1 is; will I, of all necessity, be de facto (and possibly officially) excommunicating myself from the Orthodox Church if I cross the Tiber? I know I “excommunicate” myself every time I commit mortal sin; only to be reconciled through confession->absolution, but will this excommunication be of a more serious nature?

That seems to be a question more for your Orthodox Church than for Catholics. I as a Catholic am not aware of the nuances of what your status as a convert to the Catholic Church would be from an Orthodox viewpoint…

1. One thing I love about my parish in particular is the fact that we all have lunch together in the kitchen after Divine Liturgy. I understand that not all Orthodox churches do this…by the same token, do some Catholic churches have that?

I’m sure some do. A lot of parishes have things like that, and if you couldn’t find one that did, I’m sure you could get something like that organized in the Catholic parish of your choice.

Still, I must say I recommend you do not let this factor into your decision. If you come to believe the Catholic Church is the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church founded by Jesus Christ, you should join it regardless. Likewise, if you continue to experience an honest conviction that the Orthodox Church is the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church founded by Jesus Christ, how could you consider leaving it?

1. One of my reasons for thinking of converting is to support my mother in her tentative decision to do so also…that, paired with my newly-found belief that Rome may not be an abomination after all, have led me to consider converting. However, as an unbaptized person, I understand she would be baptized. What about me? I’m a baptized Orthodox Christian. I know Catholicism acknowledges our Apostolic Succession and legitimacy of our Sacraments. What would “converting” look like for me?

You have already been validly baptized according to the Orthodox Church. Under no circumstances will any Catholic bishop require or permit you to be “rebaptized” (which is impossible anyway - there is “one baptism for the forgiveness of sins”).

Likewise, you would not receive Confirmation if you converted, since - I presume - you have already received Chrismation in the Orthodox Church, which is also perfectly valid.

I’m not sure what converting would look like for you, but the Catholic Church definitely acknowledges the validity of your baptism and Confirmation. Professing a belief in all that the Catholic Church holds and teaches should be enough in itself for you to start receiving the Holy Euchairst in a Catholic parish. I’m not sure, but it occurs to me that you may not even have to go to confession to a Catholic priest first, as we of course believe that the Orthodox have valid Confession too.

But I’m not sure: perhaps someone more familiar with the Catholic Church’s canonical standards for these matters should address this third question of yours, since they’d be able to do so with more specificity than I have.

 

[Fone_Bone_2001]

For a plethora of reasons that I don’t care to re-divulge, I’m very hesitantly, tentatively considering that someday I may want to convert to Roman Catholicism.

One more point I forgot to make:

You said you might someday convert to “Roman Catholicism.” Most people consider the term “Roman Catholic” to be synonymous with “Latin Catholic.” I hope you realize that if you were to convert, you would neither be pressured nor expected to become a Latin. Since you are now Orthodox, the ideal - if you converted - would be that you would be able to join a ritually and canonically similar church. So if you converted, you would hopefully/probably get to be in one of the Byzantine Catholic churches, not the Latin Church.

I think you probably already know that, but I just wanted to make sure.

 

[CountrySteve]

hey i would recoment the book by scott hahn called rome sweet home, very good book i loved it

 

[EvanISOT]

Thanks Fone Bone,

Still, I must say I recommend you do not let this factor into your decision. If you come to believe the Catholic Church is the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church founded by Jesus Christ, you should join it regardless. Likewise, if you continue to experience an honest conviction that the Orthodox Church is the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church founded by Jesus Christ, how could you consider leaving it?

Ditto, I appreciate your sincerity. I agree, but that’s my ultimate problem, I don’t know either way anymore…certain things have brought me more in agreement with Catholicism than Orthodoxy, but I obviously had a strong affinity with Orthodoxy originally. I acknowledge that they both may make claim to that title, though obviously one with more fidelity than the other.

But I’m not sure: perhaps someone more familiar with the Catholic Church’s canonical standards for these matters should address this third question of yours, since they’d be able to do so with more specificity than I have.

I appreciate the advice you did give; assuming all that is true, your assumption makes sense, hopefully someone else will pipe in also.

One more point I forgot to make:

You said you might someday convert to “Roman Catholicism.” Most people consider the term “Roman Catholic” to be synonymous with “Latin Catholic.” I hope you realize that if you were to convert, you would neither be pressured nor expected to become a Latin. Since you are now Orthodox, the ideal - if you converted - would be that you would be able to join a ritually and canonically similar church. So if you converted, you would hopefully/probably get to be in one of the Byzantine Catholic churches, not the Latin Church.

I think you probably already know that, but I just wanted to make sure.

No! Haha, Latin is one of the aspects I love about the Catholic church. I took Latin in high school, and I love the language far more than any Orthodox language. You see, the faith of my earthly fathers is Latin Roman Catholicism, not any Byzantine tradition or its spin-offs…the only reason I belong to a Russian parish is because I wanted to be Orthodox, and they’re stuck in the dead-zone of cultural obsession. That is one of the aspects of Orthodoxy that I don’t appreciate. That’s another great thing about Catholicism–all those Western Saints I’m missing out on. Fr. Seraphim Rose, a very anti-Catholic Orthodox Hieromonk, made it his sincere journey to find Western pre-schism Saints for Orthodox veneration; because he sincerely believed that the Catholic Church fell from Grace and Truth after the parting of ways. Nevertheless, his intentions were the best, I believe: to never neglect true Western Saints.

So, in any case, thank you for the suggestion .

Cum caritate in Domino Ieso Nostro,
Evan

 

[mcrow]

Thanks Fone Bone,

Ditto, I appreciate your sincerity. I agree, but that’s my ultimate problem, I don’t know either way anymore…certain things have brought me more in agreement with Catholicism than Orthodoxy, but I obviously had a strong affinity with Orthodoxy originally. I acknowledge that they both may make claim to that title, though obviously one with more fidelity than the other.

I appreciate the advice you did give; assuming all that is true, your assumption makes sense, hopefully someone else will pipe in also.

No! Haha, Latin is one of the aspects I love about the Catholic church. I took Latin in high school, and I love the language far more than any Orthodox language. You see, the faith of my earthly fathers is Latin Roman Catholicism, not any Byzantine tradition or its spin-offs…the only reason I belong to a Russian parish is because I wanted to be Orthodox, and they’re stuck in the dead-zone of cultural obsession. That is one of the aspects of Orthodoxy that I don’t appreciate. That’s another great thing about Catholicism–all those Western Saints I’m missing out on. Fr. Seraphim Rose, a very anti-Catholic Orthodox Hieromonk, made it his sincere journey to find Western pre-schism Saints for Orthodox veneration; because he sincerely believed that the Catholic Church fell from Grace and Truth after the parting of ways. Nevertheless, his intentions were the best, I believe: to never neglect true Western Saints.

So, in any case, thank you for the suggestion .

Cum caritate in Domino Ieso Nostro,
Evan

I’m not sure if you mean you’d want to go to a mass that was said in Latin but if you do, most of the Latin (Roman) Catholic Churches don’t sue Latin anymore. Or at least not much.

 

[James224]

Hi EvanISOT,

Hi There,

I wasn’t sure whether to address this in this section, so forgive me if I made a poor decision.

I’m an Eastern Orthodox convert(my parish is ROCOR, which just happens to be a very hardliner Orthodox jurisdiction), and I’ve been so for a little over a year now.

For a plethora of reasons that I don’t care to re-divulge, I’m very hesitantly, tentatively considering that someday I may want to convert to Roman Catholicism. I’m not personal friends with any Catholic priests, so I was hoping you good Catholics would give me some advice, mostly of a practical nature. I’ll try to be as rational and to-the-point as I can:

1. When I converted to Orthodoxy, I was very convinced of its ascendancy over Catholicism spiritually and in truth, and I knew no Orthodox people. My motives were religious/philosophical. Now I have an entire Orthodox family that I’m very fond of; have a good relationship with the priests, etc., etc., ad infinitum ad nauseum. I don’t want to be bad friends with those people. So question #1 is; will I, of all necessity, be de facto (and possibly officially) excommunicating myself from the Orthodox Church if I cross the Tiber? I know I “excommunicate” myself every time I commit mortal sin; only to be reconciled through confession->absolution, but will this excommunication be of a more serious nature?

My Answer: The Orthodox is the closest to us and we have much respect for them/you. I’m not sure how the Orthodox look at excommunication but it wouldn’t matter if you come into the Catholic Church.

1. One thing I love about my parish in particular is the fact that we all have lunch together in the kitchen after Divine Liturgy. I understand that not all Orthodox churches do this…by the same token, do some Catholic churches have that?

My Answer: Many Catholic churches have coffe and donuts after Mass. I go to the Latin Mass and we do.

1. One of my reasons for thinking of converting is to support my mother in her tentative decision to do so also…that, paired with my newly-found belief that Rome may not be an abomination after all, have led me to consider converting. However, as an unbaptized person, I understand she would be baptized. What about me? I’m a baptized Orthodox Christian. I know Catholicism acknowledges our Apostolic Succession and legitimacy of our Sacraments. What would “converting” look like for me?

My Answer: I’ve read in Paul Likoudis’ book on the Orthodox that many, in this country, protestants who convert to the Orthodox are of the fundamentalist types and would carry their predjuces against the Catholic Church into it. I would watch for that. I think your conversion would be fairly easy because I have a Russian Orthdox friend whom I have discussions with and they sound just like us! Also, what would make it even easier for you, is the fact that we have some 19 Eastern Rites which you could attend such as the Byzantine Rite and the Marionite Rite. Those 2 we have in my town. A couple of the differences is the Papacy and the Filoque.

1. I know I have other questions, and hopefully they’ll arise so I can present them. I sincerely thank you for considering these and helping me out!

My Answer: Great! Converting would be easy and you would not have to be Baptized again.

Pax Domini,
Evan

 

[Catholic_Dude]

BOOKMARK: CalledToCommunion.com

Check out this very current, hot discussion on Eastern Orthodoxy:
calledtocommunion.com/2011/06/kallistos-ware-orthodox-catholic-union/

 

[Fone_Bone_2001]

Thanks Fone Bone,

Ditto, I appreciate your sincerity. I agree, but that’s my ultimate problem, I don’t know either way anymore…certain things have brought me more in agreement with Catholicism than Orthodoxy, but I obviously had a strong affinity with Orthodoxy originally. I acknowledge that they both may make claim to that title, though obviously one with more fidelity than the other.

Of course. It can certainly be difficult to discern between them, because they both obviously go back to the Apostles in the sense that the autonomous churches belonging to each communion - Catholic and Orthodox - clearly do.

No! Haha, Latin is one of the aspects I love about the Catholic church. I took Latin in high school, and I love the language far more than any Orthodox language. You see, the faith of my earthly fathers is Latin Roman Catholicism, not any Byzantine tradition or its spin-offs…the only reason I belong to a Russian parish is because I wanted to be Orthodox, and they’re stuck in the dead-zone of cultural obsession. That is one of the aspects of Orthodoxy that I don’t appreciate. That’s another great thing about Catholicism–all those Western Saints I’m missing out on. Fr. Seraphim Rose, a very anti-Catholic Orthodox Hieromonk, made it his sincere journey to find Western pre-schism Saints for Orthodox veneration; because he sincerely believed that the Catholic Church fell from Grace and Truth after the parting of ways. Nevertheless, his intentions were the best, I believe: to never neglect true Western Saints.

So, in any case, thank you for the suggestion .

Cum caritate in Domino Ieso Nostro,
Evan

Ah, I stand corrected then! I had originally wanted to ensure that you knew you wouldn’t have to become a Latin, but if that’s what you’d actually want, that changes things.

 

[InternetWoman]

This came from the Vatican newspaper Zenit:

ROME, 16 OCT. 2007 (ZENIT)
Answered by Legionary of Christ Father Edward McNamara, professor of liturgy at the Regina Apostolorum university.

Q: What is the procedure for a person who was baptized Macedonian Orthodox and who now wants to be received into the Roman Catholic Church? — F.F., Toronto

A: In the vast majority of cases Orthodox Christians have been validly baptized, confirmed and received the Eucharist from infancy, and thus do not have to receive any of these sacraments.

Likewise, Catholic canon law allows a Catholic priest to administer the sacraments of Eucharist, reconciliation and anointing to Orthodox Christians if their own minister is unavailable or for other just causes. (Most Orthodox Churches, however, do not approve of their faithful availing of this possibility.)

For this reason Orthodox Christians intending to enter into full communion with the Catholic Church would usually be able to participate in the Church’s sacramental life even before their formal incorporation, either in the Latin rite or in an Eastern Catholic rite.

Prior to formal incorporation, they would still require a dispensation from the bishop before entering into marriage and a man could not enter into seminary formation. Nor could they receive any formal ministry.

The specific process for incorporating a baptized Eastern Christian is covered above all in the Code of Canon Law of the Eastern Churches, canons 35 and 896-901.

Canon 896 specifies that for those adult Christians (beyond 14 years) “who ask of their own accord to enter into full communion with the Catholic Church, whether as individuals or as groups, no burden is to be imposed beyond what is necessary.”

Canon 897 indicates that the Christian may be received “With only the profession of faith after a doctrinal and spiritual preparation that is suited to the person’s condition.”

 

[ConstantineTG]

Note that if you become Catholic, you will be ascribed to the Eastern Catholic Church equivalent of your Orthodox Church, and not the Roman Catholic Church. Which means you will have the same exact thing except you enter communion with the Pope. If you want to pursue Western spirituality, you would need further steps.

If you want communion with the Pope, then come as an Eastern Catholic first. Then freely explore Western spirituality and see if that is for you. If you are Eastern Catholic, you can receive Communion and all the Sacraments from any Catholic Rite, including the Latin Rite. And if you find that you like the Eastern spirituality better, then you can remain Eastern Catholic.

 

[CompSciGuy]

Note that if you become Catholic, you will be ascribed to the Eastern Catholic Church equivalent of your Orthodox Church, and not the Roman Catholic Church. Which means you will have the same exact thing except you enter communion with the Pope. If you want to pursue Western spirituality, you would need further steps.

If you want communion with the Pope, then come as an Eastern Catholic first. Then freely explore Western spirituality and see if that is for you. If you are Eastern Catholic, you can receive Communion and all the Sacraments from any Catholic Rite, including the Latin Rite. And if you find that you like the Eastern spirituality better, then you can remain Eastern Catholic.

This may be a little off-topic but I am wondering, aside from liturgy is there any difference between Eastern and Western Catholic Churches?

 

[EvanISOT]

Dear Fone Bone,

Thank you ;-).

Dear InternetWoman,

Thank you, that was very informative! I wonder how easy it would be to find out the reciprocal information from Orthodoxy; how they accept Catholics…I’d find that interesting.

ConstantineTG,

I appreciate the idea, but I wouldn’t even be considering Catholicism if it weren’t for my in-part being okay with Western spirituality/liturgy…so the two step plan would be entirely unnecessary.

Dear CompSciGuy,

printf("%s I’m pretty sure the Catholic Church has undergone a massive crisis with their Western Liturgy, which to some isn’t really a crisis at all. We stand throughout ours…we receive our Eucharist from a spoon,etc., etc., ad infinitum, ad nauseum, tons of differences.","What up dawg? " );

Peace,
Evan

 

[Monica4316]

Hi Evan,

If you convert, - then the EO will see it as you leaving the one true Church. But the Catholics will see it as you joining the one true Church. lol. It goes the other way too. Each believes themselves to be the original Church. It’s very hard to choose between them, because they do both have the Sacraments, - it all really depends on the Papacy. If the Papacy is true, then it’s the Catholic Church, if it’s not true, then it’s the Orthodox Church. Pray a lot and do research… try to just seek the truth that is most important.

As for how the conversion takes place, - for the Orthodox, you’ll just need to make a profession of faith, go to Confession and Communion. Your baptism and chrismation in the EO Church would be accepted. You would be Eastern Catholic, but since all Catholic churches are in communion with each other, you’d be able to receive Communion at Mass too. I’m Eastern Catholic but much of my approach to spirituality is Latin.

God bless

 

[Fone_Bone_2001]

This may be a little off-topic but I am wondering, aside from liturgy is there any difference between Eastern and Western Catholic Churches?

There are many differences in theology as well. Also, the twenty-two eastern Catholic churches are autonomous/self-governed. The pope wields his supreme authority less directly and less often in the eastern churches, since he’s not their patriarch (whereas he is the patriarch of us Latins).

Honestly, in most ways an eastern Catholic church will be faithful to its ritual and theological heritage. So, the Catholic churches that use the Byzantine Rite (I think there are fourteen of them) are very similar to the eastern Orthodox… the only big difference is that they are happy to be in full communion with the pope of Rome, and so (obviously) they do not consider specifically western/Latin theological developments to be problematic or heterodox, whereas their Orthodox counterparts generally do. But that doesn’t mean they themselves share with us Latins those western theological developments…

You would be Eastern Catholic, but since all Catholic churches are in communion with each other, you’d be able to receive Communion at Mass too. I’m Eastern Catholic but much of my approach to spirituality is Latin.

God bless

Excellent point. Evan, don’t be discouraged by the fact that you would be made an eastern Catholic if you joined - even if you never formally join the Latin Church, you could still worship with Latins, go to Mass in the Roman Rite, etc.

 

[CompSciGuy]

Dear Fone Bone,

Dear CompSciGuy,

printf("%s I’m pretty sure the Catholic Church has undergone a massive crisis with their Western Liturgy, which to some isn’t really a crisis at all. We stand throughout ours…we receive our Eucharist from a spoon,etc., etc., ad infinitum, ad nauseum, tons of differences.","What up dawg? " );

Peace,
Evan

Nice. I was a T.A. for a C programming class and it took forever to get my students to figure out how to properly structure a printf statement.

 

[EvanISOT]

Dear Monica,

Hi Evan,

If you convert, - then the EO will see it as you leaving the one true Church. But the Catholics will see it as you joining the one true Church. lol. It goes the other way too. Each believes themselves to be the original Church. It’s very hard to choose between them, because they do both have the Sacraments, - it all really depends on the Papacy. If the Papacy is true, then it’s the Catholic Church, if it’s not true, then it’s the Orthodox Church. Pray a lot and do research… try to just seek the truth that is most important.

As for how the conversion takes place, - for the Orthodox, you’ll just need to make a profession of faith, go to Confession and Communion. Your baptism and chrismation in the EO Church would be accepted. You would be Eastern Catholic, but since all Catholic churches are in communion with each other, you’d be able to receive Communion at Mass too. I’m Eastern Catholic but much of my approach to spirituality is Latin.

God bless

I appreciate your advice , straightforward and to the point; makes sense, also. Why would I have to be an Eastern Catholic? That makes no sense whatsoever. I’m not a cradle Orthodox, I’m a convert; why couldn’t I become a Latin Catholic, and what extra steps have to be taken for that? I find that an odd requirement if it’s truly the Catholic (universal) Church.

Dear Fone Bone,

Excellent point. Evan, don’t be discouraged by the fact that you would be made an eastern Catholic if you joined - even if you never formally join the Latin Church, you could still worship with Latins, go to Mass in the Roman Rite, etc.

I wouldn’t be discouraged at all, I’d be “put off” though. If the Catholic Church is so Catholic (the reason I appreciate it in the first place), then why would I, converting to the one Church, need to be labeled as Eastern or any identifier other than Catholic? And what kinds of hoops would I have to jump through to become a Latin Catholic? As I pointed out, my earthly heritage is Latin Catholic, I’m an Orthodox convert. Thanks in advance. By the way, what does that mean “formally join the Latin Church”?

Hey CompSciGuy,

I was the same thing ;-). Are you still in school? I just graduated a couple months ago; just got a job as a Java developer…did Objective-C before that; kind’ve funky.

Thanks,
Evan

 

[steve_b]

You see, the faith of my earthly fathers is Latin Roman Catholicism, not any Byzantine tradition or its spin-offs…the only reason I belong to a Russian parish is because I wanted to be Orthodox, and they’re stuck in the dead-zone of cultural obsession. That is one of the aspects of Orthodoxy that I don’t appreciate. That’s another great thing about Catholicism–all those Western Saints I’m missing out on

Just curious,

• how much of this did you know before you wanted to be Orthodox… particularly of the Russian variety? Or did your epiphany surface AFTER you became Orthodox?
• what did you originally convert from, and why?

 

[EvanISOT]

Dear Steve B,

I knew it all ;-), just kidding. I knew a lot about both the RC and EO Churches prior to being baptized into the latter.

It’s not a strong epiphany, but one nonetheless, and yes, after already having become Orthodox. Monica hit the nail on the head, it’s my thawing heart with regard to the Papacy that leads me to be more open.

When I converted, I was all about the very cloistered, shut-off traditional Orthodox attitude of antipathy towards Rome. I find it hard to be a loving person harboring such a philosophy, though I don’t doubt my parishioners are loving people notwithstanding their stance on Rome; many of them have Catholic family members, after all.

One of the big pros for Catholicism (IMHO), is the reverse of my point against Orthodoxy that you just quoted, and that’s it’s catholicism. So this concept of me HAVING to become an “Eastern Catholic” doesn’t sit well. If the church is Catholic, then no other identifier is required, and if it is, then Catholicism seems like a sham, but I’m hoping it’s a slight misunderstanding with my friendly iterlocutors on here.

My biggest stumbling blocks, if I may share them, to joining Rome:

1. Papal Infallibility–big surprise
2. No less important: the Immaculate Conception

So doctrinally, I’m very much more Orthodox, but having developed a truly catholic mindset, I’m more Catholic in my [ecclesiological] beliefs.

Thanks,
Evan

 

[steve_b]

My biggest stumbling blocks, if I may share them, to joining Rome:

1. Papal Infallibility–big surprise
2. No less important: the Immaculate Conception

So doctrinally, I’m very much more Orthodox, but having developed a truly catholic mindset, I’m more Catholic in my beliefs.

Thanks,
Evan

Re: your two stumbling blocks

If you hadn’t been taught by someone to think they are supposed to be stumbling blocks, would you have thought on your own to make them stumbling blocks?