Rome tells Anglicans: it's time to decide if you are Protestants or Catholics

[jay29]

Just what do you think you are accomplishing by slinging empty insults?

I do not defend many of the things happening in the Episcopal Church. I appreciate substantive criticisms (such as Cardinal Kasper’s remark). I do not appreciate polemical rhetoric indulged in just for the sake of being rude.

Edwin

Read the articles on this website:

virtueonline.org/portal/index.php

 

[Contarini]

Read the articles on this website:

virtueonline.org/portal/index.php

Again, not substantive. I’ve read a lot of material on that website. I agree with some things, and disagree with others, but I do not find the general tone of the website to be either wise or holy. If this is your source, no wonder you have a poisoned attitude to us.

By the way, I consider it rather rude to present a reading assignment instead of a substantive argument.

Edwin

 

[jay29]

Again, not substantive. I’ve read a lot of material on that website. I agree with some things, and disagree with others, but I do not find the general tone of the website to be either wise or holy. If this is your source, no wonder you have a poisoned attitude to us.

By the way, I consider it rather rude to present a reading assignment instead of a substantive argument.

Edwin

You consider it rude. When you put social activism AHEAD of the Gospels, that only spells trouble. Gay marriages come straight from the pit of HELL. There is no doubt they are backwards and nothing is holy about them. Liberalism is a cancer. The TRUE Gospel is the cure.

 

[mercygate]

Read the articles on this website:

virtueonline.org/portal/index.php

Oh please. This is more embarrassing to you than it is to a solid Anglican. The people posting on this thread, Contarini and GKC are both solid citizens, well aware of the problems in the Episcopal Church and not in any way defensive of any kind of moral dereliction, nor are they selling the Gospel out to a social agenda that excludes the Person of Jesus Christ.

Honestly, Chesterton was onto something when he said that he would have converted years earlier except for one thing: Catholics!

 

[tomarin]

You consider it rude. When you put social activism AHEAD of the Gospels, that only spells trouble. Gay marriages come straight from the pit of HELL. There is no doubt they are backwards and nothing is holy about them. Liberalism is a cancer. The TRUE Gospel is the cure.

just fyi, there’s an evangelical branch of the anglican communion that is as troubled by these things as you are. in fact it is growing tension between these two poles within anglicanism that puts the cardinal’s comments in perspective. you can read more about this (if you’re so inclined) here: catholic.com/thisrock/2007/0702fea4.asp.

taking this into account, it’s not really fair or correct (or charitable) to attack all anglicans or episcopalians as if they endorsed gay marriage.

 

[jay29]

Oh please. This is more embarrassing to you than it is to a solid Anglican. The people posting on this thread, Contarini and GKC are both solid citizens, well aware of the problems in the Episcopal Church and not in any way defensive of any kind of moral dereliction or are they selling the Gospel out to a social agenda that excludes the Person of Jesus Christ.

Honestly, Chesterton was onto something when he said that he would have converted years earlier except for one thing: Catholics!

I’m not embarrassed at all. Are those articles true or not? If I was Episcopalian, that Gene Robinson fiasco would have been the final nail in the coffin to bail out!

 

[jay29]

taking this into account, it’s not really fair or correct (or charitable) to attack all anglicans or episcopalians as if they endorsed gay marriage.

They should make a REAL STAND then. They need to call for the ouster of Schori and Robinson.

 

[chris_molter]

They should make a REAL STAND then. They need to call for the ouster of Schori and Robinson.

Don’t assume they aren’t. Anyway, GKC (IIRC) isn’t in communion with TEC and Contarini is quite probably involved in the Network or one of the organizations determined to remain as faithful Anglicans after whatever schism occurs within that communion.

We don’t like it when protestants try to tell us how to handle the heretics and goofballs in our Church, let’s let the faithful Anglicans clean up their own mess and pray for them in the meantime. (I think that’s what Cdl. Kaspar was talking about)

 

[GKC]

No doubt we are supposed to feel some sort of horror at this picture. Well, I don’t. (GKC no doubt does, but he’s not part of the Communion, as he’ll be quick to tell you.) And I’m deeply suspicious of any opposition to women’s ordination that derives primarily from an instinctive reaction to the sight of a woman in vestments. There are far too many less than holy reasons why one might have such a reaction.

Edwin

It isn’t horror. It’s sorrow.

GKC

 

[GKC]

Don’t assume they aren’t. Anyway, GKC (IIRC) isn’t in communion with TEC and Contarini is quite probably involved in the Network or one of the organizations determined to remain as faithful Anglicans after whatever schism occurs within that communion.

We don’t like it when protestants try to tell us how to handle the heretics and goofballs in our Church, let’s let the faithful Anglicans clean up their own mess and pray for them in the meantime. (I think that’s what Cdl. Kaspar was talking about)

As to me, you are correct. I’m what is known as a Continuing Anglican, of a group referred to, generically as the Anglican Continuum (figures). Folks like me begin to split from the official Anglican Communion maybe 30 years ago, beginning with issues related to the liturgy, later to females in sacerdotal garments, then the sexual agenda in all its splendor.

I would be surprised to learn that Contarini was connected to any of the groups actively involved in resisting the general trend of events in TEC, though he might find bits of it in error. He’s more of a stay and fight (metaphorically) type.

We differ on some points, he and I, but he is a man of principle. And more likely to yearn for a reconciliation between Canterbury and Rome than I (that’s by comparision; not absolutely).

GKC

 

[chris_molter]

I would be surprised to learn that Contarini was connected to any of the groups actively involved in resisting the general trend of events in TEC, though he might find bits of it in error. He’s more of a stay and fight (metaphorically) type.

GKC

That was me as well. I was lucky to be in Central FL with Bishop Howe and at a solidly orthodox Parish (who will likely follow the Bishop’s lead and not jump ship). I was even an aspirant to orders prior to my little Pope-ing episode.

Thinking about the letter more, I find it almost scary that it came from Cdl Kaspar. Perhaps his boss is leaning on him a bit…

 

[GKC]

That was me as well. I was lucky to be in Central FL with Bishop Howe and at a solidly orthodox Parish (who will likely follow the Bishop’s lead and not jump ship). I was even an aspirant to orders prior to my little Pope-ing episode.

Thinking about the letter more, I find it almost scary that it came from Cdl Kaspar. Perhaps his boss is leaning on him a bit…

Speaking only for myself, I wouldn’t be surprised to see Contarini following you, eventually. This is not a prediction, nor an exhortation.

GKC

 

[Contarini]

I’m currently living in the Diocese of Northern Indiana, which is moderately conservative. (I.e., the bishop is not involved in the Network, but supports the “Windsor Report” which called on the Episcopal Church to repent for the consecration of Gene Robinson.) I am very happy with Bishop Little and his general stance toward the current crisis, but I don’t know how long he will be able to maintain this mediating stance. Mostly, I have been taking advantage of my move to Indiana (which took me into a more conservative diocese and also involved a job at an evangelical college) to think as little as possible about the crisis!

Edwin

 

[East_and_West]

That’s what my friend the rector explained to me. She’s a far better person than the average Catholic who posts here, so I’ll take her word over the consensus here.

Incidentally: Who cares about the pope, or what he thinks? I don’t, and I’m sure no sensible person (and certainly no sensible Anglican) does. The pope needs to take care of the dismal state of affairs which is “universal” (little pun there) in his own church before passing his insolent judgment upon anyone else.

Anglicans, in general, act far better than Catholics do. They’re more virtuous, more tolerant, more realistic.

Nothing personal, by the way, because Anglicans are generally much cooler than Mormons too.

Best,

LaMar

And yet your “church” does not produce Mother Theresa’s or Padre Pio’s. Rather, its become a den of homosexuality.

 

[East_and_West]

This conversation is getting ridiculous. Its is an obvious fact of history that the Catholic Church goes back to Christ and his Apostles and another obvious fact of history that Anglicanism was founded by a CRAZY and lecherous king. Seriously people!!!

 

[Lepanto]

They should make a REAL STAND then. They need to call for the ouster of Schori and Robinson.

Why? Salvaging the Anglican/Episcopalian communion does nothing to rectify the divisions caused by the crimes of Henry VIII, Cromwell, Cranmer, et. al. back in the 16th century.

The purgation caused by Schori and Robinson and related issues may be a blessing in disguise. This may bring more Anglicans/Episcopalians back home to the Catholic Church than an army of Cardinal Kaspers ever could.

The only solution is for good people from that ecclesial community to reunite with the Catholic Church.

 

[GKC]

This conversation is getting ridiculous. Its is an obvious fact of history that the Catholic Church goes back to Christ and his Apostles and another obvious fact of history that Anglicanism was founded by a CRAZY and lecherous king. Seriously people!!!

Which is what is meant by being deep in history.

GKC

 

[Lepanto]

Which is what is meant by being deep in history.

GKC

This is exactly why I have “some” respect for Luther and Lutheranism yet none for Henry VIII and Anglicanism.

Luther was certainly in grievious error, but at least he was initally driven by theological principles, as opposed to the caesaropapist Henry VIII.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

But the “bridge” is burning and would soon collapse! Everyone has to swim now .

But see Macaulay, “Lays of Ancient Rome”, for how Horatius​

"…kept the bridge
**in the brave days of old." **

**Do people read Macaulay nowadays ? **

… the question is also asking if each anglican would remain “dalmatian” or “spotless”, figuratively…

we all know that the bride of Christ is spotless as snow… and that is the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.

##** Is that a dalmatian - or **

"[A] milk-white hind…" ?

**Perhaps the Song of Songs is more appropriate to the C of E: “I am black, but comely”. **

**If the C of E is the Hundred and One Dalmatians, that does rather imply that the CC is Cruella de Vil - which is probably not quite what you had in mind. **

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

You cannot obey two masters, either you obey the pope of the queen.

**This is untrue, & plays into the hands of those who assert that a British Catholic cannot be a loyal subject of the Crown. It is as false as the idea that one cannot be a loyal citizen of the US & a Catholic. **​

---

**Read Newman on this. **

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**If this falsehood were true, every Catholic would ipso facto be a potential traitor because of this two-fold obedience. **

Be hot or cold, never lukewarm, what you are doing is schizofrenic. If you are not in unity with Rome you cannot call yourself Catholic. As Anglican, you have no Eucharist, no confession, etc., so you are far away from Catholicism.