Rome tells Anglicans: it's time to decide if you are Protestants or Catholics

[Primrose]

The reason that they are at such a low ebb is because the Anglican Communion has been rapidly and assuredly distancing itself further and further from doctrinal orthodoxy.

Within recent decades, the Anglicans have approved abortion, contraception, female priests, openly homosexual clergy, same-sex “marriage”, have called into question the perpetual virginity of Mary, etc…talk about driving huge wedges!

How much further can the Anglican Communion drift into heresy and sin before it’s not even recognizably Christian? The ecumenical efforts of the past 50 years have proved largely to be failures. Cardinal Kasper is finally calling the Anglicans to wake up before it’s too late for any hope of reunification.

I have just come back from ‘Evensong’ in the local CofE church. My first time in over 16years. My Cof E mother (but hasn’t been to church in 16 years) brought up about women bishops and I said I don’t agree with it. And my mother jumped on me saying we were having a debate but basically telling me I was naiive and wrong. I became born-again in a charismatic church 6 years ago but am being drawn to Catholism (my 4 children are baptised Catholic, my ex-husband is a lapsed Catholic and hasn’t practised in over 20 years, so this is all with me and God). My trip to the CofE was kind of trying out if I could still hear and feel the presence of God in a conservative atmosphere. My mother was happy that I had gone to CofE but can’t understand where I’m coming from in not agreeing with women bishops in the Anglican church and not believing when I bring up scripture.

I suppose what I am trying to say is that there is going to be alot of opposition. The average lay person believes the Anglican church isn’t Catholic of religion but is catholic as in it’s meaning (universal). I know when I make the decision to become Catholic it is going to be hard with my parents!!! I wonder if this was God showing me that I could lose friends and upset family??? Sorry abit off subject.
Primrose:blush:

 

[Lilyflower]

The reason that they are at such a low ebb is because the Anglican Communion has been rapidly and assuredly distancing itself further and further from doctrinal orthodoxy.

Within recent decades, the Anglicans have approved abortion, contraception, female priests, openly homosexual clergy, same-sex “marriage”, have called into question the perpetual virginity of Mary, etc…talk about driving huge wedges!

How much further can the Anglican Communion drift into heresy and sin before it’s not even recognizably Christian? The ecumenical efforts of the past 50 years have proved largely to be failures. Cardinal Kasper is finally calling the Anglicans to wake up before it’s too late for any hope of reunification.

I have also noticed that it is not uncommon for some Anglican clergy to approve of their members being freemasons, which is not acceptable to most mainstream Protestant and Catholic.

 

[Lepanto]

IMHO, the prospect that the Anglican Communion will return to the fold is a pipe dream, a fantasy believed only by those whose livelihood and prestige rely on endless meetings, plane trips, photo-ops, and milquetoast “dialogue.”

The only solution is for sincere Anglicans to honestly look at the history and the issues and make the leap on their own, one at a time.

 

[GKC]

IMHO, the prospect that the Anglican Communion will return to the fold is a pipe dream, a fantasy believed only by those whose livelihood and prestige rely on endless meetings, plane trips, photo-ops, and milquetoast “dialogue.”

The only solution is for sincere Anglicans to honestly look at the history and the issues and make the leap on their own, one at a time.

This has been the normal RCC position, modifed slightly by the Pastoral Provision.

GKC

 

[Rocky]

I have just come back from ‘Evensong’ in the local CofE church. My first time in over 16years. My Cof E mother (but hasn’t been to church in 16 years) brought up about women bishops and I said I don’t agree with it. And my mother jumped on me saying we were having a debate but basically telling me I was naiive and wrong. I became born-again in a charismatic church 6 years ago but am being drawn to Catholism (my 4 children are baptised Catholic, my ex-husband is a lapsed Catholic and hasn’t practised in over 20 years, so this is all with me and God). My trip to the CofE was kind of trying out if I could still hear and feel the presence of God in a conservative atmosphere. My mother was happy that I had gone to CofE but can’t understand where I’m coming from in not agreeing with women bishops in the Anglican church and not believing when I bring up scripture.

I suppose what I am trying to say is that there is going to be alot of opposition. The average lay person believes the Anglican church isn’t Catholic of religion but is catholic as in it’s meaning (universal). I know when I make the decision to become Catholic it is going to be hard with my parents!!! I wonder if this was God showing me that I could lose friends and upset family??? Sorry abit off subject.
Primrose:blush:

I pray that your family will accept your decision, that your 4 children will grow in faith, and that your ex-husband will come back to his faith. God bless you, Primrose!

 

[thirdn6]

GKC,
I’m sorry for the word “sole”. Maybe I should have used “supreme”. I was trying to emphasize too much. But IMO it still a bogus claim that Anglicans have sacred traditions. It stopped when M Parker was installed as AC. And it just became as part of the “maskara” that Cranmer, Woolsey, et. al. to sell the “new” church to the English people.

Grace & Peace!

This relates to what I was writing earlier–Lepanto, as an Anglican, I have always been Catholic, but as a Catholic, I have never been Roman. I’m sure you’re bound to disagree. But, well, there it is.

This statement and others in your post got me thinking of something, and perhaps you could clarify. When you speak of the Church, to what are you referring? For the sake of the discussion, let me state what I believe it to be:

1–The community of believers (sinners and saints both) making up the broken body of Christ. (The Church)
and
2–A metaphor for or symbol of the new creation in Christ which describes for us the contours of the reality of our future relationship with Our Lord: that is, that we are “destined” to be the Bride of Christ. (Ecclesia)

In other words, my understanding is that Ecclesia is metaphorical/symbolic in that she represents the reality of the perfection of creation into which we (the Church!) are living by the grace of the Spirit–she is exemplified most perfectly in the Blessed Virgin: Child, Spouse, Mother.

When you write that the Church is not in need of reform or is perfect, I’m assuming that you’re speaking of the figure of Ecclesia, not, for instance, the Roman hierarchy (which is quite possibly imperfect and in need of reform)–and I’m in complete agreement. But it often seems to me that, rather than posit a real relationship between the Church as community and Ecclesia as ideal (that relationship being the Spirit), the Roman tendency is to confuse the two entirely (the hierarchy can do no wrong!), only to separate them out when it is convenient (in the case of scandal, for instance). Wouldn’t it be better not to confuse them in the first place? Wouldn’t it be better to recognize that the Church as community is bigger than Rome, and that the Spirit is guiding it into all truth, into the reality of Ecclesia? And wouldn’t that obviate the need of many Romans to deny that many Christians are part of the Church or are necessarily unclean for not being Roman?

I don’t expect answers to these questions. Just a few thoughts.

Under the Mercy,
Mark

Deo Gratias!

I am speaking of the infallible teachings and doctrines, the deposit of faith, the sacred tradition of the Catholic Church as TRUTHS and is pure because the Holy Spirit guides the Church to all truths. What’s in there CAN NOT be changed. We, as Catholics (Roman rite) MUST accept them to be truths. This is not the Church but teachings, contained in the canon if you will, which are truths in the same way as a law is not the same as lawyers or administrators.

You are right- members, from laity to the bishops, make up the Church. Some Catholics are also sinners. The Church doesn’t claim that all of her members, just because they are, will attain salvation. We are likened to that fish net that Peter and the other apostles cast into the sea and caught plenty and different kinds of fishes- some are good, some are bad that must be thrown away. But we have the holy sacraments to shower us with sanctifying graces (Be perfect as your Father in heaven is perfect).

Of course I abhor and condemn all these wicked, horrible abuses committed by some members of the clergy.

… now, as to the Bride of Christ, make a research and let me know what you find.

 

[GKC]

“GKC,
I’m sorry for the word “sole”. Maybe I should have used “supreme”. I was trying to emphasize too much. But IMO it still a bogus claim that Anglicans have sacred traditions. It stopped when M Parker was installed as AC. And it just became as part of the “maskara” that Cranmer, Woolsey, et. al. to sell the “new” church to the English people.”

Understood. IMO, you’re are mistaken. Most esp. about Wolsey (a little anachronism, there.) And* Apostolicae Curae*, which is based primarily on the circumstances surrounding ++Parker’s consecration, is a hobby of mine.

OTOH, I’m away from the computer for a day or so.

GKC

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Nota Bene: please do not confuse Britain with England - it confuses the history of the Reformation (for instance) horribly. Thank you for your co-operation.

United Kingdom= England, Scotland, & Wales
Great Britain= England, Scotland, Wales & Northern Ireland
British Isles= England, Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland## Egg-zackly (though doubtless the Channel Islands, Isle of Man, I.of Wight, Orkneys, Hebrides, & Shetlands & the remaining dominions beyond the seas fit in there somewhere too )

 

[thirdn6]

My mistake! It was Cromwell not Wolsey… so many Thomases!

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

I was Episcopalian once. It is basically the US version of the Church of England, but there are some differences. For now, the Episcopal church is within the Anglican Communion, but they seem to be going down a different path, so it’s hard to say if they will remain within the Anglican Communion.

Not waiting for these things to be all sorted out, and with the Episcopal Church going more and more “out there”, I became Catholic

Ah-hem: we Scots have also among us them that be Episcopalians - Anglicans in Scotland are not called Anglican either. Piskies have their own Primus: so they are not under the jurisdiction of, but in communion with, + Rowan Cantuar.​

I don’t what Anglicans in Ireland & Wales are called: the C of E was formerly established in both Ireland & the Principality of Wales.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

To G of G,

Let’s not complicate simple statements- my statements.

1. I said, the Catholic Church is teaching the fullness of truth with the guidance of the HS which is biblical.
2. Like you, most of us Catholics are sinners.
3. Anglicans are not members of the Catholic Church.

How is that not saying they are alien to Christ, &, to be blunt, damned ?​

They are members of one of the provinces of the Anglican Communion. They have the bible as their sole authority in matters of faith.

No - their theological method is like ours, in that their authorities are the Holy Bible, the Christian past, & reason. I believe the 39 Articles deal with this. (Other Provinces have their own symbolic books.)​

Now, you agreed that the CC is holy- but is without sin and always in need of reform.

**I don’t in the least believe it is without sin. I believe it is profoundly sinful, yet also holy. **​

The teachings and doctrines of the Church is not to be mistaken or judged as errors or sins which are to be attributed to its human individual erring members. The conduct and abuses of some members do not make the teachings and doctrines false.

If it needs reforms, it should only be effected by its members- not by members from any religion or denomination unless they convert first and become members of the CC. The deposit of faith is closed. Whatever had been declared as doctrines can no longer be changed.

**That’s the theory - the practice is not quite the same… **​

The members are always in need of personal reforms or transformations to draw them closer to God thru Jesus- not the Church!

The Church especially - unless it repents continually, how can we who are members of it do so ? For us to repent is for it to do so: unless our membership of it is suspended,or something of the kind, whenever we confess our sins.​

---

**If Isaiah (to name but one of the Prophets) could speak of the Jewish Church as “sick”, what possible ground is there to deny that the body in genetic continuity with it cannot be ? Has God ceased to be Righteous & Holy, & become a respecter of persons ? Surely not. And if not, then what reason is there to suppose that He winks at the sins of Christians when He abhorred the sins of the Jews ? **

That’s why I said, as members of the Catholic Church we can be washed clean, purged, and nourished again and again thru the holy sacraments until we become pure, unblemished, spotless in the eyes of the Lord- to be His bride. No matter how much a person is mired in the mud he can be washed clean. That is why we have valid priests even in prisons to attend to those who are in death rows (I’m talking about real criminals here) that they may convert in their hearts and be cleansed. No matter how much scrubbing you would do you can not remove a tattoo in your body. No matter what Anglicanism do its doctrines and teachings will always poison the minds of the innocents.

**Inadequate analogy - **​

**"**His Blood can make the foulest clean…"

- churches included. What you say amounts to saying that God cannot bestow grace on Anglicans, or work graciously through them. I know of nothing in Catholic doctrine or in the Bible that supports this.

Anybody can not say that one can become a member of Christ’s body without becoming a member of His visible Church- that is a heresy of individualism! And one can not say that it doesn’t matter which church one belongs so long as one profess that one is Christian- a heresy of relativism! If these statements are false, there is no reason for the Cardinal to ask Anglicans to decide whether they are protestants or ‘c’atholics.

Nothing, but nothing, can alter the fact that the primacy is Christ’s - not the Church’s. This is not negotiable. Besides, I have not said either of those things: it seems we are talking at cross-purposes. ​

If you are an Anglican pastor, or a minister, or a priest(?)- we have nothing to argue or discuss anymore. You have 7,000 plus posts in here and I see you as placing a “buffer zone” to those who are seeking the truth and swimming their way to Rome.

Anyway, I am a mere construction worker who happen to be a faithful Roman Catholic. We are building real bridges NOT “monkey” bridges.

God bless.

**I’m as RC as you are - that doesn’t mean I agree with the sort of theoloogy that makes a tribal fetish out of God But that is what limiting the gracious of God to us or to anyone else does: it cuts Him “down to size”, as though our limitations limited His ability to act. It belongs to God to show mercy where He Wills to show mercy - it is no business of ours to dictate to Him. This is bound up with His being the God of Grace: for mercy & grace have nothing to do with desert. If our deserts were to determine our position before God, not one of us, Church or individual or any other group of men, could stand. **​

**Catholic triumphalism only makes the credentials of the CC harder to see, not easier. **

 

[chris_molter]

I’m sure you’ll be able to cite at least a single reference to the Jesus character condemning homosexuality…

Good luck with that.

Ahh, the ol’ argument from silence.

Good luck finding a single reference to the “Jesus character” (whoever the heck that is) condemning pedophilia, rape, pollution, Nazism, waterboarding, etc.

Doesn’t mean those things get a from God.

 

[chris_molter]

1. Anglicans are not members of the Catholic Church.

This needs further nuancing. Anglicans (if validly Baptised) ARE members (albeit imperfectly joined) of the Catholic Church by virture of said Christian Baptism. To become FULL members of the Body of Christ (the Catholic Church), they would have to renounce any heresies and be received into full communion with those Churches in communion with the See of Peter.

 

[Contarini]

I have also noticed that it is not uncommon for some Anglican clergy to approve of their members being freemasons, which is not acceptable to most mainstream Protestant and Catholic.

Most mainstream Protestants have no problem with it. Even the very conservative Southern Baptists allow it. Some conservative Protestant traditions (including the Holiness movement from which I come and the United Brethren denomination that runs the college for which I teach–indeed this denomination split over the issue) do object to the Masons. But I would say that the majority of Protestant churches do not–not anymore at least.

Edwin

 

[Primrose]

United Kingdom= England, Scotland, & Wales
Great Britain= England, Scotland, Wales & Northern Ireland
British Isles= England, Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland

Egg-zackly (though doubtless the Channel Islands, Isle of Man, I.of Wight, Orkneys, Hebrides, & Shetlands & the remaining dominions beyond the seas fit in there somewhere too )​

the channel Islands, Isle of man and Isle of Whight are England and the Orkneys, Hebrides and Shetlands, Faroes are Scotland.
Primrose:thumbsup:

 

[GKC]

My mistake! It was Cromwell not Wolsey… so many Thomases!

Wilson’s book on Henry’s regime, IN THE LION’S COURT, is organised around the six Thomases: Wolsey, More, Cromwell, Howard, Wriothesley and Cranmer. Quite a coincidence. One for each wife, sort of.

GKC

Anglicanus Catholicus

 

[Contarini]

Egg-zackly (though doubtless the Channel Islands, Isle of Man, I.of Wight, Orkneys, Hebrides, & Shetlands & the remaining dominions beyond the seas fit in there somewhere too )​

the channel Islands, Isle of man and Isle of Whight are England and the Orkneys, Hebrides and Shetlands, Faroes are Scotland.
Primrose:thumbsup:

As a half-Shetlander by ancestry, I can tell you that most Shetlanders do not think of themselves as Scots. They are aware that Shetland was originally pawned to Scotland in lieu of a dowry and that the Scots illegally held on to it when the Norwegians later tried to redeem it. They don’t want to go back to Norway, but they see the Scots primarily as invaders. Many Shetlanders want autonomy of some sort. Even those who don’t still see themselves as something quite different from Scotland. I won’t claim that all do, but this is how many of my relatives talk.

Also, the Faroes belong to Denmark, not Scotland (they have the kind of autonomy that some Shetlanders are pushing for).

Edwin

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Most mainstream Protestants have no problem with it. Even the very conservative Southern Baptists allow it. Some conservative Protestant traditions (including the Holiness movement from which I come and the United Brethren denomination that runs the college for which I teach–indeed this denomination split over the issue) do object to the Masons. But I would say that the majority of Protestant churches do not–not anymore at least.

Edwin

**It may interest those OPs not aware of this, that the Presbyterians condemned Masonry in 1736 - just two years before the first Papal condemnation of 1738. **​

---

I’m amazed the SBs (very Tolkienian, that) don’t reject it.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

My mistake! It was Cromwell not Wolsey… so many Thomases!

In the language of “1066 And All That”, a Wave of Thomases ​

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Egg-zackly (though doubtless the Channel Islands, Isle of Man, I.of Wight, Orkneys, Hebrides, & Shetlands & the remaining dominions beyond the seas fit in there somewhere too )​

the channel Islands, Isle of man and Isle of Whight are England and the Orkneys, Hebrides and Shetlands, Faroes are Scotland.
Primrose:thumbsup:## **Of course - & all are ruled by Her Britannic Majesty the Queen **