Rome tells Anglicans: it's time to decide if you are Protestants or Catholics

[mercygate]

If being Catholic means that Anglicans must conform to the authority of Rome and the Pope, then no thanks. I will gladly choose being called a Protestant.

If you are an Anglican, it is clear that you do not have a wide experience of Anglicanism. Although the evangelical wing is strong, the anti-Catholic sentiments of that end of the spectrum tend to be far less well developed than yours.

When I came into the Catholic Church, my parish asked me whether “the Catholic Church is catholic enough for you.”

Go listen to that *Journey Home *show I linked to and hear what Fr. Peter Geldard has to say recapping his three decades of work with the Anglican-Roman Catholic International Commission.

 

[GKC]

“Why don’t we just accept the fact that the birth of Anglicanism was infidelity to holy matrimony of the once proclaimed as Catholic Defender.”

Because ( for one reason) to do so would be to ignore the history of the subject, and the system of impediments, decrees of nullity, and dispensations that were set up then to manage dynastic marriages, and matrimony as a sacrament. And, as Newman implied, being deep in history is a good thing.

GKC

 

[GKC]

I am not talking about the ones who are happily Episcopalian. I am talking about the ones who claim to have the True Presence, who pray for the Pope each Sunday, who are devoted to Mary, and teach a class on the Catechism during Sunday School. Why would they play at being Catholic like that? Am I correct that the obvious answer is that they have impure motives? I never got a clear answer from any of the clergy when I left my church (which is as described above). I did get accused of “abandoning” one of the priests, although the other one was very supportive of my decision. Someone also told me that he has a Catholic priest as his confessor. WTHeck? The Pope is absolutely correct in saying that it’s time to fish or cut bait.

I think rather it was that they were covinced they were Catholic. Sort of like my parish.

Anglicans can be like that.

GKC

 

[GKC]

Yes, and it’s sad to realize how far things have fallen apart within our lifetimes. It wasn’t that long ago that Pope Paul VI, moved by the emotion of the moment, took off his episcopal ring and gave to Bishop Ramsey when Ramsey was visiting in Rome.

And the two prelates set up the ARCIC, wirh such high hopes.

GKC

 

[mercygate]

I think rather it was that they were covinced they were Catholic. Sort of like my parish.

Anglicans can be like that.

GKC

That was me. One day I woke up, realized that I thought “Catholic”, prayed “Catholic”, believed “Catholic” – and that not to BE Catholic had, at that point, become sinful.

When I came into the Church, people got cranky when I referred to my incoming as my “submission” – but for me, submission is EXACTLY what it was because it meant abandoning (among other things) a lot of my “katholicity.”

 

[chris_molter]

That was me. One day I woke up, realized that I thought “Catholic”, prayed “Catholic”, believed “Catholic” – and that not to BE Catholic had, at that point, become sinful.

When I came into the Church, people got cranky when I referred to my incoming as my “submission” – but for me, submission is EXACTLY what it was because it meant abandoning (among other things) a lot of my “katholicity.”

Ditto. It’s difficult to admit to yourself and God that you were wrong in what you believed, but it’s a relief to let them go and humbly confess and then PROfess.

No one is held liable for beliefs held in good conscience because that’s what they were taught to believe, but once you start realizing some of those beliefs aren’t adding up… well… it’s an odd paradox that the more you know, the more responsibility you have.

Personally, I realized that I really objectively was NOT in communion with St Peter, or his successor, Pope Benedict (whom I greatly admired and respected as an Anglican), but most of all, that I wasn’t in communion with the great Anglican Saints whose intercession I sought (St Thomas Beckett, St Edward, St Anselm, and now St Thomas More) because THOSE men were Catholics in communion with the See of Peter. That rocked me. Add to that the fact that many (most??) Anglicans would consider my praying for intercession to be pointless at best or idolatrous at worst… well… It’s nice being able to know that my Church teaches definitively on things like the intercession of Saints and especially the presence of Christ in the Eucharist. I always remember Fr Al Kimel’s (an Episcopal priest who converted and was ordained as a Catholic Priest) maxim that I’m paraphrasing here: “If you can’t kneel before the Blessed Sacrament and say ‘My Lord and My God’ with absolute certainty that those elements ARE GOD, then you don’t believe in the Real Presence as a Catholic does”

 

[Deo_Volente]

Grace & Peace!

I am not talking about the ones who are happily Episcopalian. I am talking about the ones who claim to have the True Presence, who pray for the Pope each Sunday, who are devoted to Mary, and teach a class on the Catechism during Sunday School. Why would they play at being Catholic like that?

No one is playing at being Catholic. They are Catholic. That they’re not Roman Catholic seems to be what is causing you so much distress. That distress is appreciated, but unnecessary.

As a Roman, you are bound to believe in the nullity of Anglican orders and in the invalidity of our sacraments. That’s fine! That’s what you’re bound to believe. Anglicans are not so bound. Your decrees of nullity in this matter have much import for a Roman, but for an Anglican, not so much.

Personally (and I’ve written this before), the things that keep me from Rome are: 1) papal claims to infallibility and universal ordinary jurisdiction (both of which I see as outgrowths of unfortunate political circumstances, but that does not make them less distasteful); and 2) a culture of legalism (which I fear leads the Roman church to a practical–if not official–embrace of works-righteousness and a practical–and often official–paying of lip-service to charity). Because of point 2, however, point 1 can never be addressed (as it would throw the whole entrenched culture into question), and because of point 1, point 2 will never be reformed.

I’ve written earlier regarding the church as community or polity and the church as Ecclesia, spotless bride of Christ. It is my sincere belief that the Roman church polity is in serious error, but thankfully, spotless Ecclesia is not the sole possession of Rome.

Honestly, though, the only Church polity that can hold Rome responsible for its errors is Orthodoxy. Rome doesn’t respect Anglicanism, that much is clear, but it maintains a grudging respect for the Eastern Church. I pray for reunion. If this reunion occurs in my lifetime, I’ll be Roman in a heartbeat.

Under the Mercy,
Mark

Deo Gratias!

 

[GKC]

That was me. One day I woke up, realized that I thought “Catholic”, prayed “Catholic”, believed “Catholic” – and that not to BE Catholic had, at that point, become sinful.

When I came into the Church, people got cranky when I referred to my incoming as my “submission” – but for me, submission is EXACTLY what it was because it meant abandoning (among other things) a lot of my “katholicity.”

I surmise you are in the right place for you, now.

GKC

 

[GKC]

Ditto. It’s difficult to admit to yourself and God that you were wrong in what you believed, but it’s a relief to let them go and humbly confess and then PROfess.

No one is held liable for beliefs held in good conscience because that’s what they were taught to believe, but once you start realizing some of those beliefs aren’t adding up… well… it’s an odd paradox that the more you know, the more responsibility you have.

Personally, I realized that I really objectively was NOT in communion with St Peter, or his successor, Pope Benedict (whom I greatly admired and respected as an Anglican), but most of all, that I wasn’t in communion with the great Anglican Saints whose intercession I sought (St Thomas Beckett, St Edward, St Anselm, and now St Thomas More) because THOSE men were Catholics in communion with the See of Peter. That rocked me. Add to that the fact that many (most??) Anglicans would consider my praying for intercession to be pointless at best or idolatrous at worst… well… It’s nice being able to know that my Church teaches definitively on things like the intercession of Saints and especially the presence of Christ in the Eucharist. I always remember Fr Al Kimel’s (an Episcopal priest who converted and was ordained as a Catholic Priest) maxim that I’m paraphrasing here: “If you can’t kneel before the Blessed Sacrament and say ‘My Lord and My God’ with absolute certainty that those elements ARE GOD, then you don’t believe in the Real Presence as a Catholic does”

And I do.

GKC

 

[mercygate]

I surmise you are in the right place for you, now.

GKC

Not “now.” Forever.

 

[GKC]

Not “now.” Forever.

Fair enough. But I meant as opposed to “before”.

GKC

 

[mercygate]

Fair enough. But I meant as opposed to “before”.

GKC

Got it.

 

[natsclem]

Grace & Peace!

No one is playing at being Catholic. They are Catholic. That they’re not Roman Catholic seems to be what is causing you so much distress. That distress is appreciated, but unnecessary.

As a Roman, you are bound to believe in the nullity of Anglican orders and in the invalidity of our sacraments. That’s fine! That’s what you’re bound to believe. Anglicans are not so bound. Your decrees of nullity in this matter have much import for a Roman, but for an Anglican, not so much.

Personally (and I’ve written this before), the things that keep me from Rome are: 1) papal claims to infallibility and universal ordinary jurisdiction (both of which I see as outgrowths of unfortunate political circumstances, but that does not make them less distasteful); and 2) a culture of legalism (which I fear leads the Roman church to a practical–if not official–embrace of works-righteousness and a practical–and often official–paying of lip-service to charity). Because of point 2, however, point 1 can never be addressed (as it would throw the whole entrenched culture into question), and because of point 1, point 2 will never be reformed.

I’ve written earlier regarding the church as community or polity and the church as Ecclesia, spotless bride of Christ. It is my sincere belief that the Roman church polity is in serious error, but thankfully, spotless Ecclesia is not the sole possession of Rome.

Honestly, though, the only Church polity that can hold Rome responsible for its errors is Orthodoxy. Rome doesn’t respect Anglicanism, that much is clear, but it maintains a grudging respect for the Eastern Church. I pray for reunion. If this reunion occurs in my lifetime, I’ll be Roman in a heartbeat.

Under the Mercy,
Mark

Deo Gratias!

Oh, the Judge Mark…where do you get the power to judge Rome? From Christ? Or from Henry VIII? Are you not usurping the authority of Christ who alone was given by God the authority to judge?

Who will respect Anglicanism? It was born out of infidelity to sacred matrimony. It divorced itself from the true Bride of Christ. It killed Thomas Becket and Thomas Moore!

There is no Via Media. Come home to Rome! That’s the only way traversed by Newman.

Grace and Peace!

 

[East_Anglican]

I am Catholic.

Please don’t tell any of my Evangelical Protestant friends Isaid that.

 

[emeraldcoast]

As an Anglican, I don’t recognise much of the species in this description.

And certainly any Anglican should “care” what the Primate of the West says, on a given matter affecting the whole Church. It’s why we remember Benedict, as we remembered John Paul, in our prayers for all faithful bishops, by name, during Mass.

GKC

GKC,

Is this normally done the part about praying for Roman Catholic Popes by name? This is not something that I have experienced in the Episcopal Church. We do pray for church leaders but not the Pope by name each week.

Thanks for the insight!
God Bless!

 

[mercygate]

Oh, the Judge Mark…where do you get the power to judge Rome? From Christ? Or from Henry VIII? Are you not usurping the authority of Christ who alone was given by God the authority to judge?

Who will respect Anglicanism? It was born out of infidelity to sacred matrimony. It divorced itself from the true Bride of Christ. It killed Thomas Becket and Thomas Moore!

There is no Via Media. Come home to Rome! That’s the only way traversed by Newman.

Grace and Peace!

Anyone who studied (and who lived through) the Tractarian movement and the post-Tractarian recovery of Catholic roots in Anglicanism would have a great deal of respect for Anglicanism.

Let it be noted that the roster of converts coming to Rome today from Anglicanism includes some of the finest, best educated, most pastorally astute and grace-filled souls in the Christian world.

It would be an offense to the grace of God to disrespect the tradition in which they matured as sons and daughters of Our Lord.

 

[Deo_Volente]

Grace & Peace!

Oh, the Judge Mark…where do you get the power to judge Rome? From Christ? Or from Henry VIII? Are you not usurping the authority of Christ who alone was given by God the authority to judge?

I wasn’t aware that I was judging–just giving my opinions and beliefs. I don’t recall anywhere in my post in which I condemned Rome or in which I claimed to have authority over her.

I speak only as an observer, and I merely iterate my observations and opinions based on conscience, some historical knowledge, and given whatever discernment has been given me. I have no illusions that my opinions are worth much, if anything, to anyone apart from myself.

I hope, though, that in accusing me of judging you are not subtly attempting to rhetorically prevent me from using my discernment, or are suggesting that in conversations in which Rome is involved, disagreement from one who is not Roman is anathema and constitutes judgment of the Holy See. That would be absurd. I’m sure you’d agree. But that position would not be without precedent on these forums.

Who will respect Anglicanism? It was born out of infidelity to sacred matrimony.

I wasn’t aware that I craved the luxury of Roman respect for Anglicanism. I merely stated fact. Rome does not respect Anglicanism. That’s all.

Re: the reasons for Henry’s split, others who are more knowledgeable than I can disabuse you of your mistaken assertion far more thoroughly than I can.

There is no Via Media. Come home to Rome! That’s the only way traversed by Newman.

Re: the non-existence of the Via Media, I’m sure it gives you comfort to believe what you do.

Re: “coming home to Rome,” swimming the Tiber is not an option at this time, for the reasons I’ve stated. I could not, in good conscience, submit to the Bishop of Rome, believing as I do that he is primus inter pares rather than Supreme Pontiff and that the latter represents an unfortunate error born of political exigency.

Swimming the Bosphorous, however, may be an option.

Under the Mercy,
Mark

Deo Gratias!

 

[chris_molter]

Re: “coming home to Rome,” swimming the Tiber is not an option at this time, for the reasons I’ve stated. I could not, in good conscience, submit to the Bishop of Rome, believing as I do that he is primus inter pares rather than Supreme Pontiff and that the latter represents an unfortunate error born of political exigency.

Swimming the Bosphorous, however, may be an option.

Under the Mercy,
Mark

Deo Gratias!

I’ve noticed you consistently refer to “Rome” and “Roman” when referring to the Catholic Church. What do you make of the numerous Eastern Catholic Churches in full communion with Rome?

 

[chris_molter]

And I do.

GKC

ahh, yes, but does Anglicanism at large?

 

[GKC]

ahh, yes, but does Anglicanism at large?

Can’t speak for Anglicanism at large. Nobody can. Which is one of the problems.

GKC