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ConstantineTG
Guest
Er, no, not really. They are the same man. Books written by a Pope aren’t infallible, unless of course it is pronounced to be so.
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Dan_Daly
Guest
They are the same man, but they aren’t the same. You said “Pope Benedict doesn’t agree with you” I think you would agree that doesn’t carry exactly the same weight or meaning as “Cardinal so and so doesn’t agree with you”. The consideration given to the writings of a Pope vs a Cardinal are different, regardless of infallibility.
Pax and God Bless
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ConstantineTG
Guest
Of course a Pope will have to be ever more careful in what he says. But I wouldn’t just say there’s a huge difference when the same man is expressing a theological opinion.
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Dan_Daly
Guest
If he hasn’t expressed the same opinion as Pope, then it is possible that he no longer holds it, or that he still does but understands it is not in keeping with the teaching of the Church and thus he can not express it.
Becoming Pope changes a man. He is spiritually not the same.
I am not badmouthing Cardinals in the least. Just simply saying the writings of a Cardinal are different than the writings of the Pope.
-One is written by a Cardinal
-The other is written by a Pope.
Pax
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ConstantineTG
Guest
Of course I am not saying that becoming Pope is merely taking office. But of course you also have to factor in additional years of experience, more learning, and also more access to more information. At the end of the day, opinions are opinions. The Holy Spirit will guide him if he has to convey a teaching. But the Pope doesn’t lose his free will and thus can still have his own opinion. And everyone’s opinion can change over time regardless of they become Pope or not.If he hasn’t expressed the same opinion as Pope, then it is possible that he no longer holds it, or that he still does but understands it is not in keeping with the teaching of the Church and thus he can not express it.
Becoming Pope changes a man. He is spiritually not the same.
I am not badmouthing Cardinals in the least. Just simply saying the writings of a Cardinal are different than the writings of the Pope.
-One is written by a Cardinal
-The other is written by a Pope.
Pax
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Madaglan
Guest
This would make a worthy signature line.
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Hesychios
Guest
Hi Constantine,
To me it is also odd to see the position of some Eastern Catholics (although I am in sympathy). The church law is pretty clear. There is no 'high Petrine" nor “low Petrine”, one’s ‘view’ does not change the reality. The reality is there is only Ultramontanism vs Collegiality.
Right now (despite to some lofty sounding assertions to the contrary) Ultramontanism has a firm grip on the church, it has won the day as evidenced by the canons of the church. Many people think that is as it should be.
Well, traditionalist Roman Catholics are caught in a box. They do not like the direction the church has headed in but they see there is nothing they can do about it for the present, since it is a system they have always believed in and supported. As they see it, something has gone wrong, but what? It couldn’t be the Papacy, could it? “No, the Papacy was ordained by God, he intended it. It must be that these people are not real Popes.”
To me it is also odd to see the position of some Eastern Catholics (although I am in sympathy). The church law is pretty clear. There is no 'high Petrine" nor “low Petrine”, one’s ‘view’ does not change the reality. The reality is there is only Ultramontanism vs Collegiality.
Right now (despite to some lofty sounding assertions to the contrary) Ultramontanism has a firm grip on the church, it has won the day as evidenced by the canons of the church. Many people think that is as it should be.
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Dan_Daly
Guest
It would also not be true.This would make a worthy signature line.
Pax and God Bless.
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Dan_Daly
Guest
With charity I’d say, equating “traditional Roman Catholics” with Sedevacantism shows a lack of understanding of traditional Roman Catholicism.
Pax and God Bless.
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Hesychios
Guest
I didn’t bring it up, but but I could have phrased my response to be more concise.
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Hesychios
Guest
All bishops are Peter.
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Thomas_Redd
Guest
This whole thread really concerns me. This is why many bishops were and are concerned about allowing the Latin Tridentine Mass. Many people who for whatever reason gravitate towards that form, begin to believe that somehow it is better and more reverant and closer to the orginal “Breaking of the Bread.” Of course this is all erroneous. But are they being truly guided by the Church now? It doesn’t seem so.
In grade school, I attended thousands of Latin masses (daily) and served hundreds. I also have attended some recent Tridentine masses. For me the Novus Ordo is heaven sent. God actually is talking to me in my very being. In my view, the latin masses I attended in grade school were often hurried and incomprehensible. The recent one were in your in face “holier than thou.” Since the reforms of Vatican II, I have never once seen any real abuses in the Novus Ordo. Where are these wild masses? I think to a large degree the claims of liturigal abuses are very exaggerated on the internet. I saddened to see a split widening in the church, not a coming together in Christ’s Body and Blood.
In grade school, I attended thousands of Latin masses (daily) and served hundreds. I also have attended some recent Tridentine masses. For me the Novus Ordo is heaven sent. God actually is talking to me in my very being. In my view, the latin masses I attended in grade school were often hurried and incomprehensible. The recent one were in your in face “holier than thou.” Since the reforms of Vatican II, I have never once seen any real abuses in the Novus Ordo. Where are these wild masses? I think to a large degree the claims of liturigal abuses are very exaggerated on the internet. I saddened to see a split widening in the church, not a coming together in Christ’s Body and Blood.
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The_Old_Medic
Guest
If you choose to do that, then you are choosing to not follow your church, and to essentially break away from it.
This is the outcome of those fanatics that are advocating the Tridentine Mass. They are sowing distrust, and they are encouraging people to leave their church.
This is the outcome of those fanatics that are advocating the Tridentine Mass. They are sowing distrust, and they are encouraging people to leave their church.
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louis91766
Guest
Why then did the Pope approve of FSSP ?
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malphono
Guest
This thread has gone much too far off topic. It really should be closed.
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ThatOneGuy92
Guest
I’d have to agree. Unless this thread gets back on topic ASAP.
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Jack_Bauer
Guest
Me three, close the thread since its off topic now.
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TrueLight
Guest
Yeah, let’s close this thread.
But right before allow me to rant a little bit:
I cannot stand how traditionalists are consistently put down and made out to be far right, nostalgic weirdos.
As if it is wrong to want to have the same (or close to) the same mass that produced the countless of Saints, you all (including those who respond on the Trad, L&S & other forums) quote in every thread.
Rant over.
But right before allow me to rant a little bit:
I cannot stand how traditionalists are consistently put down and made out to be far right, nostalgic weirdos.
As if it is wrong to want to have the same (or close to) the same mass that produced the countless of Saints, you all (including those who respond on the Trad, L&S & other forums) quote in every thread.
Rant over.
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Dan_Daly
Guest
Amen.
I will say that the posters on the Eastern Catholicism forum seems to be very knowledgable and civil.
Pax.
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ConstantineTG
Guest
Not intending to derail an already derailed thread, but the form of Mass does not produce the saints. Its the faith in Christ. Saints are produced according to what Scripture and Tradition says. Like for example, we know that martyrs are saints because Christ promised that whoever loses their life for His sake will gain it. So if one is martyred for his Christian faith, then we are assured they have eternal life.
There are a ton of saints in the East and pre-Trent West that has never encountered the Tridentine form of the Mass. I think statements like this is why traditionalists are seen as " far right, nostalgic weirdos." Because the Tridentine Mass is made out to be some kind of magic pill that will cure all ills of the Church and make everyone who comes into contact with it into saints.
Give the Pauline Mass 500 years and lets talk again about number of saints it has produced then.
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