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jam070406
Guest
Keep going. I’m sure you can think of many more things to bash the Church on. Seeing it through your eyes reveals that it’s just a terrible institution. No good could ever possibly come from those awful Catholics!
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K
KathleenGee
Guest
Michael,
I am referring to dogmas defined by the Roman Church that are not accepted by the Orthodox.
And of course, people who give their lives totally to Christ in Holy Orders have more time exclusively for the Lord. There are spiritual benefits and insights the celibate life brings.
I am referring to dogmas defined by the Roman Church that are not accepted by the Orthodox.
And of course, people who give their lives totally to Christ in Holy Orders have more time exclusively for the Lord. There are spiritual benefits and insights the celibate life brings.
L
louis91766
Guest
Why did Jesus choose a married man as the first Pope? Why not follow the example set by Jesus ?There are spiritual benefits and insights the celibate life brings.
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Hesychios
Guest
Hi Kathleen,
… and Roman Catholicism also has married clergy, so it is not an issue. There is no ‘better way’ here. Whatever benefits are attributable to having celibates in the ranks of the church are common to both already.
Celibacy is not a dogma.Michael,
I am referring to dogmas defined by the Roman Church that are not accepted by the Orthodox.
I do not disagree in principle, that may be so but Orthodox also have celibates, at all levels of the clergy…And of course, people who give their lives totally to Christ in Holy Orders have more time exclusively for the Lord. There are spiritual benefits and insights the celibate life brings.
… and Roman Catholicism also has married clergy, so it is not an issue. There is no ‘better way’ here. Whatever benefits are attributable to having celibates in the ranks of the church are common to both already.
B
Bluegoat
Guest
You do realize that there are many priest-monks in the Orthodox Church?The Catholic Church provided the women and girls of Mexico the right to an education in the 1500’s, hundreds of years before Protestant America did.
I think there are special graces attached to the celibate priesthood, that bring them into a deeper spirituality that can grasp comprehension of Mary’s immaculate conception. Doesn’t mean that all the Latin theologians agreed either. But the celibate priesthood has its merits and insights.
Likewise it has come our way that there are Orthodox priests who had wished they hadn’t married so they could give their lives more fully to Christ and the gospel.
K
KathleenGee
Guest
Peter was married…but common sense tells us that his final years were so immersed with the Holy Spirit.
Celibacy is a discipline. St. John the Evangelist was celibate, and he produced a particular transcendent and deeply contemplative perspective. There were a number of witness of faith of ancient martyrs who wished to remain virgin/celibate for Christ, and were killed remaining so.
I take particular reference to the Catholic dogma of the Immaculate Conception. There were celibate theologians who were not drawn to such a belief, and there were celibate priests who did.
The Franciscans, whose spiritual practices and sensitivities were drawn from the Cappodocians, were those who had great sentiment of Mary always virgin, and her conception, immaculate.
I see the inclination of the Roman Church to further define and universalize our beliefs…and with this, a particular authority from God. Several Catholic priests have shared with me their contacts with Orthodox priests that there are those among them who would see the celibate life more able to give more freely to the sacraments and spreading of the Gospel.
Pretty clear I would think…
Celibacy is a discipline. St. John the Evangelist was celibate, and he produced a particular transcendent and deeply contemplative perspective. There were a number of witness of faith of ancient martyrs who wished to remain virgin/celibate for Christ, and were killed remaining so.
I take particular reference to the Catholic dogma of the Immaculate Conception. There were celibate theologians who were not drawn to such a belief, and there were celibate priests who did.
The Franciscans, whose spiritual practices and sensitivities were drawn from the Cappodocians, were those who had great sentiment of Mary always virgin, and her conception, immaculate.
I see the inclination of the Roman Church to further define and universalize our beliefs…and with this, a particular authority from God. Several Catholic priests have shared with me their contacts with Orthodox priests that there are those among them who would see the celibate life more able to give more freely to the sacraments and spreading of the Gospel.
Pretty clear I would think…
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Mickey
Guest
No. Not as clear as you think. Hesychios has already pointed out that Holy Orthodoxy and RCism have celibate and married clergy. Some say, (including Roman Catholics), that the married priest can get much assistance from his wife and children to help with the affairs of the parish. Also, a married priest is sometimes more in tune to council those married couples in his parish.Several Catholic priests have shared with me their contacts with Orthodox priests that there are those among them who would see the celibate life more able to give more freely to the sacraments and spreading of the Gospel.
Pretty clear I would think…
Being a married priest has nothing to do with “being able to give more freely to the sacraments and spreading the Gospel”.
K
KathleenGee
Guest
About Christ selecting Peter and not the others, you really would have to ask Christ why He picked Peter over other married apostles.
If Hesychios means that RC married clergy, there are former Episcopalian/Anglican married priests, as well as our awareness of celibate Orthodox priests.
The Latin rite upholds celibacy for a number of reasons. There was scandal in the past of adultery, divorce, infidelities, children born out of wedlock by RC priests…and the laity did not want to support these lifestyles. There were a number of celibate priests since the beginning of the Church.
And everyone is missing the point that it was celibate priesthood who defined dogmas. People are missing the point as well that there are Orthodox priests who can see how marriage is preventing them from serving Christ more.
Give credit where it is due…a celibate priest does totally deny himself, renounce himself in totality to Christ and spreading the Gospel. They come into a spiritual plane of totality of God that of which we have not experienced.
And the fact that we need one head, not two arguing ones. The papacy serves unity in the Church…One Bread, One Body…but with ‘two lungs’ as JPII once said.
Christianity is the greatest voting block in America…but its impact is no where to be found. Secular atheism rules.
For the sake of humanity and the unity of Christianity, we need one shepherd, one flock.
If Hesychios means that RC married clergy, there are former Episcopalian/Anglican married priests, as well as our awareness of celibate Orthodox priests.
The Latin rite upholds celibacy for a number of reasons. There was scandal in the past of adultery, divorce, infidelities, children born out of wedlock by RC priests…and the laity did not want to support these lifestyles. There were a number of celibate priests since the beginning of the Church.
And everyone is missing the point that it was celibate priesthood who defined dogmas. People are missing the point as well that there are Orthodox priests who can see how marriage is preventing them from serving Christ more.
Give credit where it is due…a celibate priest does totally deny himself, renounce himself in totality to Christ and spreading the Gospel. They come into a spiritual plane of totality of God that of which we have not experienced.
And the fact that we need one head, not two arguing ones. The papacy serves unity in the Church…One Bread, One Body…but with ‘two lungs’ as JPII once said.
Christianity is the greatest voting block in America…but its impact is no where to be found. Secular atheism rules.
For the sake of humanity and the unity of Christianity, we need one shepherd, one flock.
H
Hesychios
Guest
Since you pointedly ignore the many married Catholic priests of the other Sui Iuris churches it makes it seem as though you think the Latin rite is superior to any other Roman Catholic church.If Hesychios means that RC married clergy, there are former Episcopalian/Anglican married priests, as well as our awareness of celibate Orthodox priests.
The Latin rite upholds celibacy for a number of reasons. .
http://www.newbyzantines.net/byzcathculture/images/szekely_generations74.jpg
Three generations of married Catholic priests in the same family.
Not converts
http://www.newbyzantines.net/byzcathculture/images/szekely_children80.jpg
Married Catholic priest - not a convert
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Mickey
Guest
That’s an odd statement. Last I heard, Christ selected all the apostles.About Christ selecting Peter and not the others
And Eastern Catholics.If Hesychios means that RC married clergy, there are former Episcopalian/Anglican
Nonsense. If you are going to calumniate the married priesthood,you had better back it up with sources…and not hearsay and/or biased machinations.People are missing the point as well that there are Orthodox priests who can see how marriage is preventing them from serving Christ more.
C
ConstantineTG
Guest
And as shown in the past few decades, celibacy doesn’t really prevent a priest from sexual scandals. Divorce is not an issue with the priest. If the wife divorces, then the priest remains celibate for the rest of his life. Its a human tragedy, but its a sad reality that many people face today. At least he can be an example on those who divorce and want to remarry. I think some disconnect between people and their priests has been that priests are seen as superficial human beings beyond what regular, ordinary humans are. And when they show that they are in fact human beings like every one of us, we get angry at them for being human rather than compassionate.About Christ selecting Peter and not the others, you really would have to ask Christ why He picked Peter over other married apostles.
If Hesychios means that RC married clergy, there are former Episcopalian/Anglican married priests, as well as our awareness of celibate Orthodox priests.
The Latin rite upholds celibacy for a number of reasons. There was scandal in the past of adultery, divorce, infidelities, children born out of wedlock by RC priests…and the laity did not want to support these lifestyles. There were a number of celibate priests since the beginning of the Church.
I don’t see how my Eastern Catholic priest is prevented from doing his priestly duties. I know celibate RC priests and they pretty much live a life close to us secular men. They go to work (in the parish) and they have personal time where they do their own things. Some love music and play their guitars, some spend time with their family (parents, siblings), its false to think that celibate priests do nothing but do priestly duties and pray every waking hour. That would be more true with Religious Orders, but not diocesan priests. And in the East there are monastics which are essentially what the Religious Orders are, but are not in an organized way.And everyone is missing the point that it was celibate priesthood who defined dogmas. People are missing the point as well that there are Orthodox priests who can see how marriage is preventing them from serving Christ more.
As I have noted above, this is a great misconception. My current married priest, from my point of view, is far better than the celibate priests I have had in the past. I’m not saying marriage made him better, I’m saying that marriage does not make a priest worse.Give credit where it is due…a celibate priest does totally deny himself, renounce himself in totality to Christ and spreading the Gospel. They come into a spiritual plane of totality of God that of which we have not experienced.
K
KathleenGee
Guest
Sex scandals were around during the time of S. Catherine of Siena…and such actions did not lead to the Protestant reformation.
Four percent of priest abuse was homosexual, one percent, pedophilia; 95% of celibate RC clergy chaste…so 3-5% deviancy rate is about par with any social institution.
Again, we cannot deny the fact that a celibate, total consecration to Christ does have its benefits. And I am not even referring to authority at this point.
Four percent of priest abuse was homosexual, one percent, pedophilia; 95% of celibate RC clergy chaste…so 3-5% deviancy rate is about par with any social institution.
Again, we cannot deny the fact that a celibate, total consecration to Christ does have its benefits. And I am not even referring to authority at this point.
K
katherine2001
Guest
I agree, Mickey. Most Orthodox parishes are served by married clergy (though some are served by celibate clergy, including priest monks–which are monastic priests). I think that is good since they are often counseling married couple about marriage problems and about problems with children. It certainly helps if the priest actually has experience in those areas, because he is married himself and has raised or is raising children. In other words, he knows what he is talking about because he actually has experience in these areas.No. Not as clear as you think. Hesychios has already pointed out that Holy Orthodoxy and RCism have celibate and married clergy. Some say, (including Roman Catholics), that the married priest can get much assistance from his wife and children to help with the affairs of the parish. Also, a married priest is sometimes more in tune to council those married couples in his parish.
Being a married priest has nothing to do with “being able to give more freely to the sacraments and spreading the Gospel”.
W
Warrenton
Guest
From what I have read, the Greeks might be willing to acknowledge judicial submission in certain cases. It may be different with the Russians.The Orthodox beleive in the primacy of Rome. They do not beleive in the Supremacy of Rome. So their definition of primacy is one of honor and respect, not one of judicial submission.
Orthodox do not believe that the Church can change her understanding of doctrine as laid down by the Fathers, certainly without the full accord of the all the patriarchs convened in ecumenical council. Hence, they cannot agree with the filioque as it was put forth, nor, more recently, in the formulation of the dogma of the Immaculate Conception or papal infallibility. The whole theory that doctrine “develops” and is somehow revealed over time is deeply troubling to the Orthodox understanding.
How, they ask, can Catholics try to bind someone’s conscience to a belief that is different from what St. Ireneus or St. Chrysostom believed?
Thus, the Orthodox rejection of papal supremacy is not absolute, but it would take a reformulation on the Catholic side to harmonize the two views.
W
Warrenton
Guest
I think this is true. The same truth could also be stated: celibacy can make a good priest better, and marriage can make a bad priest worse. The same thing can be said for widows and widowers.I’m not saying marriage made him better, I’m saying that marriage does not make a priest worse.
The zeal for his flock is what makes a priest a good priest.
One problem with married clergy today is that many obviously are not begetting children in the numbers that one would expect. I read this on a Lutheran blog, and of course the people look to the minister and his wife as examples. Hopefully, this is not a problem with the Orthodox clergy.
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Hesychios
Guest
Complicating this is the unfortunate fact that while the Papacy was growing in influence in the west (post 1054) and asserting supremacy, it was already suspected of heresy in the east.…
Thus, the Orthodox rejection of papal supremacy is not absolute, but it would take a reformulation on the Catholic side to harmonize the two views.
It could be thought of as if the Nestorian Catholicos in Persia were suddenly claiming supremacy, it would be hard for most other Christians to take them seriously since they had already been generally dismissed as having lost their way, and discredited.
Likewise for the infallibility claims, which became formal much later and shocked many eastern Catholics as well as Orthodox.
V
Vico
Guest
Directly or indirectly. because then there was St. Matthias, replacing Judas.That’s an odd statement. Last I heard, Christ selected all the apostles.
…
K
KathleenGee
Guest
Again…Hesychios…the Papacy is growing in the West, as said a Jewish commentator…because .Pope Benedict is the only person speaking in absolute truth.
Today I heard him address his visit with the young people…and that they face a bleak future…you hear this all the time from very many sources…but the Holy Father is representing Christ to them vs the secular world’s reporting…good works and humanitarianism but without Christ.
The Holy Father is speaking as well in representation of all baptized Christians throughout the world.
His prominence is not coming from a greed for more power, but Divine Providence through the Holy Spirit appropriate to his office.
Today I heard him address his visit with the young people…and that they face a bleak future…you hear this all the time from very many sources…but the Holy Father is representing Christ to them vs the secular world’s reporting…good works and humanitarianism but without Christ.
The Holy Father is speaking as well in representation of all baptized Christians throughout the world.
His prominence is not coming from a greed for more power, but Divine Providence through the Holy Spirit appropriate to his office.
B
Bluegoat
Guest
Kathleen, I have to wonder what your post has to do with the topic. It seems you justlike to come into threads about priests of non-Catholic Christians and say they are not really Holy and do not understand the Immaculate Conception because they are not all celibate.
Which is totally bizarre, because Catholicism has MANY married priests, and the Orthodox (and even Anglicans) have many that are celibate. That is, both groups have many many celibate and non-celibate priests. It seems probable in light of that that differences over the Immaculate Conception spring from other sources.
From what I know in Orthodoxy, the preference is for parish priests to be married, and to have celibate priests be monastics - everyone needs a community. They consider those monasteries to be in many ways the heart of the Church, and there are lots of them, a whole state full of them even.
Whatever point you are trying to make here is based on spurious facts.
Which is totally bizarre, because Catholicism has MANY married priests, and the Orthodox (and even Anglicans) have many that are celibate. That is, both groups have many many celibate and non-celibate priests. It seems probable in light of that that differences over the Immaculate Conception spring from other sources.
From what I know in Orthodoxy, the preference is for parish priests to be married, and to have celibate priests be monastics - everyone needs a community. They consider those monasteries to be in many ways the heart of the Church, and there are lots of them, a whole state full of them even.
Whatever point you are trying to make here is based on spurious facts.
H
Hesychios
Guest
My point was that the growing claims of supremacy and infallibility were coming from a church which our predecessor eastern Christians were already pretty much convinced to be in error and beyond the pale.Again…Hesychios…
It should be no surprise then, that the claims were generally viewed as hubris and met with skepticism from the very onset. That still pretty much sums up most eastern Christians’ view of the matter.
I found online the 1848 exchange of letters between the bishop of Rome, Pio IX, and the Patriarchs of Holy Orthodoxy. It is an interesting read.
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