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Cruxis117
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What is Rome’s Challenge? I’m speaking with a Seventh Day Adventist, and I don’t have that many resources to understand some parts of their doctrine, etc. Apologetics resources would be helpful.
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GaryTaylor
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To worship on “Sunday” not Saturday.
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Trebor135
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Don’t you mean Saturday alone rather than Sunday or, after 4:00 PM, Saturday?
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Protector
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The following link answers your question comprehensibly:-
Code:
[www.romeschallenge.com/](www.romeschallenge.com/)
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De_Maria
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Protector
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Actually, the catholicapologetics.info link above has (IMHO) put a misinterpretation on the following text from 1 Corinthians as follows:
“Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I directed the churches of Galatia, so do you also. **On the first day of every week let each one of you put aside and save, as he may prosper/B], that no collections be made when I come.” (1 Cor. 16:1-2). Paul is saying, “EACH ONE OF YOU put aside and save…”. He is not referring to the churches as institutions with treasuries, he is directing each individual church member to "put aside and save (in their own home) as God had prospered them. You will note also that Paul says, “On the first day of every week…” so he cannot be referring to the churches as institutions. Then presumably the individual church members would take their individual savings to the church when Paul had notified those churches that he was returning. Apart from that criticism I found the article most informative, albeit a vehicle for the criticism of the SDA. That is no surprise however, because the SDA church is possibly the largest Sabbatarian church.
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PiousTemplar
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That webpage is disgustingly one sided and biased.
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De_Maria
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pablope
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Why do you want to disagree? Is not the HS guiding all to the same truth? Why is there a different understanding? Or why do you choose to understand it differently and for what purpose?
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JHow
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I’d be curious how you feel about Acts 20:7, in light of the above.
Also, on which day of the week did the resurrection take place?
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pablope
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1 Corinthians 16:1-4 (NIV)
1 Now about the collection for the Lord’s people: Do what I told the Galatian churches to do. 2 On the first day of every week, each one of you should set aside a sum of money in keeping with your income, saving it up, so that when I come no collections will have to be made. 3 Then, when I arrive, I will give letters of introduction to the men you approve and send them with your gift to Jerusalem. 4 If it seems advisable for me to go also, they will accompany me.
(KJV) 1 Corinthians 16
1Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye.
2Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.
3And when I come, whomsoever ye shall approve by your letters, them will I send to bring your liberality unto Jerusalem.
4And if it be meet that I go also, they shall go with me.
Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)
1 Corinthians 16
1Now concerning the collections that are made for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, so do ye also.
2On the first day of the week let every one of you put apart with himself, laying up what it shall well please him; that when I come, the collections be not then to be made.
3And when I shall be with you, whomsoever you shall approve by letters, them will I send to carry your grace to Jerusalem.
4And if it be meet that I also go, they shall go with me.
I am no scholar, but reading it plainly, I get the sense what Paul is exhorting, that collections be made ahead of time during the first day of the week. And when did Christians gather…during the first day of the week, then as it is now…Sunday…the Lord’s day…sunday…so that the collection is readily available to be sent to Jerusalem. It looks like Paul was being smart. And keep in mind, Paul’s epistles were written to already established Christian churches…and knew what Paul paul meant. No need to second guess his instructions, no need to infer a different meaning.
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TheSeventhDay
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"Rome’s Challenge" is an IRLA Reprint of a Roman Catholic study given in 4 sections in the Roman Catholic “Catholic Mirror” Baltimore paper, and the study then reprinted by Roman Catholic publishers under the title “The Christian Sabbath”.
Copies may be fully obtained online by using the google search engine, or the entirety may also be found in several pamphlets and/or books.
"FEBRUARY 24, 1893, the General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists adopted certain resolutions appealing to the government and people of the United States from the decision of the Supreme Court declaring this to be a Christian nation, and from the action of Congress in legislating upon the subject of religion, and remonstrating against the principle and all the consequences of the same. In March 1893, the International Religious Liberty Association printed these resolutions in a tract entitled Appeal and Remonstrance. On receipt of one of these, the editor of the Catholic Mirror of Baltimore, Maryland, published a series of four editorials, which appeared in that paper September, 2, 9, 16, and 23, 1893. The Catholic Mirror was the official organ of Cardinal Gibbons and the Papacy in the United States."*
In the “Rome’s Challenge” articles, we find such clearly overt and definite statements as these, “Examining the New Testament from cover to cover, critically, …” and “He never once hinted at a desire to change it.” “He”, refers to Jesus] and “Thus the Sabbath (Saturday) from Genesis to Revelation!!! Thus, it is impossible to find in the New Testament the slightest interference by the Saviour, or His Apostles, with the orginal Sabbath, but, on the contrary, an entire acquiesence in the original arrangment; nay a plenary endoresment by Him …”, etc.
Additional statements from Cardinal Gibbons in further material, such as found in “Faith of our Fathers” google books pagination 111, “The Church and the Bible”; “…is not every Christian obliged to to sanctify Sunday, and to abstain on that day from unnecessary servile work? Is not the observance of this law among the most prominent of our sacred duties? But you may read the Bible from Genesis to Revelation, and you will not find a single line authorizing the sanctification of Sunday. The Scriptures enforce the religious observance of Saturday, a day which we never sanctify.” and as such at the beginning in the Introduction it is clearly said, “…in which the doctrines of the Roman Catholic Church are expounded by one of her own sons.”
It [Rome’s Challenge] absolutely proved by Roman Catholic study and history [almost as good as any 7th Day Adventist bible study/history lesson] and from Scripture that The 7th Day is the Sabbath of the Lord thy God [Exodus 20; Deuteronomy 5, etc] and is indeed the eternally binding Lord’s Commandment [1 John 3:4], and that there was no commandment given by any for the first day to be kept in its place in scripture to be found. It clearly stated that only by authority of the Roman Catholic church [which assumes to itself a particular position on authority and power] did it transfer solemnity from the 7th to the first. The 4 articles printed also echo the very same thoughts of the Archbishop of Rheggio [Reggio] Gaspar de [del] Fosso in the Council of Trent.
Verification of the same may also be found in the Augsburg Confession of Faith of the same era.
You will also find similar statements in other Roman Catholic papers in later years:
"Now in the matter of Sabbath observance the Protestant rule of Faith is utterly unable to explain the substitution of the Christian Sunday for the Jewish Saturday. It has been changed. The Bible still teaches that the Sabbath or Saturday should be kept holy. There is no authority in the New Testament for the substitution of Sunday for Saturday. Surely it is an important matter. It stands there in the Bible as one of the Ten Commandments of God. There is no authority in the Bible for abrogating this Commandment, or for transferring its observance to another day of the week. For Catholics it is not the slightest difficulty. “All power is given Me in heaven and on earth; as the Father sent Me so I also send you,” said our Divine Lord in giving His tremendous commission to His Apostles. “He that heareth you heareth Me.” We have in the authoritative voice of the Church the voice of Christ Himself. The Church is above the Bible; and this transference of Sabbath observance to Sunday is proof positive of that fact. Deny the authority of the Church and you have no adequate or reasonable explanation or justification for the substitution of Sunday for Saturday in the Third - Protestant Fourth - Commandment of God." - Source: The Catholic Record, London, Ontario Canada, September 1, 1923.
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Fink
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This link goes to a useful piece of info:
catholicculture.org/culture/library/catechism/index.cfm?recnum=4209
***“On the day we call the day of the sun…” It
s there! Circa AD 155.*** AD 155 is the better part of 200 years before the time of Constantine who, according to the SDAs, changed the Sabbath to the day of the sun worshippers! :( The Apostles, themselves, changed the day. The Old Covenant was finished. On the island of Patmos, Saint John writes: "I was in the Spirit on the Lords day…": Revelation 1:10The early Church used the term: "the Lord
s day" to indicate the **FIRST** day of the week: not the seventh. The Catholic Church was "there": the SDA denomination wasnt.Ellen Gould White discounted the Church Fathers; and referred to them as “…the so-called ‘Church Fathers’…” (The Desire of Ages?)
Remember our Lord`s words: “He who rejects you…” That includes the successors of the Apostles down through the ages.
The Church
s teachings on Faith and Morals rest on three pillars: Sacred Scripture Sacred Tradition*** (Uppercase T)*** The Magisterium - the Churchs teaching authority.Peter was given the authority to bind and loose…
Supposedly relying on Scripture alone has resulted in 30,000+ denominations, and counting, each claiming to be Bible-based.
In any case, no Bible-reader is free of prejudice; and that certainly applies to EG White.
The Holy Spirit-guided Church sidesteps the prejudice problem. She can also trace her history, step by step, back to the time of Jesus and the Apostles.
This is worth reading, as well.
rosarychurch.net/consecration/justin.html
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CopticChristian
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Go to the second page of the non Catholic forum there is a long thread All about Catholics and 7 Day Adventists. You will see there that they have a very unusual belief system. You can read the posts of BTTG, now banned, a SDA. Pythons has some interesting information that will help you.
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CopticChristian
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Is this a SDA website?
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JHow
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The web site owner, “Maranatha Media”, does seem to feature the writings of Ellen White. hard to say who owns the site exactly.
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Protector
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Quote: The weekly Christian Sunday …did not at first generally become a substitute for the Bible seventh-day Sabbath, Saturday; for both Saturday and Sunday were widely kept side by side for several centuries in early Christian history. Socrates Scholasticus, a church historian of the fifth century A.D., wrote, “For although **almost all churches throughout the world celebrate the sacred mysteries [the Lord’s Supper] on the Sabbath of every week, **yet the Christians of Alexandria and at Rome, on account of some ancient tradition, have ceased to do this.”[2] And Sozomen, a contemporary of Socrates, wrote, “The people of Constantinople, and almost everywhere, assemble together on the Sabbath, as well as on the first day of the week, which custom is never observed at Rome or at Alexandria.”[3] Thus, “almost everywhere” throughout Christendom, except in Rome and Alexandria, there were Christian worship services on both Saturday and Sunday as late as the fifth century.(Kenneth A. Strand)…"On the day we call the day of the sun…" It`s there! Circa AD 155.. AD 155 is the better part of 200 years before the time of Constantine who, according to the SDAs, changed the Sabbath to the day of the sun worshippers!
The Apostles, themselves, changed the day. The Old Covenant was finished.
day of the week: not the seventh…
Quote:
Revelation 1:1-3
John…says he “was in Spirit in the Lord’s day,” in which he beheld what he afterward wrote. What is meant by this “Lord’s day”? Some answer, Sunday, the first day of the week; but I am not satisfied with this explanation…the Scriptures nowhere call it “the Lord’s day.” None of the Christian writings for 100 years after Christ ever call it “the Lord’s day.” But there is a “Day of the Lord” largely treated of by prophets, apostles, and fathers, the meaning of which is abundantly clear and settled. It is that day in which, Isaiah says, people shall hide in the rocks for fear of the Lord.…… And on that day I understand John to say, he in some sense was.
In the mysteries of prophetic rapport, which the Scriptures describe as “in Spirit,” and which Paul declared inexplicable, he was caught out of himself, and out of his proper place and time, and stationed amid the stupendous scenes of the great day of God, and made to see the actors in them, and to look upon them transpiring before his eyes, that he might write what he saw, and give it to the churches.
This is what I understand by his being “in Spirit in the Lord’s day.” (from The Apocalypse: Exposition of the Book of Revelation, Electronic Database. Copyright © 1998, 2003, 2006 by Biblesoft, Inc. All rights reserved.)
Sunday worship is widely thought to have as its’ origin the Feast of First Fruits, an annual Jewish feast that the Early Church adopted as a day of commemoration of our Lord’s Resurrection. It was never created to replace the Sabbath of the Lord [erroneously called "the Jewish Sabbath - “But on the seventh day is the ** Sabbath of the Lord thy God:…” (Ex.20:10 - D-R).]
For St Paul says, “But now Christ is risen from the dead, the firstfruits of them that sleep….” (1 Cor.15:20 - D-R).
Protector.
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Fink
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It
s Seventh Day Adventist, all right. In Australia, theres an SDA outfit called “Maranatha Ministries”: i received some literature from it!For some reason, the SDAs like to hide behind other names… eg “Signs Publishing Company” which publishes “Signs of The Times”.
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CopticChristian
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This is a typical ploy of the ever evolving Protestant denominations. You may want to study the ever evolving nature of the Baptists, Doctrine of Grace = Calvinism. Calling their Churches Saddleback = Baptist Church. Sometime spend some time searching Protestants changing the name of their churches to attract members. Kind of like the non-denominational ploy. You can start here.
adherents.com/largecom/baptist_namechange.html
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