Rome's Challenge

[TheSeventhDay]

This link goes to a useful piece of info [removed, see previous post for link]

***“On the day we call the day of the sun…” Its there! Circa AD 155.*** AD 155 is the better part of 200 years before the time of Constantine who, according to the SDAs, changed the Sabbath to the day of the sun worshippers! :( The Apostles, themselves, changed the day. The Old Covenant was finished. On the island of Patmos, Saint John writes: "I was in the Spirit on the Lords day…": Revelation 1:10
The early Church used the term: "the Lords day" to indicate the **FIRST** day of the week: not the seventh. The Catholic Church was "there": the SDA denomination wasnt.

Ellen Gould White discounted the Church Fathers; and referred to them as “…the so-called ‘Church Fathers’…” (The Desire of Ages?)
Remember our Lord`s words: “He who rejects you…” That includes the successors of the Apostles down through the ages.

The Churchs teachings on Faith and Morals rest on three pillars: Sacred Scripture Sacred Tradition*** (Uppercase T)*** The Magisterium - the Churchs teaching authority.

Peter was given the authority to bind and loose…

Supposedly relying on Scripture alone has resulted in 30,000+ denominations, and counting, each claiming to be Bible-based.
In any case, no Bible-reader is free of prejudice; and that certainly applies to EG White.
The Holy Spirit-guided Church sidesteps the prejudice problem. She can also trace her history, step by step, back to the time of Jesus and the Apostles.

This is worth reading, as well. [removed, see previous post for link]

Please allow me to requote from above:
"The Apostles, themselves, changed the day. The Old Covenant was finished.
On the island of Patmos, Saint John writes:
“I was in the Spirit on the Lords day......": Revelation 1:10 The early Church used the term: "the Lords day” to indicate the FIRST day of the week: not the seventh. The Catholic Church was “there”: the SDA denomination wasn`t."

Again, the entire point of the Rome’s Challenge document and research along with the additional provided material from Cardinal Gibbons, including the Council of Trent, with Archbishop of Rheggio Gaspar de Fosso and Augsburg Confession, is to show that no such thing occured by Rome’s own mouth. In point of fact, the “day” [that is to say the 7th Day the Sababth of the Lord thy God] has not been transfered, nor changed. Not by Christ Jesus, nor the Apostles/Disciples, etc.

The Roman Catholic Church claims authority to change and to institute feast days. It is this claim to authority that is proclaimed by Rome, and so even according to several hundreds of years of Roman Catholic historical documents, they admit that no such change of the day will be found in the scriptures. Rather the change came from Rome, it is a sign of her authority and power to do so, so it is claimed.

Several Doctrinal Roman Catholic Catechisms with Imprimatur and Nihil Obstat can also be cited over several years to prove the same.

In fact, please allow me to quote from Article III [Roman Catholic 3rd Commandment] from the current and official Roman Catholic Catechism from the Vatican’s own website:

**"Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor, and do all your work; but the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God; in it you shall not do any work.90

The sabbath was made for man, not man for the sabbath; so the Son of Man is lord even of the sabbath.91"

"90 ⇒ Ex 20:8-10; cf. ⇒ Deut 5:12-15.

91 ⇒ Mk 2:27-28." [PART THREE: LIFE IN CHRIST; SECTION TWO THE TEN COMMANDMENTS; CHAPTER ONE YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND’; Article 3 THE THIRD COMMANDMENT]
**

Please notice that the passage that is quoted for the Commandment is Exodus 20:8-10 and Deuteronomy 5:12-15. Absolutely fascinating that in this part of the Catechism the remainder of the Commandment is not quoted… Exodus 20:11. And does any know “why” it was done? I do, and I am going to show why…

BUT, even moreso, please notice that the Commandment of the Sabbath, clearly from Roman Catholic Catechism reads and is “the seventh day”. Notice also the Roman Catholic Catechism translation changes one very important point as well from the Hebrew, and instead of “the seventh day [is] the sabbath day of the Lord thy God”, it removes the definite article 'the"] and replaces it with indefinite “a”], thus saying, “the seventh day is a sabbath day…”. This allows Roman Catholic theology all the more room it needs… to negate a Commandment of God, being Jesus Christ, spoken from Mt. Sinai in awesome majesty and power.

[to be cont…]

 

[TheSeventhDay]

[cont from previous…]

Interestingly enough, here is what the Latin Vulgate [Exodus 20:8-11] reads:

**"memento ut diem sabbati sanctifices

sex diebus operaberis et facies omnia opera tua

septimo autem die sabbati Domini Dei tui non facies omne opus tu et filius tuus et filia tua servus tuus et ancilla tua iumentum tuum et advena qui est intra portas tuas

sex enim diebus fecit Dominus caelum et terram et mare et omnia quae in eis sunt et requievit in die septimo idcirco benedixit Dominus diei sabbati et sanctificavit eum

Remember that thou keep holy the** Sabbath day

Six days shalt thou labor and do all your work

But in the seventh on the Sabbath day the Lord thy God shalt do no work, thou, and thy son, and thy daughter, thy handmaid, thy servant, and your beast and the stranger that is within thy gates

For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day and hallowed it"
**
Here is also the Douay Rheims official translation [Exodus 20:8-11]:**

"[8] Remember that thou keep holy the sabbath day. [9] Six days shalt thou labour, and shalt do all thy works. [10] But on the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: thou shalt do no work on it, thou nor thy son, nor thy daughter, nor thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy beast, nor the stranger that is within thy gates.

[11] For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, and the sea, and all things that are in them, and rested on the seventh day: therefore the Lord blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it."
**
I wonder where they got the indefinite “a”] from? Merely out of thin air to suit the needed shift.**
**
And just in case anyone thinks that the passages of Deuteronomy will help out, they say the same, Latin Vulgate [Deuteronomy 5:12-15]:**
**
"observa diem sabbati ut sanctifices eum sicut praecepit tibi Dominus Deus tuus

sex diebus operaberis et facies omnia opera tua

septimus dies sabbati est id est requies Domini Dei tui non facies in eo quicquam operis tu et filius tuus et filia servus et ancilla et bos et asinus et omne iumentum tuum et peregrinus qui est intra portas tuas ut requiescat servus et ancilla tua sicut et tu

memento quod et ipse servieris in Aegypto et eduxerit te inde Dominus Deus tuus in manu forti et brachio extento idcirco praecepit tibi ut observares diem sabbati

Keep the** sabbath day holy, as the Lord thy God commanded thee:

Six days shalt thou labor and do all your work

that is, the Sabbath is the seventh day rest of the Lord thy God hath nothing in it thou shalt do no work, thou, thy son, and daughter of your servant and maid-servant, and an ox and the *** any beast, and the stranger that is within thy gates servant and thy maidservant may rest as thou hast

and a servant in Egypt, and remember that the Lord thy God brought thee out thence with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm therefore commanded you to keep the Sabbath day"

And again the Douay Rheims [Deuteronomy 5:12-15]:

**"[12] Observe the day of the sabbath, to sanctify it, as the Lord thy God hath commanded thee. [13] Six days shalt thou labour, and shalt do all thy works. [14] The seventh is the day of the sabbath, that is, the rest of the Lord thy God. Thou shalt not do any work therein, thou nor thy son nor thy daughter, nor thy manservant nor thy maidservant, nor thy ox, nor thy *, nor any of thy beasts, nor the stranger that is within thy gates: that thy manservant and thy maidservant may rest, even as thyself. [15] Remember that thou also didst serve in Egypt, and the Lord thy God brought thee out from thence with a strong hand, and a stretched out arm. Therefore hath he commanded thee that thou shouldst observe the sabbath day."

The indefinite article “a”] is completely ABSENT, NON-EXISTENT and is therefore fabricated out of thin air and from nothing, ex-nihilo, in the Roman Catholic Cateshism in that particular Article.

[to be continued…]

 

[TheSeventhDay]

[cont. from previous]

Again, from the Official Roman Catholic Catechism from the Vatican’s website, we notice again a replacement of the definite article "the’] with another indefinite article “a”], but interesting that it is amidst so may definite articles, “the”:

"I. The Sabbath Day

2168 The third commandment of the Decalogue recalls the holiness of the sabbath: "The seventh day is a sabbath of solemn rest, holy to the LORD."92

2169 In speaking of the sabbath Scripture recalls creation: "For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day and hallowed it.“93”

“92 ⇒ Ex 31:15.
93 ⇒ Ex 20:11.”

Notice that the passage cited in 92, is Exodus 31:15. Let us also see that passage again from the Latin Vulgate [Exodus 31:15]:

**"sex diebus facietis opus in die septimo sabbatum est requies sancta Domino omnis qui fecerit opus in hac die morietur

Six days shall work rest on the** seventh day is the sabbath of every one that shall do any work in this day holy to the LORD shall die"

And again from the Douay Rheims [Exodus 31:15]:

"[15] Six days shall you do work: in the seventh day is the sabbath, the rest holy to the Lord. Every one that shall do any work on this day, shall die."

Where is this indefinite article “a”] coming from as cited from the official Roman Catholic Catechism? It is again nowhere to be seen… a fabrication to suit the purpose to alter God’s Eternal Commandment, while none are paying attention.

Let us now briefly consider Revelation 1:10. Looking at the text itself and all surrounding context, yeah the whole of scripture, we find that absolutely nowhere is the “first [day] of the week” ever called “the Lord’s day”. We do, however, find that the 7th Day is the Sabbath of the Lord…

Genesis 2:2-3 [rested the seventh day, 3 times]; Exodus 20:8-11 [the seventh day [is] the sabbath of the Lord thy God]; Deuteronomy 5:12-15; Exodus 31:15; Isaiah 58:13 “My Holy Day”]; Matthew 12:8; Mark 2:28; Luke 6:5; etc. “Lord of the Sabbath Day” and “My Holy Day”]

The only Old Testament text that specifically and directly mentions the “first day” is Genesis 1:5. Nothing indicating that it would ever supercede the 7th Day Sabbath of the Lord thy GOD.

Here are all of the Texts on the “first [day] of the week” in the New Testament:

Matthew 28:1 oye de sabbatwn - eiV mian sabbatwn
Mark 16:2 kai lian prwi ths mias sabbatwn
Mark 16:9 anastas de prwi prwth sabbatou
Luke 24:1 th de mia twn sabbatwn
John 20:1 th de mia twn sabbatwn
John 20:19 th mia twn sabbatwn
Acts 20:7 en de th mia twn sabbatwn
1 Corinthians 16:2 kata mian sabbatwn

Sabbath, the 7th day, is always the culmination of the week in God’s Created order and is always referred to as such in all of scripture. Therefore, every single “first [day] of the week” text upholds the 7th Day Sabbath, and is undeniable evidence.

Luke, a gentile convert physician, uses the word “Sabbath” over and over again far after Jesus Christ had gone up.

Luke also in writing those passages never associates the “first” [day] with the term “LORD’s Day” [KURIAKE Hemera] at all. Also, the words “Commandment”, “Command”, “keep”, “remember”, “holy”, “rest”, etc. never appear in the same instance as the words “first” [day] at all for those who will advocate its shifting or changing in some way rather than complete negation or abrogation.

Luke was many times with Paul throughout his journey and never makes mention at all that Paul had at any point taught that the 7th Day was somehow altered, changed or canceled, or that the “first” [day] was the [new] Sabbath. Luke does however, mention [many times] that both he and Paul prayed, taught and entered into the synagogue [congregation] on the Sabbath, being the 7th Day of the LORD GOD [especially in Acts 18:4,7,11; for a total of 78 (52+26) Sabbaths or more; “… every sabbath … a year and six months …” and preached for Christians to continue meeting as such on the Sabbath “… persuaded them to continue in the grace of GOD …” Acts 13:42-44]. Though, choosing to leave the Jewish synagogue that would not accept, Paul goes to the next best place, a house associated directly adjacent to it, “joined hard”.

[to be continued…]

 

[CopticChristian]

Please allow me to requote from above:
"The Apostles, themselves, changed the day. The Old Covenant was finished.
On the island of Patmos, Saint John writes:
“I was in the Spirit on the Lords day......": Revelation 1:10 The early Church used the term: "the Lords day” to indicate the FIRST day of the week: not the seventh. The Catholic Church was “there”: the SDA denomination wasn`t."

Again, the entire point of the Rome’s Challenge document and research along with the additional provided material from Cardinal Gibbons, including the Council of Trent, with Archbishop of Rheggio Gaspar de Fosso and Augsburg Confession, is to show that no such thing occured by Rome’s own mouth. In point of fact, the “day” [that is to say the 7th Day the Sababth of the Lord thy God] has not been transfered, nor changed. Not by Chirst Jesus, nor the Apstles/Disciples, etc.

The Roman Catholic Church claims authority to change and to institute feast days. It is this claim to authority that is proclaimed by Rome, and so even according to several hundreds of years of Roman Catholic historical documents, they admit that no such change of the day will be found in the scriptures. Rather the change came from Rome, it is a sign of her authority and power to do so, so it is claimed.

Several Doctrinal Roman Catholic Catechisms with Imprimatur and Nihil Obstat can also be cited over several years to prove the same.

In fact, please allow me to quote from Article III [Roman Catholic 3rd Commandment] from the current and official Roman Catholic Catechism from the Vatican’s own website:

"Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor, and do all your work; but the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God; in it you shall not do any work.90

The sabbath was made for man, not man for the sabbath; so the Son of Man is lord even of the sabbath.91"

"90 ⇒ Ex 20:8-10; cf. ⇒ Deut 5:12-15.

91 ⇒ Mk 2:27-28." [PART THREE: LIFE IN CHRIST; SECTION TWO THE TEN COMMANDMENTS; CHAPTER ONE YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND’; Article 3 THE THIRD COMMANDMENT]

Please notice that the passage that is quoted for the Commandment us Exodus 20:8-10 and Deuteronomy 5:12-15. Absolutely fascinating that in this part of the Catechism the remainder of the Commandment is not quoted… Exodus 20:11. And does any know “why” it was done? I do, and I am going to show why…

BUT, even moreso, please notice that the Commandment of the Sabbath, clearly from Roman Catholic Catechism reads and is “the seventh day”. Notice also the Roman Catholic Catechism translation changes one very important point as well from the Hebrew, and instead of “the seventh day [is] the sabbath day of the Lord thy God”, it removes the definite article 'the"] and replaces it with indefinite “a”], thus saying, “the seventh day is a sabbath day…”. This allows Roman Catholic theology all the more room it needs… to negate a Commandment of God, being Jesus Christ, sopken from Mt. Sinai in awesome majesty and power.

[to be cont…]

You may want to reconsider that Luther does not hold any weight since he left. The other thing is that presently the OHCAC has services on Saturday and Sunday. The Saturday service at 5pm satisfies the Sunday obligation. So as far as I am concerned you are correct. We keep the Sabbath Saturday and Sunday. It is like that in the OHCAC, it is not either or it is both and. So Rome has provided a way to keep the Sabbath on Saturday and Sunday. If all of the 7th day adventists convert to Roman Catholicism they can keep their worship on Saturday. Perhaps Rome is just looking ahead.

 

[TheSeventhDay]

[cont. from previous…]

Another witness is Paul himself:

Paul, himself also, states that he, “… fully preached the Gospel of CHRIST…” being “… committed to …” his “… trust …” which was “… not after man …” and that “… if any other Gospel …”, being brought in by another [man or **"… angel from heaven …"], was preached, then they [who preached the ‘not’ gospel] were to “… be accursed …”.

See Matthew 1:21. For Jesus came to save all people “from their sins” and “sin is the transgression of the law” [1 John 3:4]

Paul states, speaking of the Covenant that was made, “Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though [it be] but a man’s covenant, yet [if it be] confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.” [Galatians 3:15].

This Covenant was confirmed at the “Last Supper” [what is called Thursday night; aka “Maundy [Holy] Thursday”] which means that nothing may be removed [Luke 23:56, “Sabbath according to the commandment”] and nothing may be added “first” [day], is days far too late] once confirmed by the death [on what we would call Friday afternoon; aka “Good Friday”] of the Testator - CHRIST JESUS [Hebrews 10:29].

The only way to change/ratify the Covenant would be for CHRIST JESUS to die again [Hebrews 9:16] and shed additional blood [Hebrews 12:4]. And we know that CHRIST JESUS “once for all” [Hebrews 10:10] paid the redemption price and “dieth no more” [Romans 6:9], and is “alive for evermore” [Revelation 1:18].

Scripture says:

Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar. [Proverbs 30:6]

…also of the Ten Commandments…

Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish [ought] from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you. [Deuteronomy 4:2]

…and in Revelation again [which covers the **“Everlasting Gospel” from Creation to Re-Creation, Beginning to End]…

**For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: [Revelation 22:18]

And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and [from] the things which are written in this book. [Revelation 22:19]**

The 7th Day Sabbath has not changed to another day “first [day] of the week” or any other], nor been destroyed, not been abrogated, nor altered, etc. It stands as the memorial and “sign” to the “very good” Creation of GOD in the beginning, being made a blessing and sanctified for man and it stands for the redemption of man from sin and his rest from sin. Christ Rested on the 7th Day in Creation and on the 7th Day in Redemption and they are forever linked.

Another aspect that we should take into consideration is the fact that in the weekly instances of both JESUS and Paul it is recorded that they went into the synagogue [meaning: gathering; congregation] on the Sabbath Day [the 7th Day], as their “custom” [Luke 4:16; JESUS] and “manner” [Acts 17:2; Paul] was.

Not in a single instance in the scriptures is there such a place where it was the “custom” or “manner” of any Christian [or Jew for that matter] to keep Sabbath of the Lord thy God on the “first” [day] of the week, nor their “custom” nor “manner” to teach its transgression or abrogation/negation, for to do any such things would be to sin in direct rebellion in spite of the Grace of Christ Jesus and **“crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put [him] to an open shame.” [Hebrews 6:6]
**
Christ Jesus died for our sins, sin is the transgression of the Law.

[to be continued…]

 

[TheSeventhDay]

You may want to reconsider that Luther does not hold any weight since he left. The other thing is that presently the OHCAC has services on Saturday and Sunday. The Saturday service at 5pm satisfies the Sunday obligation. So as far as I am concerned you are correct. We keep the Sabbath Saturday and Sunday. It is like that in the OHCAC, it is not either or it is both and. So Rome has provided a way to keep the Sabbath on Saturday and Sunday. If all of the 7th day adventists convert to Roman Catholicism they can keep their worship on Saturday. Perhaps Rome is just looking ahead.

The Augsburg confession, the Protestant articles, was cited in direct evidence of what they knew ROME believed at the time of the Council of Trent era and teaches concerning the subject. Read their articles carefully. It is historical evidence. Shall they be cited?

 

[CopticChristian]

The Augsburg confession, the Protestant articles, was cited in direct evidence of what they knew ROME believed at the time of the Council of Trent era and teaches concerning the subject. Read their articles carefully. It is historical evidence. Shall they be cited?

It would not matter what you cited outside of the Catholic Church. Rome has declared that worship can take place on Saturday and Sunday. If you choose to be Catholic you can continue to worship on Saturday.:thumbsup:

 

[TheSeventhDay]

It would not matter what you cited outside of the Catholic Church. Rome has declared that worship can take place on Saturday and Sunday. If you choose to be Catholic you can continue to worship on Saturday.:thumbsup:

Again the Augsburg Confession is ADDITIONAL hisotrical evidence of the very Council of Trent Roman Catholic view.

Here is the quote from the Augsburg Confession, The Abuses Corrected:

**"Article XXVIII: Of Ecclesiastical Power.

1] There has been great controversy concerning the Power of Bishops, in which some have awkwardly confounded the power of the Church 2] and the power of the sword. And from this confusion very great wars and tumults have resulted, while the Pontiffs, emboldened by the power of the Keys, not only have instituted new services and burdened consciences with reservation of cases and ruthless excommunications, but have also undertaken to transfer the kingdoms of this world, 3] and to take the Empire from the Emperor. These wrongs have long since been rebuked in the Church 4] by learned and godly men. Therefore our teachers, for the comforting of men’s consciences, were constrained to show the difference between the power of the Church and the power of the sword, and taught that both of them, because of God’s commandment, are to be held in reverence and honor, as the chief blessings of God on earth.

33] They refer to the Sabbath-day as having been changed into the Lord’s Day**, contrary to the Decalog, as it seems. Neither is there any example whereof they make more than concerning the changing of the Sabbath-day. Great, say they, is the power of the Church, since it has dispensed with one of the Ten Commandments! …

…

34] But concerning this question it is taught on our part (as has been shown above) that bishops have no power to decree anything against the Gospel. The Canonical Laws teach the same thing (Dist. IX)."

Go back to the Council of Trent on the matter…

 

[CopticChristian]

Again the Augsburg Confession is ADDITIONAL hisotrical evidence of the very Council of Trent Roman Catholic view.

Here is the quote from the Augsburg Confession, The Abuses Corrected:

**"Article XXVIII: Of Ecclesiastical Power.

1] There has been great controversy concerning the Power of Bishops, in which some have awkwardly confounded the power of the Church 2] and the power of the sword. And from this confusion very great wars and tumults have resulted, while the Pontiffs, emboldened by the power of the Keys, not only have instituted new services and burdened consciences with reservation of cases and ruthless excommunications, but have also undertaken to transfer the kingdoms of this world, 3] and to take the Empire from the Emperor. These wrongs have long since been rebuked in the Church 4] by learned and godly men. Therefore our teachers, for the comforting of men’s consciences, were constrained to show the difference between the power of the Church and the power of the sword, and taught that both of them, because of God’s commandment, are to be held in reverence and honor, as the chief blessings of God on earth.

33] They refer to the Sabbath-day as having been changed into the Lord’s Day**, contrary to the Decalog, as it seems. Neither is there any example whereof they make more than concerning the changing of the Sabbath-day. Great, say they, is the power of the Church, since it has dispensed with one of the Ten Commandments! …

…

34] But concerning this question it is taught on our part (as has been shown above) that bishops have no power to decree anything against the Gospel. The Canonical Laws teach the same thing (Dist. IX)."

Go back to the Council of Trent on the matter…

Like I said you can worship with us on Saturday, the Lords day, the Sabbath and satisfy Sunday obligation.

 

[TheSeventhDay]

Like I said you can worship with us on Saturday, the Lords day, the Sabbath and satisfy Sunday obligation.

The Commandment contains more than the idea of worship, which the 7th Day is called an “Holy Convocation” [sacred gathering].

But looking at the commandment itself, it says this:

Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Exodus 20:8

Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: Exodus 20:9

But the seventh day [is] the sabbath of the LORD thy God: [in it] thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that [is] within thy gates: Exodus 20:10

For [in] six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them [is], and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it. Exodus 20:11

The Seventh Day which is the Sabbath Day of the Lord thy God. Notice, that the sabbath is not merely “on” the 7th Day, as if it could be thus altered, The Seventh Day itself IS the Sabbath Day. In order to alter it, the day ITSELF would have to be removed, re-ordered.

In the English the text reads, “the seventh day [is] the sabbath of the lord thy God”, and theword [is] is supplied and makes a strong correlation, but the Hebrew is even stronger. It says this, “the seventh day the sabbath of the Lord thy God”.

"the seventh day the sabbath"

The Commandment includes a ceasation from work on the 7th Day, and thus includes more than simply having a sacred gathering and worship.

It also deals directly with Creation; Hebrews 11.

In this commandment, it deals with Faith and Morals, which the Roman Catholic theology proclaims it is also ruler over…

…thus they claim to be able to change what one is required to Faith in [believe in] and in the matter of Morals [dealing with what it means to sin].

**Sin is the transgression of the Law [1 John 3:4].

Whatsoever is not of faith is sin [Romans 14:23].**

Change the Ten Commandments, and you change what it means to sin.

I will now ask you.

**According to Roman Catholic theology is it a SIN to transgress the 7th Day Sabbath, yes or no.

According to Roman Catholic theology, is it a SIN to transgress the “first [day] of the week”, yes or no?**

Let us then see the official documentation after answering.

A person may indeed pray or gather any day of the week, and there is nothing wrong with it, however the Commandment itself deals with more than this, as it deals with cessation of work, and also of faith and morality, etc.

So, there, of course, is absolutely nothing wrong with getting together on any day of the week for fellowship, prayer, bible study, etc. We should “pray always” and everyday: Psalms 55:17, 119:164; Daniel 6:10,13; Luke 21:36; Philippians 4:4; 1 Thessalonians 5:17. However, the 7th Day Sabbath is especially “holy” for GOD hath “made” [Genesis 2:2-3] it so, and we are to “keep” [Exodus 20:8-11; Matthew 12:12, etc] it so, and it is called an “holy convocation” [sacred gathering; Leviticus 23:3] and the day is for “rest” and a ceasing from common [profane] labour [for we would never see Jesus in the carpentry shop working on the 7th Day, etc], but allow for sacred labour, even as Christ Jesus [John 5:17] – healing, uplifting the downtrodden, going to gathering/temple, reading the scriptures, walking in nature, fellowshipping, thinking about GOD and praying, etc.

Throughout all of the Books of Luke and Acts [both written many years after the Ascension of JESUS CHRIST], Luke [a gentile convert to Christianity and physician/historian] records that the Sabbath, the 7th Day of the Lord thy God, was indeed kept by the Apostles and Disciples and is the very same one as mentioned in the Commandment [being the 4th Commandment; see **Luke 23:56 “rested the sabbath day according to the commandment”, being the Commandment of their Lord Jesus Christ [Exodus 20:6; John 14:15], for direct evidence and for further textual references see: Luke 4:16,31, 6:5-6, 13:10,15-16, 14:1, 23:56; Acts 13:14-16,42-44, 15:21, 16:13, 17:2, 18:4].

 

[adrift]

The Augsburg confession, the Protestant articles, was cited in direct evidence of what they knew ROME believed at the time of the Council of Trent era and teaches concerning the subject. Read their articles carefully. It is historical evidence. Shall they be cited?

I am not certain what you are claiming? What do think that Rome believed?

 

[CopticChristian]

The Commandment contains more than the idea of worship, which the 7th Day is called an “Holy Convocation” [sacred gathering].

But looking at the commandment itself, it says this:

Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Exodus 20:8

Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: Exodus 20:9

But the seventh day [is] the sabbath of the LORD thy God: [in it] thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that [is] within thy gates: Exodus 20:10

For [in] six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them [is], and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it. Exodus 20:11

The Seventh Day which is the Sabbath Day of the Lord thy God. Notice, that the sabbath is not merely “on” the 7th Day, as if it could be thus altered, The Seventh Day itself IS the Sabbath Day. In order to alter it, the day ITSELF would have to be removed, re-ordered.

In the English the text reads, “the seventh day [is] the sabbath of the lord thy God”, and theword [is] is supplied and makes a strong correlation, but the Hebrew is even stronger. It says this, “the seventh day the sabbath of the Lord thy God”.

"the seventh day the sabbath"

The Commandment includes a ceasation from work on the 7th Day, and thus includes more than simply having a sacred gathering and worship.

**Sin is the transgression of the Law [1 John 3:4].

Whatsoever is not of faith is sin [Romans 14:23].**

A person may indeed pray or gather any day of the week, and there is nothing wrong with it, however the Commandment itself deals with more than this, as it deals with cessation of work, and also of faith and morality, etc.

Throughout all of the Books of Luke and Acts [both written many years after the Ascension of JESUS CHRIST], Luke [a gentile convert to Christianity and physician/historian] records that the Sabbath, the 7th Day of the Lord thy God, was indeed kept by the Apostles and Disciples and is the very same one as mentioned in the Commandment [being the 4th Commandment; see **Luke 23:56 “rested the sabbath day according to the commandment”

, being the Commandment of their Lord Jesus Christ [Exodus 20:6; John 14:15], for direct evidence and for further textual references see: Luke 4:16,31, 6:5-6, 13:10,15-16, 14:1, 23:56; Acts 13:14-16,42-44, 15:21, 16:13, 17:2, 18:4].

I am no theologian however I will say that the Old Covenant is dead. Romans 7. The New Covenant, according to Jesus and Paul is via the Church, the mystery hidden for all ages, the mystery by which Jew and Gentile were reconciled to God and the mystery through which the manifold wisdom of God is known. Concerning 1John sin is disobedience. Concerning Romans 14, this is what John Chrysosotom says.

Ver. 23. “And he that doubts is condemned if he eat.”

Again, it is to exhort him to spare the weaker, that he says this. For what good is it if he eat in doubt, and condemn himself? For I approve of him, who both eats, and does it not with doubting. See how he induces him not to eating only, but to eating with a good conscience too. Then he mentions likewise the reason why he is condemned continuing in these words,

“Because he eats not of faith.” Not because it is unclean, but because it is not of faith. For he did not believe that it is clean, but though unclean he touched it. But by this he shows them also what great harm they do by compelling men, and not persuading them, to touch things which had hitherto appeared unclean to them, that for this at all events they might leave rebuking. “For whatsoever is not of faith is sin.” For when a person does not feel sure, nor believe that a thing is clean, how can he do else than sin? Now all these things have been spoken by Paul of the subject in hand, not of everything. And observe what care he takes not to offend any; and he had said before, “If your brother be grieved with your meat, now you do not walk charitably.” But if one should not grieve him, much less ought one to give him offense. And again, “For meat destroy not the work of God.” For if it were a grievous act of iniquity to throw down a Church, much more so is it to do so to the spiritual Temple. Since a man is more dignified than a Church: for it was not for walls that Christ died, but for these temples.

So the Church says I go to Church on Saturday or Sunday. The Church uses the 10 commandments and teaches concerning the 10 commandments through the New Covenant, through the Church, the manifold wisdom of God. Who am I to question?

Ellen White is nowhere found in the Old or New Covenant writings.

 

[TheSeventhDay]

I am not certain what you are claiming? What do think that Rome believed?

Namely this [again from Rome’s Challenge]…

[Speaking of the True Protestant, in this case the Seventh Day Adventist] "…cardinal principle consists in setting apart Saturday for the exclusive worship of God, in conformity with the positive command of God himself, repeatedly reiterated in the sacred books of the Old and New Testaments, literally obeyed by the children of Israel for thousands of years to this day, and endorsed by the teaching and practice of the Son of God whilst on earth. …

…the Bible, his teacher, is consistent in both parts, that the Redeemer, during His mortal life, never kept any other day than Saturday. The Gospels plainly evince to him this fact; whilst, in the pages of the Acts of the Apostles, the Epistles, and the Apocalypse, not the vestige of an act canceling the Saturday arrangement can be found. …

… as the question is not one of numbers, but of truth, and right… "

[Now speaking of the general protestants who keep the “first [day] of the week” instead] **"…appealing to their common teacher, the Bible, the great body of Protestants, so far from clamoring, as they do with vigorous pertinacity for the strict keeping of Sunday, have no other resource [recourse] left than the admission that they have been teaching and practicing what is Scripturally false for over three centuries, by adopting the teaching and practice of what they have always pretended to believe an apostate church, contrary to every warrant and teaching of sacred Scripture. To add to the intensity of this Scriptural and unpardonable blunder, it involves one of the most positive and emphatic commands of God to His servant, man: “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.”

No Protestant living today has ever yet obeyed that command, preferring to follow the apostate church referred to than his teacher the Bible, which, from Genesis to Revelation, teaches no other doctrine, should the Israelites and Seventh-day Adventists be correct. …"**

[and again] **"…It resolves itself into a few plain questions easy of solution:

1st. Which day of the week does the Bible enjoin to be kept holy?

2nd. Has the New Testament modified by precept or practice the original command?

3rd. Have Protestants, since the sixteenth century, obeyed the command of God by keeping “holy” the day enjoined by their infallible guide and teacher, the Bible? and if not, why not?
To the above three questions we pledge ourselves to furnish as many intelligent answers, which cannot fail to vindicate the truth and uphold the deformity of error."**

 

[Filioque]

The Commandment contains more than the idea of worship, which the 7th Day is called an “Holy Convocation” [sacred gathering].,

So let me see if I am following you correctly… The Bible does not authorize the change of Shabbos from Saturday to Sunday. (Well at least as you read it.) I do read in the NT that animals that were formerly unclean are now clean. However I see no warrent in the Bible OT or NT for mixing different types of grapes, so like my childhood as an observant Jew, you and I must not put red, purple and white grapes on the same plate. Animals were covered, but nowhere do I read in the NT about grapes being exempted. I cannot wear a poly blend suit, (not a problem for me) or any clothing that are made of mixed fibers, as God has deemed both to be an abomination. Now slavery was not abolished by Jesus, and we even read about the duties of a slave to his master, so Can I still own slaves? I have not so far read anywhere that slavery was abolished in or by the NT. What do I do if I come into contact with a woman during her menstruation, or touch some article of clothing that she was wearing? Must I still sit in a mikvah? Seems this too was not changed in the Bible. Nor was the separation of the sexes during Sabbath Services. So please let me know if all the requirements of the Law given by Moses are still in force, (aside of course for the Unclean Animals, which the NT tells us, through a revelation to St. Peter.) or if it’s just the Seventh Day Sabbath?

 

[Protector]

Its Seventh Day Adventist, all right. In Australia, theres an SDA outfit called “Maranatha Ministries”: i received some literature from it!
For some reason, the SDAs like to hide behind other names… eg “Signs Publishing Company” which publishes “Signs of The Times”.

Hello Fink, fellow Australian. No, “Maranatha Ministries” is not of Australian origin, in fact it seems to be originally from the U.S :

(Quote: Maranatha Ministries is a proud affiliate of the United Pentecostal Church Int.
© 2005-2009 Maranatha Ministries UPC./Quote).

And definitely not SDA (They hold a Worship Service on Sundays). I did a quick cross reference between MM and SDA fundamental beliefs and there is no doubt about it -definitely not SDA… However, “Maranatha MEDIA” most probably is since, as your co-respondent has asserted, they do publish works by HGW.

“The Signs Publishing Company” 3485 Warburton Highway, Warburton VIC 3799, is a legitimate business that advertises their services on-line. As far as can be ascertained there is no subterfuge going on with regard to the SDA, and their website does not mention any religious connections at all, except right down the bottom where the following appears:- Copyright © 2011 netAdventist. If you just wanted some pamphlets printed, or some book binding done they would do it for you and you would probably never know that they were in anyway affiliated with the SDA church. “Signs” magazine is (as far as I can ascertain) mainly concerned with reports from SDA Missions abroad, and makes no secret of the fact, so your statement that, "the SDAs like to hide behind other names… eg “Signs Publishing Company”, would appear to be without foundation. Oh! BTW, before you go off on another tangent, I am not SDA. I just took the time to put your information into the Google search engine. **Maranatha! **

Protector.

 

[Filioque]

Interestingly enough, here is what the Latin Vulgate [Exodus 20:8-11] reads:
…And again the Douay Rheims [Deuteronomy 5:12-15]:

And I hate to be a stickler on the subject, but another evil invention of the Catholic Church which came about after Constantine (who your sect blames for creating the Catholic Church) is the separation of the Bible into Chapter and Verse, as well as punctuation, and the use of upper and lower case. Don’t forget the fact that of all the various books accepted by individual congregations, the decision as to which would be accepted in the NT Canon, and what was to be left out. Other things were done to modify the Bible, including the first translations into the languages of the people were done by the Catholics with approbation of the Catholic Church before Luther, (Long before God decided that everyone got it wrong, and Ellen G was needed to straighten the mess out. So I’m getting more and more confused as to what Catholic “Inventions” you want us to use and what you find unacceptable and why.

 

[CopticChristian]

So let me see if I am following you correctly… The Bible does not authorize the change of Shabbos from Saturday to Sunday. (Well at least as you read it.) I do read in the NT that animals that were formerly unclean are now clean. However I see no warrent in the Bible OT or NT for mixing different types of grapes, so like my childhood as an observant Jew, you and I must not put red, purple and white grapes on the same plate. Animals were covered, but nowhere do I read in the NT about grapes being exempted. I cannot wear a poly blend suit, (not a problem for me) or any clothing that are made of mixed fibers, as God has deemed both to be an abomination. Now slavery was not abolished by Jesus, and we even read about the duties of a slave to his master, so Can I still own slaves? I have not so far read anywhere that slavery was abolished in or by the NT. What do I do if I come into contact with a woman during her menstruation, or touch some article of clothing that she was wearing? Must I still sit in a mikvah? Seems this too was not changed in the Bible. Nor was the separation of the sexes during Sabbath Services. So please let me know if all the requirements of the Law given by Moses are still in force, (aside of course for the Unclean Animals, which the NT tells us, through a revelation to St. Peter.) or if it’s just the Seventh Day Sabbath?

So does this mean that I was right that as Paul says the Old Covenant is dead? I am just a Catholic that goes to Church and listens to the Bible read to me. I have no talents and I am grateful that it appears that based on my miminal knowledge we agree.

I am no theologian however I will say that the Old Covenant is dead. Romans 7. The New Covenant, according to Jesus and Paul is via the Church, the mystery hidden for all ages, the mystery by which Jew and Gentile were reconciled to God and the mystery through which the manifold wisdom of God is known.

It means that we can go to Church on Saturday or Sunday.

 

[TheSeventhDay]

I am no theologian however I will say that the Old Covenant is dead. Romans 7. The New Covenant, according to Jesus and Paul is via the Church, the mystery hidden for all ages, the mystery by which Jew and Gentile were reconciled to God and the mystery through which the manifold wisdom of God is known. Concerning 1John sin is disobedience. Concerning Romans 14, this is what John Chrysosotom says.

So the Church says I go to Church on Saturday or Sunday. The Church uses the 10 commandments and teaches concerning the 10 commandments through the New Covenant, through the Church, the manifold wisdom of God. Who am I to question?

Ellen White is nowhere found in the Old or New Covenant writings.

Does the TRUTH change?

“Pilate saith unto him, What is truth? …” (John 18:38;p)

Thy righteousness [is] an everlasting righteousness, and thy law [is] the truth. Psalms 119:142

Thou [art] near, O LORD; and all thy commandments [are] truth. Psalms 119:151

Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. John 17:17

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. John 14:6

This is he that came by water and blood, [even] Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth. 1 John 5:6

All the paths of the LORD [are] mercy and truth unto such as keep his covenant and his testimonies. Psalms 25:10

[He is] the Rock, his work [is] perfect: for all his ways [are] judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right [is] he. Deuteronomy 32:4

Herein is the New Covenant promises, where GOD would write HIS LAW into our hearts, by HIS promises:

Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Jeremiah 31:31

But this [shall be] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. Jeremiah 31:33

And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do [them]. Ezekiel 36:27

For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: Hebrews 8:8

For this [is] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: Hebrews 8:10

This [is] the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; Hebrews 10:16
**
For Jesus Christ came to MAGNIFY and make HONOURABLE HIS LAW:**

The LORD is well pleased for his righteousness’ sake; he will magnify the law, and make [it] honourable. Isaiah 42:21
**
Which LAW? The TEN COMMANDMENTS which are “spiritual” [Romans 7:14]**

If ye love me, keep my commandments. John 14:15
**
Jesus quoted directly from the Ten Commandments which He, Himself spake from Heaven at Mt. Sinai:**

And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments. Exodus 20:6

No one has to be a “theologian”, but rather ask Jesus Christ for wisdom, and "search the scriptures…"

Romans 14 is not dealing with the Ten Commandments, but rather “doubtful” things, and those “weak” in the faith and what “man esteemeth”, not what GOD already said clearly is permanent, eternal and so forever and ever.

In 1 John, transgression of the law is sin, or lawlessness is sin. God said, “the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God”, and who shall disobey without penalty? The wages for sin are?

John the Apostle knew exactly what Law it was sin to transgress, for He had heard Jesus Christ over and over again lift up the standard of righteousness. Matthew 5:19, 12:12, etc.

How did Paul know right from wrong? Which Law said? Romans 7:7.

Daniel 7:25…

 

[TheSeventhDay]

So does this mean that I was right that as Paul says the Old Covenant is dead? I am just a Catholic that goes to Church and listens to the Bible read to me. I have no talents and I am grateful that it appears that based on my miminal knowledge we agree.

It means that we can go to Church on Saturday or Sunday.

That is a misunderstanding of what the “old covenant” is.

A “covenant” is an agreement made [usually] between two or more parties.

Here was the agreement made by the peoples Israel:

GOD said, **“Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth [is] mine:” Exodus 19:5

“And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These [are] the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.” Exodus 19:6**
**
The Peoples Israel said,** **“And all the people answered together, and said, All that the LORD hath spoken we will do. And Moses returned the words of the people unto the LORD.” Exodus 19:8
**
Had the Ten Commandments been spoken aloud by God or written upon stone yet? No, but the **“covenant” **or agreement had been made. The people Israels **“promised” **something that they failed to do, they failed their side of the “covenant” agreement immediately after GOD spake to them from Heaven. They made golden calf, etc…

**This is why Daniel predicts when the New Covenant would be in effect; Daniel 9:27; see Last Supper “blood”, “many”, “testament” [covenant].

And in Hebrews it says, “For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:” Hebrews 8:8**

Who is the** “them”**? It is the peoples Israel. They failed their promises.

The Ten Commandments are “spiritual”, “holy, just and good” and “perfect”, even “for ever and ever”, “done in truth and uprightness”, etc. There is nothing wrong with them.

**There is something wrong with us. ** Thus the New Covenant was to be given. GOD’s promises [not ours] to write that very same spiritual Ten Commandment Law [which is exceeding broad] into our hearts.

 

[Filioque]

But there are far more than the Ten Commandments which make up the Law. Unless your Bible is limited to the Ten Commandments, Daniel, and the NT.

So again, aside from unclean animals being clean, (and I don’t see any change in the requirements on how to kill them, so the Old Laws on how to kill and butcher the animals, must still be in force). What other parts of the Law, which are nowhere in the NT abrogated must we follow?