Rome's Challenge

[TheSeventhDay]

So let me see if I am following you correctly… The Bible does not authorize the change of Shabbos from Saturday to Sunday. (Well at least as you read it.) I do read in the NT that animals that were formerly unclean are now clean.

That is also incorrect. The Clean and Unclean dietary laws of Health from God are also seen confirmed again as binding [not to mention healthful] in the New Testament from the very mouth of Simon ‘Peter’ Barjona on the Subject in Acts 10 and 11 and further elsewhere including Acts 15.

However, this is drawing away from the issue at hand which is Rome’s Challenge, concerning the 7th Day Sabbath of the Lord thy God.

If you would like to discuss the dietary laws of the OT and NT, please begin another thread and lets us seriously look at the texts. I would recommend that anyone please read at least those three chapters mentioned very, very carefully.

Thank you.

 

[TheSeventhDay]

But there are far more than the Ten Commandments which make up the Law. Unless your Bible is limited to the Ten Commandments, Daniel, and the NT. …

Again the Ten Commandments encompass everything. Love to God and to Neighbour.
**
I have seen an end of all perfection: [but] thy commandment [is] exceeding broad. Psalms 119:96**

 

[Filioque]

That is a misunderstanding of what the “old covenant” is…
And in Hebrews it says, “For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:” Hebrews 8:8

Who is the** “them”**? It is the peoples Israel. They failed their promises…**There is something wrong with us. ** Thus the New Covenant was to be given. GOD’s promises [not ours] to write that very same spiritual Ten Commandment Law [which is exceeding broad] into our hearts.

Still confusing, because, here we read that the New Covenant will be with Israel and Judah. OK the Apostles and most who converted in Jerusalem may be covered, I don’t know if you come from a Jewish family, and will be included, but your argument so far only covers the Apostles and those of us here who fell under the Old Covenant. So did God promise to write them on the hearts of Jews and Gentiles alike, or just Israel and Judah? If only to Israel and Judah, then you are expanding the promise of the New Covenant without warrent from the Scripture.

 

[Filioque]

Again the Ten Commandments encompass everything. Love to God and to Neighbour.
**
I have seen an end of all perfection: [but] thy commandment [is] exceeding broad**. Psalms 119:96

But why are you limiting the Law to just the Decaloge? The Law as written is so much more.

 

[Filioque]

That is also incorrect. The Clean and Unclean dietary laws of Health from God are also seen confirmed again as binding [not to mention healthful] in the New Testament from the very mouth of Simon ‘Peter’ Barjona on the Subject in Acts 10 and 11 and further elsewhere including Acts 15.

However, this is drawing away from the issue at hand which is Rome’s Challenge, concerning the 7th Day Sabbath of the Lord thy God.

If you would like to discuss the dietary laws of the OT and NT, please begin another thread and lets us seriously look at the texts. I would recommend that anyone please read at least those three chapters mentioned very, very carefully.

Thank you.

I’ve read it. It lacks in credibility, as if we are to isolate ourselves to the errors of Sola Scriptura, and accepting only those portions of the Law that we want to accept, in a vacuum. We are brought to the wrong conclusions which EGW and the SDA promotes.

 

[TheSeventhDay]

Still confusing, because, here we read that the New Covenant will be with Israel and Judah. OK the Apostles and most who converted in Jerusalem may be covered, I don’t know if you come from a Jewish family, and will be included, but your argument so far only covers the Apostles and those of us here who fell under the Old Covenant. So did God promise to write them on the hearts of Jews and Gentiles alike, or just Israel and Judah? If only to Israel and Judah, then you are expanding the promise of the New Covenant without warrent from the Scripture.

That is a misunderstanding of who the “jew” or “israel” is. Paul and Jesus, even James, and John etc reveal who that is:

Sabbath COMMANDMENT (Genesis 2:2-3; Exodus 5:5, 16:22-26, 20:8-11; Deuteronomy 5:12-15; Matthew 12:1-12, 15:20, 24:20; Mark 1:21, 2:27-28, 6:2, 7:6-9, 16:1; Luke 4:16,31, 6:5-6, 13:10,15-16, 14:1, 23:56; John 5:9, 9:14; Acts 13:14-16,42-44, 15:21, 16:13, 17:2, 18:4; Hebrews 4:4-11, Revelation 1:10, 14:7, etc)

…is Linked To Creation (Genesis 2:3; Exodus 20:8-11),

…Redemption (Deuteronomy 5:12-15),

…Salvation (Isaiah 49:8-13, 56:1, 61:1-2),

…the Here-After (Isaiah 66:23),

…the Covenant (Isaiah 56:4-8),

…the LAW (Jeremiah 31:33),

…which is a “sign” (Exodus 31:17; Ezekiel 20:20),

…to the “People of GOD” (Hebrews 4:9; Revelation 14:13),

…who are to “continue in the grace of GOD” [Acts 13:43],

…wherein the LAW of GOD is “Seal”[ed] (Exodus 13:9,16; Deuteronomy 6:8, 11:18; Psalms 119:109,111-112; Ezekiel 9:4; Isaiah 8:16; James 4:8; Revelation 9:4, 14:1) …[compare to those who have the mark of the Beast: (a type) Genesis 4:5; (a type) 2 Kings 9:35; (reality/anti-type) Revelation 13:16, 14:9, 17:5]

…and to JESUS who is GOD (Exodus 33:14; Matthew 11:28; Hebrews 4:10),

…for HE “Created” it, “Blessed” and “Sanctified” (being set aside at Creation for Holy use) it before there was sin in the world (Genesis 2:1-3; John 1:1-3),

…being “MADE”, for all of “Man”[kind] as a blessing (Exodus 20:10, 23:12; Ecclesiastes 12:13; Mark 2:27),

…in which HE was “refreshed” (Exodus 31:17),

…and it is HIS “HOLY DAY” (Isaiah 58:13),

…whom HE is “LORD” of (Mark 2:28; Luke 6:5; Revelation 1:10),

…and to whom even the Gentiles would seek to join themselves (Isaiah 56:6; Acts 13:42,44, 15:21),

…and in “KEEP”[ing] THE 7th Day we honor [5th Commandment] HIM (Isaiah 58:13), who is Our Creator who “SO” very much loves us (John 3:16).

…The Law of GOD and the 4th Commandment being the Holy 7th Day Sabbath of the LORD GOD, which points backwards to that time and place of “very good” before the sin of mankind, is not a bondage, but joy and delight (Exodus 20:2; Isaiah 58:13),

…which JESUS lived (John 5:17),

…preached/taught (Matthew 12:11; Mark 1:21, 6:2),

…sanctified (Luke 4:16),

…defended (Matthew 12:3-8; Mark 2:25-28; Luke 13:16, 14:3-5),

…and commanded HIS Rest (Matthew 12:12) to those who would follow after HIM, also healing those who were slaves of sin and suffering upon HIS Rest (John 5:9, 7:23, 9:14).

…Even in death, HE would break no Commandment, remained ‘Resting’ upon HIS Holy Day (Matthew 27:60,62; Luke 23:54) in the tomb.

…The Disciples (Luke 6:40), knowing the importance of the LAW [Ten Commandments] and Sabbath to JESUS, whom they loved (John 14:15), obeyed and kept HIS Rest even after HE died (Luke 23:56).

…JESUS gave a strict warning of which we must seriously consider (Matthew 5:19), for which HE also magnified (Matthew 12:12).

…JESUS is Israel:

When Israel [was] a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt. [Hosea 11:1]

And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son. [Matthew 2:15]

Anyone “in CHRIST JESUS” [Romans 3:24, 8:1-2,39; 1 Corinthians 1:2,30, 4:15; Galatians 3:26,28, 6:15; Ephesians 2:6,13, 3:11; 1 Thessalonians 2:14; 2 Timothy 1:1, etc] i**s Spiritual Israel **, a **“true israelite” **[John 1:47], those who “worship in spirit and in truth” [John 4:23-24]

"For all the promises of God in him [are] yea, and in him Amen…" 2 Corinthians 1:20; partial]:

Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved. Acts 4:12

…The Sabbath is for us [Christians] to keep holy (Exodus 20:8),

…for a Christian (Matthew 16:24; John 8:11),

…is not of the flesh which cannot receive the spirit (Matthew 21:19, 23:38; Acts 13:46),

…but is of the spirit (Romans 2:28-29, 9:6-8; Galatians 4:29),

…and bringing forth the fruits thereof (Matthew 21:43; 1 Corinthians 7:19),

…obeying HIM in HIS Commandments (Acts 5:32; Hebrews 5:9) and,

…is indeed a child and a seed of Abraham (Galatians 3:7, 29),

…cut and grafted into the True Vine (Romans 11:17-24,30-32),

…of the spiritual circumcision made without hands keeping the Commandments (1 Corinthians 7:19; Colossians 2:11),

…a Spiritual Jew or Israel (Romans 2:29), and the Everlasting Covenant made only with them (Jeremiah 31:31,33; Ezekiel 36:27; Hebrews 8:8,10, 10:16).

…Christians are to KEEP the TEN COMMANDMENTS (which includes the 4th Commandment (Matthew 12:12), being the HOLY 7th Day of the LORD GOD): (Matthew 5:19,48, 19:17; John 14:15, 15:10,14; 1 John 2:3-4, 3:22, 5:2-3; Revelation 12:17, 14:12, 22:14, etc),

 

[TheSeventhDay]

But why are you limiting the Law to just the Decaloge? The Law as written is so much more.

I am not “limiting” the Commandments of God to just those Ten, as was stated, they are exceeding broad. Those Ten include all of God’s commandments, as was stated before, and those Ten even “briefly comprehended” in the greatest “love to God” and the second like unto it, “love to neighbour”.

It is that the Roman Catholic Church has theologically and dogmatically thought to change the times and laws of God, especially in that one particular commandment dealing with the seventh day [in this instance, both a time and a law], which is the sabbath of the lord thy God.

 

[Filioque]

If I do accept Gentiles as somehow members of the Covenant. If I concede that the Decagoge is in force (which I do) What Biblical justification do you have for rejecting the rest of the law, aside from edible and tasty animals? There are alot of mitzvot that need to be covered, not just Shabbos. And there are lots of laws that we would be held to for Shabbos too. You’ve yet to convince me that because EGW saw the fourth commandment made prominent by God’s highlighter, that the other laws are to be ignored.

I’ll be out looking over the slave market while awaiting your list of what I can ignore and why.

 

[TheSeventhDay]

If I do accept Gentiles as somehow members of the Covenant. If I concede that the Decagoge is in force (which I do) What Biblical justification do you have for rejecting the rest of the law, aside from edible and tasty animals? There are alot of mitzvot that need to be covered, not just Shabbos. And there are lots of laws that we would be held to for Shabbos too. You’ve yet to convince me that because EGW saw the fourth commandment made prominent by God’s highlighter, that the other laws are to be ignored.

I’ll be out looking over the slave market while awaiting your list of what I can ignore and why.

I was Roman Catholic 30 years, born in and raised, confirmed etc. Some family still are, and some still work for the local Bishop.

So, if any would like to discuss Roman Catholic theological positions [other than this current topic of Rome’s Challenge] from the official sources, let us do so. However, please not in this thread.

I was not born in nor raised Seventh Day Adventist…

…until a few years ago did not even know they existed, same for Sister White…

…there is a testimony behind the matter, and Jesus Christ is at the center of it…

If you would like to discuss Sister Ellen G. White, her role, and the prophetic movement foretold in Revelation as the Seventh Day Adventist movement, we can, but please begin another thread. This thread is not about her, or even the 7th Day Adventist movement as a whole, but about the facts at hand, already cited, given for discussing the 7th Day Sabbath of the Lord thy God, as is found in the Word of God, the Holy Scriptures. This is the topic.

Yes, there are indeed many laws, commandments, statutes, judgments, etc. Context dictates, scripture dictates and Jesus own words dictate to which.

If you would like to discuss a particular item among them, like the Health laws, dietary laws, ritual/ceremonial laws, theocratic laws, mens commandments, etc, then please begin a new thread on that topic.

Topic of this Thread is Rome’s Challenge and “the 7th Day Sabbath of the Lord thy God”.

Please read those last five words in the quotation marks.

No man can serve two masters…

Ye cannot serve God and…

 

[CopticChristian]

Does the TRUTH change?

But this [shall be] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. Jeremiah 31:33

And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do [them]. Ezekiel 36:27

For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: Hebrews 8:8

For this [is] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: Hebrews 8:10

This [is] the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; Hebrews 10:16

**
For Jesus Christ came to MAGNIFY and make HONOURABLE HIS LAW:**

The LORD is well pleased for his righteousness’ sake; he will magnify the law, and make [it] honourable. Isaiah 42:21
**
Which LAW? The TEN COMMANDMENTS which are “spiritual” [Romans 7:14]**

If ye love me, keep my commandments. John 14:15
**
Jesus quoted directly from the Ten Commandments which He, Himself spake from Heaven at Mt. Sinai:**

No one has to be a “theologian”, but rather ask Jesus Christ for wisdom, and "search the scriptures…"

Romans 14 is not dealing with the Ten Commandments, but rather “doubtful” things, and those “weak” in the faith and what “man esteemeth”, not what GOD already said clearly is permanent, eternal and so forever and ever.

In 1 John, transgression of the law is sin, or lawlessness is sin. God said, “the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God”, and who shall disobey without penalty? The wages for sin are?

John the Apostle knew exactly what Law it was sin to transgress, for He had heard Jesus Christ over and over again lift up the standard of righteousness. Matthew 5:19, 12:12, etc.

How did Paul know right from wrong? Which Law said? Romans 7:7.

Daniel 7:25…

Gosh, by golly I love the book of Romans. Go back and look at the central theme of the book.

He is writing to Christians, not 7th day adventists.

7To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

8First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.

secondly he is writing to discuss the obedience of Faith not Ellen White. Check out Romans 1 and Romans 16. The first time and the last time he mentions Faith he mentions it as the Obedience of the Faith. I am obedient to the Faith of The One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church, the mystery hidden for all ages, through which the manifold wisdom of God is known.

By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations,

26But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

Now go look at Romans 3 and see that Paul is addressing the Judiazing Christians.

1What advantage, then, is there in being a Jew, or what value is there in circumcision? 2Much in every way! First of all, they have been entrusted with the very words of God.

These poor guys were trying to force the Old Covenant on the Christians and he tries to get them to listen by dialoguing about the value of Circumcision and being a Jew. The Jew got the Old Testament, God Spoke to the Jew first.

Other translations translate the passage this way.

Yes, there are great benefits! First of all, the Jews were entrusted with the whole revelation of God.

Go back and read this in many versions. You have to ask yourself if there is the first there must be a second. In other words if there is one advantage what is the next advantage. I challenge you to read and find the next advantage. What you will find is that the dialogue from this point until you reach…Romans 11 is directed to the Jew becoming a Christian to let them know that the Old Covenant is dead.

1I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew.

We have to have some sort of agreement that you understand the book of Romans before I can dialogue with you.

The Church is the Israel of God. The Body of Christ, Jesus, His Church is the Israel of God by which Jew and Gentile would be part of God’s plan. Paul is pretty harsh saying that if you do not understand this mystery you are ignorant. I wouldn’t say that but who am I to oppose Paul.

25For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written,

So, let me know when you understand the book of Romans, in the meantime you can join us on Saturday and fulfill your Sunday obligation.

 

[TheSeventhDay]

Please conisder again the official Roman Catholic Catechism from the Vaticans own website, and notice that there is a shift from the Scriptural to that which is not…

…and notice what is stated plainly… about “morals” [that which deals with God’s Divine Law and what it means to sin]…

**"2051 The infallibility of the Magisterium of the Pastors extends to all the elements of doctrine, including

moral doctrine**, without which the saving truths of the faith cannot be preserved, expounded, or observed.

The Ten Commandments

Exodus 20 2-17

I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

You shall have no other gods before me. You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness

of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the

earth; you shall not bow down to them or serve them; for I the LORD your God am a jealous God,

visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and the fourth generation of those

who hate me, but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my

commandments.

You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless

who takes his name in vain.

Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor, and do all your work; but the

seventh day is a sabbath to the LORD your God; in it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or

your daughter, your manservant or your maidservant or your cattle, or the sojourner who is within your

gates; for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the

seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day and hallowed it.

Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long in the land which the LORD your God

gives you.

You shall not kill.

You shall not commit adultery.

You shall not steal.

You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.

You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, or his manservant

or his maidservant or his ox, or his ***, or anything that is your neighbor’s.

Deuteronomy 5:6-21

I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt out of the house of bondage.

You shall have no other gods before me . . .

You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain . . .

Observe the sabbath day, to keep it holy. . .

Honor your father and your mother . . .

You shall not kill.

Neither shall you commit adultery.

Neither shall you steal.

Neither shall you bear false witness against your neighbor.

Neither shall you covet your neighbor’s wife .

You shall not desire . . . anything that is your neighbor’s.

A Traditional Catechetical Formula

1. I am the LORD your God: you shall not have strange Gods before me.
2. You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.
3. Remember to keep holy the LORD’S Day.
4. Honor your father and your mother.
5. You shall not kill.
6. You shall not commit adultery.
7. You shall not steal.
8. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
9. You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife.
10. You shall not covet your neighbor’s goods."
    [PART THREE: LIFE IN CHRIST; SECTION ONE MAN’S VOCATION LIFE IN THE SPIRIT; CHAPTER THREE GOD’S SALVATION: LAW AND GRACE; Article 3 THE CHURCH, MOTHER AND TEACHER; IN BRIEF]

In the Scriptural rendition it is quite frankly cited in **Exodus 20 **and very clearly that the 7th Day is the Sabbath of the Lord thy God, [though again the indefinite article **“a” appears again without anything to do so]… and yet then a shortened version of Deuteronomy removing the 7th day part… merely citing “the sabbath” and yet it goes even further… the shift right before your eyes… a change of GOD’s Holy Spiritual and Eternal Law of morality…

…and so in the “traditional catechetical forumla”, it is enitrely absent, renamed and changed to “the LORD’s Day” [no longer **“the Sabbath” and no longer “the seventh day”, but rather mysteriously “the LORD’s Day”, and by this they mean to say “first [day] of the week]”] though absolutely no scriptural references are given for the connection of the terms or for the day itself to be such.

Rome has changed the definition of what it means to sin. It has affected “faith and morals”.

Whatsoever is not of faith is sin. Transgression of the Law is sin.

This affects the Cross and everything Jesus accomplished there.

I will ask again, which is sin to transgress?

 

[CopticChristian]

Please conisder again the official Roman Catholic Catechism from the Vaticans own website, and notice that there is a shift from the Scriptural to that which is not…

…and notice what is stated plainly… about “morals” [that which deals with God’s Divine Law and what it means to sin]…

**"2051 The infallibility of the Magisterium of the Pastors extends to all the elements of doctrine, including

moral doctrine**, without which the saving truths of the faith cannot be preserved, expounded, or observed.

The Ten Commandments

Exodus 20 2-17

I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

You shall have no other gods before me. You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness

of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the

earth; you shall not bow down to them or serve them; for I the LORD your God am a jealous God,

visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and the fourth generation of those

who hate me, but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my

commandments.

You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless

who takes his name in vain.

Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor, and do all your work; but the

seventh day is a sabbath to the LORD your God; in it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or

your daughter, your manservant or your maidservant or your cattle, or the sojourner who is within your

gates; for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the

seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day and hallowed it.

Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long in the land which the LORD your God

gives you.

You shall not kill.

You shall not commit adultery.

You shall not steal.

You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.

You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, or his manservant

or his maidservant or his ox, or his ***, or anything that is your neighbor’s.

Deuteronomy 5:6-21

I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt out of the house of bondage.

You shall have no other gods before me . . .

You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain . . .

Observe the sabbath day, to keep it holy. . .

Honor your father and your mother . . .

You shall not kill.

Neither shall you commit adultery.

Neither shall you steal.

Neither shall you bear false witness against your neighbor.

Neither shall you covet your neighbor’s wife .

You shall not desire . . . anything that is your neighbor’s.

A Traditional Catechetical Formula

1. I am the LORD your God: you shall not have strange Gods before me.
2. You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.
3. Remember to keep holy the LORD’S Day.
4. Honor your father and your mother.
5. You shall not kill.
6. You shall not commit adultery.
7. You shall not steal.
8. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
9. You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife.
10. You shall not covet your neighbor’s goods."
    [PART THREE: LIFE IN CHRIST; SECTION ONE MAN’S VOCATION LIFE IN THE SPIRIT; CHAPTER THREE GOD’S SALVATION: LAW AND GRACE; Article 3 THE CHURCH, MOTHER AND TEACHER; IN BRIEF]

In the Scriptural rendition it is quite frankly cited in **Exodus 20 **and very clearly that the 7th Day is the Sabbath of the Lord thy God, [though again the indefinite article **“a”

appears again without anything to do so]… and yet then a shortened version of Deuteronomy removing the 7th day part… merely citing “the sabbath” and yet it goes even further… the shift right before your eyes… a change of GOD’s Holy Spiritual and Eternal Law of morality…

…and so in the “traditional catechetical forumla”, it is enitrely absent, renamed and changed to “the LORD’s Day” [no longer **“the Sabbath” and no longer “the seventh day”, but rather mysteriously “the LORD’s Day”, and by this they mean to say “first [day] of the week]”] though absolutely no scriptural references are given for the connection of the terms or for the day itself to be such.

Rome has changed the definition of what it means to sin. It has affected “faith and morals”.

Whatsoever is not of faith is sin. Transgression of the Law is sin.

This affects the Cross and everything Jesus accomplished there.

I will ask again, which is sin to transgress?

I agree that there is a magesterium and if you are having trouble with fulfilling an obligation on Saturday, like I said, Sunday works too.

 

[TheSeventhDay]

… fulfill your Sunday obligation.

Are you saying it is a Sin to not keep the “obligation” of Sunday, by transgression?

Would this be a “mortal” sin by knowningly not keeping and or transgressing the “obligation” of the Roman Catholic Church?

 

[pablope]

Please conisder again the official Roman Catholic Catechism from the Vaticans own website, and notice that there is a shift

from the Scriptural to that which is not…

How? Where does it state the Scripture is to be the sole rule of everything?

Rome has changed the definition of what it means to sin. It has affected “faith and morals”.

 

[Filioque]

Are you saying it is a Sin to not keep the “obligation” of Sunday, by transgression?

Would this be a “mortal” sin by knowningly not keeping and or transgressing the “obligation” of the Roman Catholic Church?

I happily prayed the rosary, and said some of my other evening prayers, and went to bed. But I’m glad that Pablope brought up a few things I was thinking of. Your first error the, or actually the error that the SDA has convinced you of is that the Jewish Shabbos is a literal commandment for all time, but other laws that were given for “all time” are now abrogated because we Jews were unfaithful. Either you take the all time laws as literally binding, or you don’t. Secondly that you fall into the errrors of Sola Scriptura, which is found nowhere in the Bible, nor in Mrs. White’s religion, as her and her successor’s writings are given a higher status than anything the Pope says or writes. Then there is the overlooking that the Apostles are the foundation of the Church, and that Jesus promised to remain with the Church until the end of time. If He promised that and the Apostles died, either He lied, and did not provide that the foundation of the Church remain in their successors, and that the Authority He gave the Apostles would be passed down in an orderly manner, or the various Protestants are correct, and Jesus promise was like all that He said, just a symbolic idea.

Thanks for your history, mine is that I am the son of parents among the thousands of Jews who escaped Europe and the Shoah through the intervention of Pope Pius XII instructions to Catholic Bishops in Italy and the rest of Europe. No effort was made to forcebly convert us, only the example of true Christlike love. I as a Jew went to Loma Linda University for my Medical training, where I learned along with good medical knowledge that the Pope was the Anti-Christ, and his title added up to 666 and that the Sabbath needed to be kept by quasi-Christians. This prompted me to learn about the Church who’s members saved my family from the gas chambers. I found that the SDA falsified what they were teaching, misrepresenting Catholic Dogma, and basically teaching another Scripture. Sure not all Catholics are great examples of virtue, or have a knowledge of their faith, or Sacred Scripture (I found the same among the SDA I met) but the Claims of the Catholic Church vs the fiction about it that the SDA have adopted are credible and historical claims.

 

[CopticChristian]

Are you saying it is a Sin to not keep the “obligation” of Sunday, by transgression?

Would this be a “mortal” sin by knowningly not keeping and or transgressing the “obligation” of the Roman Catholic Church?

I believe that you should reflect on what Filioque is saying. You were once Catholic. You are presenting this dialogue about what you have found. Go over the following and let me know if this is what you want me to believe, in other words you gave up what I believe for this?

…It’s like if you ask one if they believe in the Trinity and they say “yeah, Father, Son and Holy Spirit - the Trinity”.

Then a few weeks into the “Prophecy Study” they invited you to, you hear them mentioning how Christ could have lost His eternal Salvation…
…Then you say something does not compute - ya go and spent a bunch of time on their archive search engine.
…And discover a theology that’s as alien to the truth as it gets.

The beef I have is that they hold these “Explore The Prophetic” ( that’s what they call it ) programs with lots of razzle dazzle…
…And toward the middle of it they flat out say the Pope is part of the Antichrist power.
…And that a Pope stole the real Sabbath and traded it for Sunday.
…And now that you know this what are you gonna do about it!

I had that experience myself and after digging into the carcas which is SDA theology…
…I discovered a most maggoty mess and with all the Catholics who have been tricked into this foul mess.
…I intend on doing my part to get the word out what the REAL teachings of this Church is.

And to think that they have the gall to trick uneducated people into believing the Catholic Church has teaching against the Bible…
…And is the Beast power and Antichrist all rolled into one.
…While they still maintain a Christ that is less than One True God!
…WOW!

…Within a year or so the “once” Catholic will be looking toward heaven clutching a Bible & affirming Christ could have sinned and lost His salvation.

Ellen White
I saw that God had NOT changed the Sabbath, for He never changes. But the Pope had changed it from the seventh to the first day of the week: for he was to change time and laws.A Word to the Little Flock, p. 18.

Ellen White
In the holiest I saw an ark; … In the ark was the golden pot of manna, Aaron’s rod that budded, and the tables of stone which folded together like a book. Jesus opened them, and I saw the ten commandments written on them with the finger of God. On one table were four, and on the other six. The four on the first table shone brighter than the other six. But the fourth, the Sabbath commandment, shone above them all; for the Sabbath was set apart to be kept in honor of God’s holy name. The holy Sabbath looked glorious–a halo of glory was all around it. Early Writings of Ellen G. White, page 32, 33.

Ellen White
I saw all that “would not receive the mark of the Beast, and of his Image, in their foreheads or in their hands,” could not buy or sell. O REV. 13: 15–17.] I saw that the number (666) of the Image Beast was made up; P REV. 13: 18.] and that it was the Beast that changed the Sabbath, and the Image Beast had followed on after, and kept the Pope’s, and not God’s Sabbath. And all we were required to do, was to give up God’s Sabbath, and keep the Pope’s, and then we should have the mark of the Beast, and of his image

In the SDA rubric Matthew 5,18 is taken to mean that since the world “never ends” God’s holy law will never end…
…With the 10 Commandments being in SDA mind the only real “law of God”.
…The Saturday Sabbath will never terminate - God Himself is required to keep it, or else.

From this the SDA follows the prophetic utterance of Ellen White that Jesus didn’t come to “fulfill” the law and terminate the 1st Covenant…
…Instead Christ came for the express purpose to “Vindicate” God’s Holy law of which the Sabbath is the most important part of that law.
…And a Christian, if they are to be saved must also continue to Vindicate the Saturday Sabbath.

It would appear that you can satisfy your obligation as I said at 5pm mass on Saturday and still be vindicated.

 

[pablope]

I believe that you should reflect on what Filioque is saying. You were once Catholic. You are presenting this dialogue about what you have found. Go over the following and let me know if this is what you want me to believe, in other words you gave up what I believe for this?

Ellen White
I saw that God had NOT changed the Sabbath, for He never changes. But the Pope had changed it from the seventh to the first day of the week: for he was to change time and laws.A Word to the Little Flock, p. 18.

In the SDA rubric Matthew 5,18 is taken to mean that since the world “never ends” God’s holy law will never end…
…With the 10 Commandments being in SDA mind the only real “law of God”.
…The Saturday Sabbath will never terminate - God Himself is required to keep it, or else.

From this the SDA follows the prophetic utterance of Ellen White that Jesus didn’t come to “fulfill” the law and terminate the 1st Covenant…
…Instead Christ came for the express purpose to “Vindicate” God’s Holy law of which the Sabbath is the most important part of that law.
…And a Christian, if they are to be saved must also continue to Vindicate the Saturday Sabbath.

It would appear that you can satisfy your obligation as I said at 5pm mass on Saturday and still be vindicated.

Hi, CC…from what you posted above, it make it seems that all God is concerned about is the day we worship…disregard all the other commandments…not steal, not commit adultery, honor thy father and mother, etc…all these seem second fiddle to the day of worship.

I was just listening to a program about reforms in the CC, and the host mentioned how Catherine of Sienna effected reforms in the 1400s or so. This prompted to look at St. Catherine’s bio.

Here below is a sample of what I found out:

Catherine preferred to belong totally to Christ. She was united to God intimately and she longed to maintain that unity even if it meant speaking out or saying things people didn’t necessarily like to hear. It did not matter if they were clergy. She reverently told the pope to return to Rome. She either wrote letters or dictated them. She spoke from her heart, strength, and soul. She poured herself out daily despite her position. A woman in the church during this time was a ‘nobody’. These were times when women were not typically outspoken especially publicly and certainly not in church circles. Her messages got through because it was God’s will and because she had tremendous confidence in God. She never said no to God. She was madly in love with God as a personal friend and everything she possessed was shared mutually for the love of the church.

Her public influence became widely known because of her holiness. She was obedient but outspoken, reverent, and docile. God called Catherine to pray, pray and pray. The last few years of her life she spent pleading for the unity of the church. The Papacy was in Avignon, France and Catherine told church officials where God wanted it. But who would listen? God would! God answered her prayers. God is bound to answer all prayers. Why is that? God told us so. What she asked from God was impossible. This was more incredible than moving a mountain. Catherine worked a trick on God. She duped God! She would offer herself as a victim to the Almighty and the Almighty would work an Almighty deed. The rest is history.

The church actually returned to Rome, Italy.

source: doctorsofthecatholicchurch.com/C.html

Now compare what EGW did with what Catherine of Sienna did?

 

[CopticChristian]

Hi, CC…from what you posted above, it make it seems that all God is concerned about is the day we worship…disregard all the other commandments…not steal, not commit adultery, honor thy father and mother, etc…all these seem second fiddle to the day of worship.

I was just listening to a program about reforms in the CC, and the host mentioned how Catherine of Sienna effected reforms in the 1400s or so. This prompted to look at St. Catherine’s bio.

Here below is a sample of what I found out:

Catherine preferred to belong totally to Christ. She was united to God intimately and she longed to maintain that unity even if it meant speaking out or saying things people didn’t necessarily like to hear. It did not matter if they were clergy. She reverently told the pope to return to Rome. She either wrote letters or dictated them. She spoke from her heart, strength, and soul. She poured herself out daily despite her position. A woman in the church during this time was a ‘nobody’. These were times when women were not typically outspoken especially publicly and certainly not in church circles. Her messages got through because it was God’s will and because she had tremendous confidence in God. She never said no to God. She was madly in love with God as a personal friend and everything she possessed was shared mutually for the love of the church.

Her public influence became widely known because of her holiness. She was obedient but outspoken, reverent, and docile. God called Catherine to pray, pray and pray. The last few years of her life she spent pleading for the unity of the church. The Papacy was in Avignon, France and Catherine told church officials where God wanted it. But who would listen? God would! God answered her prayers. God is bound to answer all prayers. Why is that? God told us so. What she asked from God was impossible. This was more incredible than moving a mountain. Catherine worked a trick on God. She duped God! She would offer herself as a victim to the Almighty and the Almighty would work an Almighty deed. The rest is history.

The church actually returned to Rome, Italy.

source: doctorsofthecatholicchurch.com/C.html

Now compare what EGW did with what Catherine of Sienna did?

Amen. My daughter, Natalie Marie Catherine…is named for my mother “marie” and Catherine of Sienna. I want her to know about what you say and be a rebel rouser from within as you say. EGW?

 

[Filioque]

That is a misunderstanding of who the “jew” or “israel” is…

Again we are being taught that Jesus’ word was not worthy. He promised to remain with His Church until the consumation of the earth. He promised that the Holy Spirit, the Paraclete would guide the Church… We find out now that for 1800 plus years God allowed the world to wallow in error, and be guided by a false leader, whom He Himself set up. over 1800 years later Mrs. White would without any Biblical Authority not keep silent in Church, and finally expose the truth as Jesus, His Apostles, and their successors could not,

 

[pablope]

Again we are being taught that Jesus’ word was not worthy. He promised to remain with His Church until the consumation of the earth. He promised that the Holy Spirit, the Paraclete would guide the Church… We find out now that for 1800 plus years God allowed the world to wallow in error, and be guided by a false leader, whom He Himself set up. over 1800 years later Mrs. White would without any Biblical Authority not keep silent in Church, and finally expose the truth as Jesus, His Apostles, and their successors could not,

I was just going to point this out. If the Sunday worship was such a wrong, and the Church was falling into heresy and sin against God because of this, why did not God send somebody to correct the day of worship within the first, let us say, 200 years of Christianity? Why wait 1800 years later? Looks like God was asleep at the wheel, isn’t it?

Another point…why wait, if EGW was indeed sent by God to correct the day of worship, why did God not send her in the first 200 yrs? Why 1800?