Rome's Challenge

[TheSeventhDay]

I happily prayed the rosary, and said some of my other evening prayers, and went to bed. But I’m glad that Pablope brought up a few things I was thinking of. Your first error the, or actually the error that the SDA has convinced you of is that the Jewish Shabbos is a literal commandment for all time, but other laws that were given for “all time” are now abrogated because we Jews were unfaithful. Either you take the all time laws as literally binding, or you don’t. Secondly that you fall into the errrors of Sola Scriptura, which is found nowhere in the Bible, nor in Mrs. White’s religion, as her and her successor’s writings are given a higher status than anything the Pope says or writes. Then there is the overlooking that the Apostles are the foundation of the Church, and that Jesus promised to remain with the Church until the end of time. If He promised that and the Apostles died, either He lied, and did not provide that the foundation of the Church remain in their successors, and that the Authority He gave the Apostles would be passed down in an orderly manner, or the various Protestants are correct, and Jesus promise was like all that He said, just a symbolic idea.

Thanks for your history, mine is that I am the son of parents among the thousands of Jews who escaped Europe and the Shoah through the intervention of Pope Pius XII instructions to Catholic Bishops in Italy and the rest of Europe. No effort was made to forcebly convert us, only the example of true Christlike love. I as a Jew went to Loma Linda University for my Medical training, where I learned along with good medical knowledge that the Pope was the Anti-Christ, and his title added up to 666 and that the Sabbath needed to be kept by quasi-Christians. This prompted me to learn about the Church who’s members saved my family from the gas chambers. I found that the SDA falsified what they were teaching, misrepresenting Catholic Dogma, and basically teaching another Scripture. Sure not all Catholics are great examples of virtue, or have a knowledge of their faith, or Sacred Scripture (I found the same among the SDA I met) but the Claims of the Catholic Church vs the fiction about it that the SDA have adopted are credible and historical claims.

Please demonstrate from the scriptures that “the seventh day” which is “the sabbath of the Lord thy God”, was ever strictly for the Jews, or ever called the “jewish sabbath” in scripture. Considering the vastness of scripture, it is called “the Sabbath of the Lord thy God”, it is His Holy Day, never the sabbath of the jews or jewish sabbath. Consider also, if you will, that the nation of Israel was to be the light to the gentiles…

Again, simply go back to creation in Genesis. The seventh Day is the Sabbath. In order for it, the Sabbath to cease, the seventh day would have to be removed from the weekly cycle.

Luke and Paul the Apostle to the Gentiles, were both very clear about the 7th Day, as were those who loved Jesus enough to bury Him [Luke 23:56].

‘Apostolic succession’ [according to Romanc Catholic definition] is non-existent in scriptures, but there is such a thing as the Apostolic Gift given by the Holy Spirit as He Will, not as men will or vote. This can be shown by multiple scriptures, but again this topic is about the Seventh Day. To continue discussion of this particular item, please begin a new thread.

Again, this is not about “catholics”, but rather it is about official Roman Catholic teaching and dogma which are in error, especially upon the point of this particular Commandment, being the seventh day sabbath of the Lord thy God.

Since you believe that the Seventh Day Adventist position on the AntiChrist [Greek/English: antichristos, “in the place of Christ”; and Latin/English: vicarius christi, “in the place of Christ”] and/or the Little Horn of Daniel, Man of Sin of Thessalonians, the specific power in Revelation, etc to be in error, perhaps you would prove your position and would like to begin another thread to discuss it in earnest? If not here in these threads, I offer you the chance to pm me in private. I would like to share official Roman Catholic statements with you, from the highest sources and everything inbetween. Everything single word can be substantiated. But please let us not overly shift the topic of this thread here to that subject.

This thread is upon Rome’s Challenge and what it specifically has to say.

Since you are jewish, perhaps some of the typology in the scriptures can convince you of a few things…

 

[TheSeventhDay]

I believe that you should reflect on what Filioque is saying. You were once Catholic. You are presenting this dialogue about what you have found. Go over the following and let me know if this is what you want me to believe, in other words you gave up what I believe for this?

…It’s like if you ask one if they believe in the Trinity and they say “yeah, Father, Son and Holy Spirit - the Trinity”.

Then a few weeks into the “Prophecy Study” they invited you to, you hear them mentioning how Christ could have lost His eternal Salvation…
…Then you say something does not compute - ya go and spent a bunch of time on their archive search engine.
…And discover a theology that’s as alien to the truth as it gets.

The beef I have is that they hold these “Explore The Prophetic” ( that’s what they call it ) programs with lots of razzle dazzle…
…And toward the middle of it they flat out say the Pope is part of the Antichrist power.
…And that a Pope stole the real Sabbath and traded it for Sunday.
…And now that you know this what are you gonna do about it!

I had that experience myself and after digging into the carcas which is SDA theology…
…I discovered a most maggoty mess and with all the Catholics who have been tricked into this foul mess.
…I intend on doing my part to get the word out what the REAL teachings of this Church is.

And to think that they have the gall to trick uneducated people into believing the Catholic Church has teaching against the Bible…
…And is the Beast power and Antichrist all rolled into one.
…While they still maintain a Christ that is less than One True God!
…WOW!

…Within a year or so the “once” Catholic will be looking toward heaven clutching a Bible & affirming Christ could have sinned and lost His salvation.

Ellen White
I saw that God had NOT changed the Sabbath, for He never changes. But the Pope had changed it from the seventh to the first day of the week: for he was to change time and laws.A Word to the Little Flock, p. 18.

Ellen White
In the holiest I saw an ark; … In the ark was the golden pot of manna, Aaron’s rod that budded, and the tables of stone which folded together like a book. Jesus opened them, and I saw the ten commandments written on them with the finger of God. On one table were four, and on the other six. The four on the first table shone brighter than the other six. But the fourth, the Sabbath commandment, shone above them all; for the Sabbath was set apart to be kept in honor of God’s holy name. The holy Sabbath looked glorious–a halo of glory was all around it. Early Writings of Ellen G. White, page 32, 33.

Ellen White
I saw all that “would not receive the mark of the Beast, and of his Image, in their foreheads or in their hands,” could not buy or sell. O REV. 13: 15–17.] I saw that the number (666) of the Image Beast was made up; P REV. 13: 18.] and that it was the Beast that changed the Sabbath, and the Image Beast had followed on after, and kept the Pope’s, and not God’s Sabbath. And all we were required to do, was to give up God’s Sabbath, and keep the Pope’s, and then we should have the mark of the Beast, and of his image

In the SDA rubric Matthew 5,18 is taken to mean that since the world “never ends” God’s holy law will never end…
…With the 10 Commandments being in SDA mind the only real “law of God”.
…The Saturday Sabbath will never terminate - God Himself is required to keep it, or else.

From this the SDA follows the prophetic utterance of Ellen White that Jesus didn’t come to “fulfill” the law and terminate the 1st Covenant…
…Instead Christ came for the express purpose to “Vindicate” God’s Holy law of which the Sabbath is the most important part of that law.
…And a Christian, if they are to be saved must also continue to Vindicate the Saturday Sabbath.

It would appear that you can satisfy your obligation as I said at 5pm mass on Saturday and still be vindicated.

Please remain on Topic of this thread please… Rome’s Challenge. To speak on the other subjects, please begin a new thread for each individual topic. Thank you.

 

[TheSeventhDay]

Again we are being taught that Jesus’ word was not worthy. He promised to remain with His Church until the consumation of the earth. He promised that the Holy Spirit, the Paraclete would guide the Church… We find out now that for 1800 plus years God allowed the world to wallow in error, and be guided by a false leader, whom He Himself set up. over 1800 years later Mrs. White would without any Biblical Authority not keep silent in Church, and finally expose the truth as Jesus, His Apostles, and their successors could not,

Jesus’ word is most trustworthy. Have there not been cited numerous passages indicating it as such?

God foretold the great apostacy event to happen in Daniel, and even through the typology of the Old Testament from Genesis to Malachi.

Additionally:

My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children. Hosea 4:6

It always amazes me that Sister Ellen G White is brought up first [at least in the conversations I have been a part of] always by the person who is not a Seventh Day Adventist. Ex-SDA are the most notorious for it, as if they have nothing else to discuss but her, their whole religion simply reduced to a negative [and most incorrect] focus upon her. It is quite saddening. Numerous quotations from Rome itself and from the Scriptures and history have been cited. These still yet remain. If you or any would like to discuss Sister Ellen G. White, please begin a new thread.

Please re-read the Book of Revelation, the true church of God was chased into the wilderness, for a long time…

…God then foretold that time when it should ‘reappear’ [though it has always been]…

…the beginning and purpose of the end-time prophetic Movement of the Seventh Day Adventists is also found in the Book of Revelation…

…but this topic is about Rome’s Challenge…

 

[TheSeventhDay]

I was just going to point this out. If the Sunday worship was such a wrong, and the Church was falling into heresy and sin against God because of this, why did not God send somebody to correct the day of worship within the first, let us say, 200 years of Christianity? Why wait 1800 years later? Looks like God was asleep at the wheel, isn’t it?

Another point…why wait, if EGW was indeed sent by God to correct the day of worship, why did God not send her in the first 200 yrs? Why 1800?

Please do not take this personally, as it is given for the system itself:

And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. Revelation 2:21

Yet he sent prophets to them, to bring them again unto the LORD; and they testified against them: but they would not give ear. 2 Chronicles 24:19

Since the day that your fathers came forth out of the land of Egypt unto this day I have even sent unto you all my servants the prophets, daily rising up early and sending [them]: Jeremiah 7:25

Yet they hearkened not unto me, nor inclined their ear, but hardened their neck: they did worse than their fathers. Jeremiah 7:26

And the LORD hath sent unto you all his servants the prophets, rising early and sending [them]; but ye have not hearkened, nor inclined your ear to hear. Jeremiah 25:4

To hearken to the words of my servants the prophets, whom I sent unto you, both rising up early, and sending [them], but ye have not hearkened; Jeremiah 26:5

Because they have not hearkened to my words, saith the LORD, which I sent unto them by my servants the prophets, rising up early and sending [them]; but ye would not hear, saith the LORD. Jeremiah 29:19

I have sent also unto you all my servants the prophets, rising up early and sending [them], saying, Return ye now every man from his evil way, and amend your doings, and go not after other gods to serve them, and ye shall dwell in the land which I have given to you and to your fathers: but ye have not inclined your ear, nor hearkened unto me. Jeremiah 35:15

O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, [thou] that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under [her] wings, and ye would not! Matthew 23:37

Why 1800? The Book of Daniel, given by God foretold… Daniel 8:14 among others in that Book…

 

[TheSeventhDay]

Remember that this was said earlier?:

"In fact, please allow me to quote from Article III [Roman Catholic 3rd Commandment] from the current and official Roman Catholic Catechism from the Vatican’s own website:

"Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor, and do all your work; but the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God; in it you shall not do any work.90

The sabbath was made for man, not man for the sabbath; so the Son of Man is lord even of the sabbath.91"

"90 ⇒ Ex 20:8-10; cf. ⇒ Deut 5:12-15.

91 ⇒ Mk 2:27-28." [PART THREE: LIFE IN CHRIST; SECTION TWO THE TEN COMMANDMENTS; CHAPTER ONE YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND’; Article 3 THE THIRD COMMANDMENT]
**
Please notice that the passage that is quoted for the Commandment is Exodus 20:8-10 and Deuteronomy 5:12-15. Absolutely fascinating that in this part of the Catechism the remainder of the Commandment is not quoted… Exodus 20:11. And does any know “why” it was done? I do, and I am going to show why…"**"

Well, let us consider why this was done now…

 

[Filioque]

Please demonstrate from the scriptures that “the seventh day” which is “the sabbath of the Lord thy God”, was ever strictly for the Jews, or ever called the “jewish sabbath” in scripture. Considering the vastness of scripture, it is called “the Sabbath of the Lord thy God”, it is His Holy Day, never the sabbath of the jews or jewish sabbath. Consider also, if you will, that the nation of Israel was to be the light to the gentiles…Since you are jewish, perhaps some of the typology in the scriptures can convince you of a few things…

My being raised a Jew and my conversion to the Catholic faith (in part due to the lies told about the Catholic Church by the SDA sect) bring me to reject that error of having to prove all things by the Bible alone. However as the Decalgogue was given to Moses in the desert and taken down the mountain to the Children of Israel, and not to the Pagans, combined with the fact that the rest of the law was given to Israel and not to the Pagan world no matter what the SDA re-writing of history, or theology tells you. The children of Abraham were bound to circumcision. When the Law was given to Moses the law was expanded. But nowhere do we see that God or the Jews imposed the requirements of the Law on non-jews.

Israel being a light unto the Gentiles does not mean as you imply that the Law was binding on any Gentile who did not convert. We read in the NT of those Gentiles who did take some of the law upon themselves, they attended services in the Synagogue, even were in attendance at the Temple, but only allowed in the Court of the Gentiles. We know that they did not take upon themselves the entire Law, but only those things they wanted to follow. Only once they complied with the Brit Olam did they take the full responsibility of the Law upon themselves. If the Rabbis and the Priests in the Temple did not require those Gentiles who lived sometimes a full lifetime among and attended services at the temple but had not as of yet converted, and nowhere in the Scriptures do the Commandments of the Law obligate Gentiles to the Law, where do you come up with the requirement?
As for your other rants against the Church, among them Apostolic Succession, we do read in the NT that after Jesus preached to the various Knesset, He retreated away with the Apostles to teach them further. We are not told in the Scriptures what He told them in private, does that negate what He said to them as He elaborated on what the crowd was told? If it’s not written in Scripture, at least from the postition you have taken of needing it to be proven by the Scripture alone (something you don’t require of yourself) then Jesus must have been wasting His and the Apostles time. We also see that after Judas hangs himself that the Apostles meet to elect a replacement and after choosing him lay hands on him so a successor can take his place. Nowhere do we read in the Bible that Jesus instructed the Apostles to replace an Apostle when he dies, either Jesus instructed them and they followed an Oral Teaching, or the Apostles knew that they had the authority to make decisions that effected the Church.

St. Paul speaks of his fellow workers who the various Churches have as leaders over them, they to have had hands laid on them by the Apostle, they are to be given the same honor as would be given him, in essence they succeded the authority he had when he was among the local Church, we read that the local church should submit to their authority. While the words Apostolic Succession are not used in the BIble, but were later applied to describe what happened in these cases and after, it does not mean that what took place cannot be defined as Apostolic Succession, but rather proves it.

 

[CopticChristian]

Please remain on Topic of this thread please… Rome’s Challenge. To speak on the other subjects, please begin a new thread for each individual topic. Thank you.

The topic if Rome’s Challenge. You have geared it towards fulfilling your Sunday obligation with Mass on Saturday. It appears that you don’t like the Challenge.

 

[CopticChristian]

Jesus’ word is most trustworthy. Have there not been cited numerous passages indicating it as such?

God foretold the great apostacy event to happen in Daniel, and even through the typology of the Old Testament from Genesis to Malachi.

Additionally:

My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children. Hosea 4:6

It always amazes me that Sister Ellen G White is brought up first [at least in the conversations I have been a part of] always by the person who is not a Seventh Day Adventist. Ex-SDA are the most notorious for it, as if they have nothing else to discuss but her, their whole religion simply reduced to a negative [and most incorrect] focus upon her. It is quite saddening. Numerous quotations from Rome itself and from the Scriptures and history have been cited. These still yet remain. If you or any would like to discuss Sister Ellen G. White, please begin a new thread.

Please re-read the Book of Revelation, the true church of God was chased into the wilderness, for a long time…

…God then foretold that time when it should ‘reappear’ [though it has always been]…

…the beginning and purpose of the end-time prophetic Movement of the Seventh Day Adventists is also found in the Book of Revelation…

…but this topic is about Rome’s Challenge…/QUOTE]

What is Rome’s Challenge? I’m speaking with a Seventh Day Adventist, and I don’t have that many resources to understand some parts of their doctrine, etc. Apologetics resources would be helpful.

 

[Filioque]

Remember that this was said earlier?:

"In fact, please allow me to quote from Article III [Roman Catholic 3rd Commandment] from the current and official Roman Catholic Catechism from the Vatican’s own website:

"Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor, and do all your work; but the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God; in it you shall not do any work.90

The sabbath was made for man, not man for the sabbath; so the Son of Man is lord even of the sabbath.91"

"90 ⇒ Ex 20:8-10; cf. ⇒ Deut 5:12-15.

91 ⇒ Mk 2:27-28." [PART THREE: LIFE IN CHRIST; SECTION TWO THE TEN COMMANDMENTS; CHAPTER ONE YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND’; Article 3 THE THIRD COMMANDMENT]
**
Please notice that the passage that is quoted for the Commandment is Exodus 20:8-10 and Deuteronomy 5:12-15. Absolutely fascinating that in this part of the Catechism the remainder of the Commandment is not quoted… Exodus 20:11. And does any know “why” it was done? I do, and I am going to show why…"**"

Well, let us consider why this was done now…

I’m sure your sources will tell you why they think it to be so. The reality is the Catechism, and the sources quoted on the webpage posted at the beginning of the thread are not the entire Catholic rationale for how and why the Sabbath was transferred by the authority given the Church from Saturday to Sunday. But simply cherry picked and distorted to make it seem that the entire rationale for the transfer was covered in the few selected passages.

The choice of the few texts and the sections that were republished are in fact only a small part of the argument, and an honest scholar would not limit himself to a few quotes isolated from the entire body of Catholic teaching. Another point is stressing the Imprimater and Nihil Obstat as making the source an Offical Catholic Book, rather than what it simply means, the book has been examined, and there is nothing contrary to the Faith is contained in the book. What the two statements do not mean is that the entire subject has been discussed by the author, simply that his opinions expressed in the book are (be he a layman, priest, bishop, cardinal or even Pope) are not contrary to the Faith, not the full and final decision of the Church.

A couple of examples of the same deciet I’ve encountered. A pseudo Orthodox priest I know of posted on another discussion board as proof of a change in Catholic Theology that Cardinal Manning wrote prior to the First Vatican Council that the Catholic Church denied that the Pope was Infallible, and Cardinal Newman argued against the defintion of Infallibility. Well he was only partially correct, I won’t speculate if he was ill informed, and uneducated on the history and subject, much the same as the webpage, or if he was just a dishonest historian. The fact is that to the English Protestants before Vatican I, the idea was that Papal Infallibility meant that the Pope could never err, in daily life, or on subjects not related to Faith and Morals. That the Pope was Impeccible and could not sin. They believed that the Catholic Church taught that the Pope could change what was in Scripture. So when Cardinal Manning wrote that the Catholic Church did not believe in Papal Infallibility, he was commenting on the incorrect idea of Infalliblity that English Protestants equated with the term. Cardinal Newman, who supported the teaching, did not feel it was the best time to define it, because of the inaccurate ideas that Protestants in England thought Infalliblity held. Both Manning and Newman knew their audience having been converts from Protestantim, and having to overcome the incorrect concepts they had against the Catholic Church.

 

[Cavaradossi]

Please demonstrate from the scriptures that “the seventh day” which is “the sabbath of the Lord thy God”, was ever strictly for the Jews, or ever called the “jewish sabbath” in scripture. Considering the vastness of scripture, it is called “the Sabbath of the Lord thy God”, it is His Holy Day, never the sabbath of the jews or jewish sabbath. Consider also, if you will, that the nation of Israel was to be the light to the gentiles…

Please demonstrate from the scriptures where they command that the scriptures are the only authority, and that God does not change things through divine revelation. In the book of Acts, we can see the very workings of Holy Spirit within the early Church when the Council of Jerusalem declares circumcision to be unnecessary for gentile Christians. Christ rose on the eighth day, and thus through the life-giving influence of the Holy Spirit within the Church, it was similarly decided within the Church that the eighth day, not the seventh would become the new day of worship within the Church. If you cling blindly to only the scriptures, then you have choked all of the life out of your soul, for God is a living entity, not a book of rules.

 

[Filioque]

Please do not take this personally, as it is given for the system itself:…Why 1800? The Book of Daniel, given by God foretold… Daniel 8:14 among others in that Book…

I’m skipping over several of the filler “proofs” because I don’t find them compelling. As for your sects use of the passage from Daniel, I can make up a theory that it really means that in 2230 the temple will be rebuilt and restored because that is 2300 years after the building of the mosque on the Temple mount. It is just as novel and prophetic as EGW’s fiction.

 

[pablope]

**Please demonstrate from the scriptures that “the **seventh day” Since you are jewish, perhaps some of the typology in the scriptures can convince you of a few things…

Before you go on…I suggest that you lay down your foundation first…since we Catholics do not believe in Scripture alone…I strongly suggest that you prove first to us why Scripture is to followed solely.

Convince us first that Scripture is the sole rule of faith. Otherwise, you have no foundation to convince us of your arguments.

And also, prove that your interpretation of Scripture is “INFALLIBLE” and free from error. In other words, establish your authority to speak authoritatively about your interpretation of the Bible. Otherwise, your interpretations are no better than a cult minister who misuses scripture for other foul means.

 

[pablope]

QUOTE=TheSeventhDay;8364986]Please do not take this personally, as it is given for the system itself:

Because they have not hearkened to my words, saith the LORD, which I sent unto them by my servants the prophets, rising up early and sending [them]; but ye would not hear, saith the LORD. Jeremiah 29:19

I have sent also unto you all my servants the prophets, rising up early and sending [them], saying, Return ye now every man from his evil way, and amend your doings, and go not after other gods to serve them, and ye shall dwell in the land which I have given to you and to your fathers: but ye have not inclined your ear, nor hearkened unto me. Jeremiah 35:15

O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, [thou] that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under [her] wings, and ye would not! Matthew 23:37

And your point being? What do these passages prove? First, establish your pedigree…from what authority do you interpret these passages? And why should I believe you?

Prove first that Scriptures is the sole rule of faith.

Why 1800? The Book of Daniel, given by God foretold… Daniel 8:14 among others in that Book…

Wrong. The book of Daniel does not foretell such a thing. Besides, you are making God a lazy God…why would he let all those millions of Christiand fall into heresy prior to 1800 abd condemn them to Hell?

Looks like the God you worship is different from the God of Catholics.

He would have acted sooner. Study the life of Catherine of Sienna and you will gain a perspective on how God acts.

 

[Protector]

I was just going to point this out. If the Sunday worship was such a wrong, and the Church was falling into heresy and sin against God because of this, why did not God send somebody to correct the day of worship within the first, let us say, 200 years of Christianity? Why wait 1800 years later? Looks like God was asleep at the wheel, isn’t it?

Would the Church have listened to this person sent from God I wonder? In any case, Sabbath and Sunday were kept as holy days “side by side” for some time after the creation of the Sunday (in remembrance of the Resurrection):-

Quote: "The weekly Christian Sunday …did not at first generally become a substitute for the Bible seventh-day Sabbath, Saturday; for both Saturday and Sunday were widely kept side by side for several centuries in early Christian history. Socrates Scholasticus, a church historian of the fifth century A.D., wrote, “For although almost all churches throughout the world celebrate the sacred mysteries [the Lord’s Supper] on the Sabbath of every week, yet the Christians of Alexandria and at Rome, on account of some ancient tradition, have ceased to do this…”.(Kenneth A. Strand)…[This paragraph is a copy from one of my earlier posts in this thread.] Protector.

Originally Posted by CopticChristian ……

(QUOTE: In the SDA rubric Matthew 5,18 is taken to mean that since the world “never ends” God’s holy law will never end…(/QUOTE)…

“Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.” (Luke 21:33 – D-R),
“However, it is easier for heaven and earth to disappear than for one stroke of a letter in the Law to be dropped.” Luke 16:17 - International Standard Version (©2008)).

Protector.

 

[pablope]

Would the Church have listened to this person sent from God I wonder? In any case, Sabbath and Sunday were kept as holy days “side by side” for some time after the creation of the Sunday (in remembrance of the Resurrection):-

I suggest you read up on the life of St. Catherine of Sienna, and of St. Francis and St. Dominic. These were reformers sent by God, and see how the Church listened and how reform was accomplished.

 

[CopticChristian]

I suggest you read up on the life of St. Catherine of Sienna, and of St. Francis and St. Dominic. These were reformers sent by God, and see how the Church listened and how reform was accomplished.

 

[Protector]

It would not matter what you cited outside of the Catholic Church. Rome has declared that worship can take place on Saturday and Sunday. If you choose to be Catholic you can continue to worship on Saturday.:thumbsup:

What hour is specified for the start of the Worship Service on Saturdays?

Protector.

 

[TheSeventhDay]

The topic if Rome’s Challenge. You have geared it towards fulfilling your Sunday obligation with Mass on Saturday. It appears that you don’t like the Challenge.

Hello. The original question was based upon Rome’s Challenge. The secondary question was based upon Seventh Day Adventist beliefs in connection to Rome’s Challenge, therefore namely the 7th Day.

However, since it seems the question of Adventist beliefs continues to arise, then we shall discuss them. Which would you like to discuss first? I also ask if I may directly link resource materials in conneciton with the topic if needed? Not as my answer, but in addition to the answers given?

As was stated, I am no longer Roman Catholic [though I had been for 30 years, I understand Roman Catholic theology, and I hope that by our discussion of these things, people will consider what it is that they actually believe]. Seventh Day Adventists do not ‘celebrate mass’ on any day, ever. It is anthema to Jesus Christ according to the scriptures. If this particular subject is of interest, then let us please discuss it in some explicit detail.

I would also ask that any such persons willing to discuss the topic please consider what is said in full and the resources [if they are allowed] in full.

 

[TheSeventhDay]

I’m sure your sources will tell you why they think it to be so. [The source is scripture and thus also history] The reality is the Catechism [We shall be discussing this in some detail.], and the sources quoted on the webpage posted ****** at the beginning of the thread are not the entire Catholic rationale for how and why the Sabbath was transferred by the authority given the Church from Saturday to Sunday ******. But simply cherry picked and distorted [Please allow me to assure you and all, that nothing in the sources I use are ‘cherry-picked’. Those which are quoted will reveal the ideology taught by Rome] to make it seem that the entire rationale for the transfer was covered in the few selected passages.

The choice of the few texts and the sections that were republished are in fact only a small part of the argument, and an honest scholar would not limit himself to a few quotes isolated [Please allow me to assure that I do not. Keep always in mind, that I was Roman Catholic, and have many other sources at my perusal, even most current ones. Not too many I should think that not too many Roman Catholics have read too much of the body of Roman Catholic literature, or even those promulgated by popes, but let each demonstrate their understanding personally.] from the entire body of Catholic teaching ******. Another point is stressing the Imprimater and Nihil Obstat as making the source an Offical Catholic Book [Please allow me to assure you that I do not do this. I understand the intent of both the Imprimatur and Nihil Obstat, and their correct use. But, in so doing, many will find that they will come to a problem even with those terms…], rather than what it simply means, the book has been examined, and there is nothing contrary to the Faith is contained in the book [Please remember that this was stated, “nothing contrary to the Faith”, and consider which faith that would be secondarily…]. What the two statements do not mean is that the entire subject has been discussed by the author [Please allow me to say, that I will never suggest this, but also notice that this is usually the same demands when one finds oneself backed into a corner in Roman Catholic theology, but nevertheless, let us look at each such case individually…], simply that his opinions expressed in the book are (be he a layman, priest, bishop, cardinal or even Pope ← that last one will have to be discussed further at another time…]) are not contrary to the Faith, not the full and final decision of the Church ← this last idea, should also be discussed according to Roman Catholic theology, but later…].

A couple of examples of the same deciet I’ve encountered ******. A pseudo Orthodox priest I know of posted on another discussion board as proof of a change in Catholic Theology that Cardinal Manning wrote prior to the First Vatican Council that the Catholic Church denied that the Pope was Infallible [Please allow me to say that this is not questioned as a Roman Catholic teaching, but that does not make it, “infallibility” correct, and we can discuss that later…], and Cardinal Newman argued against the defintion of Infallibility. Well he was only partially correct, I won’t speculate if he was ill informed, and uneducated on the history and subject, much the same as the webpage, or if he was just a dishonest historian. The fact is that to the English Protestants before Vatican I [Please allow me to say that Vatican II changed nothing of the former, only more deeply expounded upon what was, this can be proven by the very statements of the Romna Curia, the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith [Inquisition].], the idea was that Papal Infallibility meant that the Pope could never err, in daily life, or on subjects not related to Faith and Morals. That the Pope was Impeccible and could not sin. They believed that the Catholic Church taught that the Pope could change what was in Scripture. So when Cardinal Manning wrote that the Catholic Church did not believe in Papal Infallibility … Both Manning and Newman knew their audience having been converts from Protestantim, and having to overcome the incorrect concepts they had against the Catholic Church. [But, remember, I was fully Roman Catholic 30 years, and woule also like to add that I worked briefly for a Roman Catholic ministry, that dealt with the Roman Catholic saints, sites, miracles, etc, called experts on the subject, and as seen on EWTN, so I understand Roman Catholic theology, hopefully you will understand this as more evidence is presented further in. Judge for yourself.]

Comments of mine, interposed, in blue. Also edited, paritally to fit.

 

[TheSeventhDay]

…Are you not up for the Challenge?

As David was to Goliath.