Rome's Challenge

[TheSeventhDay]

I’m skipping over several of the filler “proofs” because I don’t find them compelling. As for your sects use of the passage from Daniel, I can make up a theory that it really means that in 2230 the temple will be rebuilt and restored because that is 2300 years after the building of the mosque on the Temple mount. It is just as novel and prophetic as EGW’s fiction.

"Sect"****? They called the first Christians such, so it really is more endearing than many realize when it is used…

For we have found this man [a] pestilent [fellow], and a mover of sedition among all the Jews throughout the world, and a ringleader of the sect of the Nazarenes: **Acts 24:5
**
So I will confess with Paul:

**But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets: **Acts 24:14

**As for Daniel 8:14, and yea, the whole of it, as well as all of scripture, is determined from what itself says. If you will allow me some time to demonstrate?

No one, without harm to the scriptures and to themselves, can ‘make up’ their own interpretations.**

Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 2 Peter 1:10

**So, by the very mouth of Peter [does he not carry some weight?], private interpretations are out, and so there is no "yours, mine or theirs’ and neither ‘to each their own’. There is only one way, they way in which scripture gives it and defines it.

I would hope that the animosity against Sister White would not enter into the conversation, but that all would sincerely look at the evidences on their own merits.

Ellen G. White is not the source, no more than Nathan the Prophet or Miraim, or Jonah, or Daniel, etc., were. Jesus Christ is the Truth and His Testimony the Spirit of Prophecy.

[P.S., if the color is offensive, or not helpful, please let me know, I will dispense with it, except in certain cases. Thank you.]**

 

[TheSeventhDay]

I suggest you read up on the life of St. Catherine of Sienna, and of St. Francis and St. Dominic. These were reformers sent by God, and see how the Church listened and how reform was accomplished.

 

[TheSeventhDay]

… Looks like the God you worship is different from the God of Catholics. …

There is a great deal to this statement… but so that this response does not seem to imply one thing over another, we shall have to look at the evidence, shall we not?

 

[TheSeventhDay]

**The Seventh Day Adventist Movement is not only rooted in all of the Scripture [from which every single doctrine that is believed and taught comes from], but even moreso as found in the Books of Daniel and Revelation. Shall any want to see how?

But he said, Yea rather, blessed [are] they that hear the word of God, and keep it. Luke 11:28

Blessed [is] he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time [is] at hand. Revelation 1:3**

 

[pablope]

What hour is specified for the start of the Worship Service on Saturdays?

Protector.

Depends on the parish. But nothing earlier than 4 pm. Most parishes have them at 5 pm, some as late as 7 pm.

 

[pablope]

Comments of mine, interposed, in blue. Also edited, paritally to fit.

I suggest you learn how to use the quote button.

When you respond to a post with the post…in the reply box, delete this…"." at the end of the post…this frees up the formatting.

Highlight the particular section you want to reply to…then click on the “quote” button on top of the reply box. This is on the left of the “#” button. then repeat as needed.

 

[TheSeventhDay]

I suggest you learn how to use the quote button. …

Thank you for the tip, but I have been in many other forums before. I prefer it the other way, as it also keeps the code to a minimum, but if it seems to interfere too greatly later on, I suppose breaking it up into multiple quotes would also work.

 

[pablope]

The Seventh Day Adventist Movement is not only rooted in all of the Scripture [from which every single doctrine that is believed and taught comes from], but even moreso as found in the Books of Daniel and Revelation. Shall any want to see how?

B]

Actually, the SDA are not the only claimaints to their Scriptural basis. There are over 30,000 other claimants. So which one is the real thing?

As suggested by Post 70 and 72, you need to lay your foundation and pedigree first.

So, where does the Bible state that is the source of all doctrine? the sole rule of faith? Does the Bible state is the pillar and foundation of truth?

 

[pablope]

Thank you for the tip, but I have been in many other forums before. I prefer it the other way, as it also keeps the code to a minimum, but if it seems to interfere too greatly later on, I suppose breaking it up into multiple quotes would also work.

You are welcome. I think breaking it up in little quotes is better to the eyes.

 

[TheSeventhDay]

Actually, the SDA are not the only claimaints to their Scriptural basis. There are -]over 30,000/-] other claimants. So which one is the real thing? …

Would you like to see which one? Then let us go to the scriptures.

 

[Protector]

I’m skipping over several of the filler “proofs” because I don’t find them compelling. As for your sects use of the passage from Daniel, I can make up a theory that it really means that in 2230 the temple will be rebuilt and restored because that is 2300 years after the building of the mosque on the Temple mount. It is just as novel and prophetic as EGW’s fiction.

Now that really is a novel idea Filioque: does your theory take into account the 360 day year of the Jews? This is a serious question here, I’m not just “pulling your string”.

Protector.

 

[Protector]

Depends on the parish. But nothing earlier than 4 pm. Most parishes have them at 5 pm, some as late as 7 pm.

Which means that the Worship Service in the wintertime would probably be after sundown on Saturday (depending on the latitude), which means that the Service is really being held on the Sunday (Sabbath runs from sundown Friday to sundown Saturday). Just a thought pablope.

Protector.

 

[TheSeventhDay]

… As suggested by Post 70 and 72, you need to lay your foundation and pedigree first.

So, where does the Bible state that is the source of all doctrine? the sole rule of faith? Does the Bible state is the pillar and foundation of truth?

Let us see if the answer can be found by asking a series of questions…

According to Jesus, and scripture John 10:35 specifically], "Can the scriptures be broken?"

It is either “yes” or “no”.

 

[Protector]

But there are far more than the Ten Commandments which make up the Law. Unless your Bible is limited to the Ten Commandments, Daniel, and the NT.

So again, aside from unclean animals being clean, (and I don’t see any change in the requirements on how to kill them, so the Old Laws on how to kill and butcher the animals, must still be in force). What other parts of the Law, which are nowhere in the NT abrogated must we follow?

Which laws/ordinances does the CC say that St Paul is talking about in Colossians 2:14:-

“Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to His cross;” Was it perhaps, the Ceremonial Laws?

Protector.

 

[Filioque]

Now that really is a novel idea Filioque: does your theory take into account the 360 day year of the Jews? This is a serious question here, I’m not just “pulling your string”.

Protector.

The theory is one that I read many years ago by some odd sect, as I did not have the resource in front of me, and really put as much credibility in it as the prophecies of EGW and Rutheford, as well as others who established the various sects that spun out of early Adventist revivals, so I extrapolated a date using the Current Secular Calendar, however if I find the resource, I’ll check to see what they made up.

 

[pablope]

Let us see if the answer can be found by asking a series of questions…

According to Jesus, and scripture John 10:35 specifically], "Can the scriptures be broken?"

It is either “yes” or “no”.

Here is the whole context…

John 10:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are “gods”’[d]? 35 If he called them ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be set aside— 36 what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’? 37 Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father. 38 But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.” 39 Again they tried to seize him, but he escaped their grasp.

This section does not answer, or rather, you did not answer the question…again the question is: So, where does the Bible state that is the source of all doctrine? the sole rule of faith? Does the Bible state is the pillar and foundation of truth?

This verse or verses does answer the questions above. Verse 34 speaks of the law…or law of moses…so taken in context, verse 35 either references the Torah or Pentatuech, or Septuagint…which was used as scripture at that time these words were said.

So, I suggest you try again. Moreover…my question is the sole rule of faith…nowhere did I state to exclude the Bible.

 

[pablope]

Which means that the Worship Service in the wintertime would probably be after sundown on Saturday (depending on the latitude), which means that the Service is really being held on the Sunday (Sabbath runs from sundown Friday to sundown Saturday). Just a thought pablope.

Protector.

I ask…so what? Which is more important…to get the opportunity to worship and receive the Lord…with you whole heart and sincerity? Or to worry about the time?

 

[pablope]

Which laws/ordinances does the CC say that St Paul is talking about in Colossians 2:14:-

“Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to His cross;” Was it perhaps, the Ceremonial Laws?

Protector.

The Mosaic Law…which merely signified our need for salvation.

Ephesians 2:14-16
14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace, 16 and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility.

 

[Filioque]

Now that really is a novel idea Filioque: does your theory take into account the 360 day year of the Jews? This is a serious question here, I’m not just “pulling your string”.Protector.

As an addition to my comments. If you simply insist on a 360 day calendar, and forget that Adar II is included as an additional month in routine cycles in order to correct the Liturgical Calendar. So in reality if you have a cycle of decades the missing five days would be corrected.

More important is that people like the Adventists, Jehovah’s Witnesses and other Millenialists have tried to impose thier own interpretation on Scripture to make it form their own novel theories like the one I mentioned. Having no basis on anything but their own system of numerology.

It is important too that we find out a few things from you and Seventh Day in order to establish credibility though. The issue of the Seventh Day Shabbos has no standing if we don’t get an answer to these questions as a start.

1. Where Does the BIble state that it is the only source of Doctrine.
2. SDA denies the Divinity of Jesus, so what authority did he have, and what authority did
   He give to the Apostles when He told them All authority was given Him by the Father, and… wait for it, keep waiting… Oh yeah, He gave that authority to them as a group,
   then in a separate instance to Peter as the Rock. You will also note that it was not simply enough for the sheet to decend with unclean animals and for the voice from heaven to declare what was once unclean was now clean, but that a Council of the Apostles was called to discuss the subject of what was binding to the Church, and Peter’s solemn declaration, after the prophetic vision.
3. Jesus promised to remain with His Church until the end of the world, a concept denied by the successors of most Adventist groups, (SDA, JW etc) when did He abandon the Church He promised to remain with and withdraw their authority. Based on your requirements first show it in Scripture alone, then show your work by history.

Now if you point out scandals in history vs. changes in doctrine promulgated by the Magesterium, you have to apply the same to the SDA or any other sect. When I was a student at Loma Linda there were quite a few scandals among SDA members and leadership, so if you use immoral Popes, well you have to concede that Immoral leaders in the SDA or any other Church are enough to make the entire system no longer a valid expression of Christ’s Message.

You see, if a new religion like SDA or any Protestant Church is to be taken seriously, they need to show their credentials, their authority, God given to assume the authority Jesus gave the Apostles, and they translated to their successors. Once established, we can delight in the new revelations they promote.

 

[MarysRoses]

What is Rome’s Challenge? I’m speaking with a Seventh Day Adventist, and I don’t have that many resources to understand some parts of their doctrine, etc. Apologetics resources would be helpful.

Talking to Adventists……

Anyone untaking studying with an Adventist needs to consider the following.

They will use a lot of quotes from historical figures, historical information and bible verses to support their position. Some of them will seem very favorable to their arguments. You can always give an honest answer of “I haven’t heard that, I will look into it.” Then DO look into it, from independent sources or msg me if you want or post a thread. Many quotes from the early Church fathers are taken out of context. Bible verses are open to differing interpretations. Many historical “facts”, are actually not supported generally by historians, sometimes not even by their own historians, so don’t let anything shake your convictions without studying the sources for yourself.

Some interesting questions for Adventists…

So… the sabbath was given to Israel.

WHEN was the sabbath given? Creation?

The first mention in the bible is this:

Hebrews 16:23
23And he said unto them, This is that which the LORD hath said, To morrow is the rest of the holy sabbath unto the LORD: bake that which ye will bake to day, and seethe that ye will seethe; and that which remaineth over lay up for you to be kept until the morning.

The hebrews had no idea about the sabbath, they tried to gather bread on the 7th day anyway…

29See, for that the LORD hath given you the sabbath, therefore he giveth you on the sixth day the bread of two days; abide ye every man in his place, let no man go out of his place on the seventh day.

It is interesting that the giving of the manna and the giving of the sabbath are at the same time. This is why they were to REMEMBER the sabbath… not from creation… but from the manna which fell six days.

Adventists will argue with my interpretation, but the prophet Nehemiah would seem to agree with me:

Neh. 9:13-14.
Thou camest down also upon mount Sinai, and spakest with them from heaven, and gavest them right judgments, and true laws, good statutes and commandments; and MADEST KNOWN UNTO THEM THY HOLY SABBATH, and commandedst them precepts, statutes, and laws, by the hand of Moses thy servant.

It doesn’t seem that the sabbath was known to the people before Exodus. According to the BIBLE.

My list of unanswered questions for Adventists:

Where in Genesis are WE commanded to keep the sabbath?

Let them look for the answer in vain. The seventh day was hallowed. Sabbath means to rest or cease… God ceased his works… and rested. Where is it recorded God “went back to work” ? Where are men told to follow his example? Where is there any record at all of anyone “keeping” a sabbath until it was given to Israel in the desert.

Where in the New Testament are CHRISTIANS commanded to keep the sabbath?

Let them look. Remember that the Jewish Christians attending sabbath services to preach to Jews doesn’t count as a command. You go where people are when they are gathered, in Israel, that would be the sabbath synagogue services. When in Athens, St. Paul went to the shrine of the “Unknown God” to preach. That doesn’t mean we are to gather at pagan temples to worship.

What is the biblical method for identifying “Saturday” (since Adventists allow for no exceptions) in all times and all places where men live?

A puzzle for Adventists: Adventists demonstrably accept changes in calendars which DO affect the order of days, most notably, the adoption of the International Date Line.

In the eastern Hemisphere, the saturday/sabbath falls BEFORE sabbath begins in Jerusalem. YET … Adventists can find no biblical command that allows this.

Adventists in Kiribati go to church on their Saturday… even though at the same exact time on the same line of longitude a few hundred miles to the north, it is Friday in Hawaii and Adventists are hard at work preparing for their sabbath, which is still in the future.

Think about this… the very SAME sunset that ENDS the Sabbath for kiribatian Adventists… BEGINS the Sabbath for Hawaiian Adventists…

I have pointed this inconsistency out Many MANY times on this forum, no adventist wants to tackle this difficult problem of theirs.

Evidently, this eternal, immutable law they like to talk about is easily changed by any civil government!

phys.uu.nl/~vgent/idl/idl_kiribati.htm

And interestingly, there are both Catholics and Adventists living on Kiribati. According to a forum member who lives on Kiribati, a Catholic who has adventist relatives… both groups follow the local calendar. That means at the very same time…while SDA people on Kiribati are “keeping” the sabbath on Saturday, local time, Adventists just north of them in Hawaii are busily working on their Friday, local time, to get ready for their sabbath the “next” day.

???

The letter of the law brings only death…

The spirit gives life.

How do you enter into the divine rest? Under the old covenant… God gave them a finite day to enter into this divine reality. Under the new… We have God Himself in the person of His divine Son, Jesus.
The Jews failed to enter into this divine, HOLY beyond human conception, rest that was hidden in the shadow of a day…
Christians have Jesus, who is all Holy and we find our rest in Him.
Again, fulfilling the shadow.

Adventists make the mistake of taking something infinitely Holy and beyond human understanding, and trying to tie it to something very limited… a particular day of the week.

God Bless,
MarysRoses