Rome's Challenge

[MarysRoses]

OK, I know, this will be a long post… but once I get started on this topic…

I’m a former SDA. I was at an SDA college in Keene TX in my senior year of working on a theology degree when I made the decision to become a Catholic. A lot of things led up to that decision… but obviously, I’ve thought a lot about Sabbath/Sunday issues then and through the years since.

This is a repost of some of my thoughts on the topic. I like to contribute them to sabbath discussions. This was written in response to a poster who claimed that since Catholics do believe the 10 commandments are moral law, we ought to be worshiping on Saturday, not Sunday: So here we go again! …

The “You” in these posts refers to the original poster on that other threadm but the posts still address the major topics of this thread, and a few yet to com up!

Adventists and Catholics both believe that the Ten Commandments are valid and binding. But there are differences in the details, which is why people are continually talking past each other in this thread.

You are right that there are problems when people say there is no law.

You agree that God’s eternal law is a law of Love. Something that existed before Adam and Eve were created, and will always continue. This law is woven directly into his creation… it is an expression of who God is. Societies instinctively know that some laws and rules are good and build up society, and some actions are things that tear apart families and society. Societies that allow murder, adultery, and stealing don’t last. People who live in them have shorter, unhappy lives.

Catholics believe that the ten commandments are binding… as an expression of this natural moral law. God’s law of love. An interesting contrast to me, is that Adventists believe the 10 commandments as written, word for word, in Exodus 20
are this eternal law.

So close… but such a difference.

Small divergences can have huge consequences.

Adventists believe that the sabbath commandment, as given in the 20th chapter of Exodus… is exactly the same as is inscribed on the tablets held in the ark of the covenant. Their prophetess, Ellen G. White, had a vision, that these tablets were now in heaven, and she said she saw a halo of light highlighting this sabbath commandment. She said that this commandment would be a test for believers, whether they truly follow God and are loyal to Him, or have been deceived by man, with an emphasis on sabbath being “given at creation” (her view… and Adventist teaching, the bible actually does not record it being kept by man until the time of Moses) and that the only proper day to “keep” it was the seventh day of the week… our Saturday.

Catholics believe that Exodus 20 is an expression of God’s eternal law…the natural, moral law, just as Deuteronomy 5 is an expression of God’s eternal law. Both passages list the 10 commandments. Both are essentially the same. But… they are not identical. The sabbath commandment has a different rationale in the two different chapters, both of which are accounts of the giving of the 10 commandments:

From Exodus 20:

8 "Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your animals, nor the alien within your gates. 11 For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

From Deuteronomy 5:

12 "Observe the Sabbath day by keeping it holy, as the LORD your God has commanded you. 13 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 14 but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your ox, your donkey or any of your animals, nor the alien within your gates, so that your manservant and maidservant may rest, as you do. 15 Remember that you were slaves in Egypt and that the LORD your God brought you out of there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm. Therefore the LORD your God has commanded you to observe the Sabbath day.

This difference presents no problem to Catholics… as we believe both passages, and both listings, are expressions of God’s law… not exact transcripts. Catholics believe the Ten Commandments are binding as moral law, not because we believe we are under the same covenant as Israel. Catholics believe Christians are under the New Covenant, and are not bound by the shadows contained in the old covenant.

Adventists have to consider the following… in deuteronomy the reason for the sabbath being given to the Hebrews was this:

Remember that you were slaves in Egypt and that the LORD your God brought you out of there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm. Therefore the LORD your God has commanded you to observe the Sabbath day.

Probably the first thing about my above statement that will jump out to an Adventist and prompt a quick response… “given to the Hebrews”. They would be quick to insist the sabbath was given at creation and was not just for Israel.

(Cont. next post…)

 

[MarysRoses]

Cont. from previous post…….

But look at the introduction to this chapter, Deuteronomy 5:1-3 :
1 Moses summoned all Israel and said:
Hear, O Israel, the decrees and laws I declare in your hearing today. Learn them and be sure to follow them. 2 The LORD our God made a covenant with us at Horeb. 3 It was not with our fathers that the LORD made this covenant, but with us, with all of us who are alive here today.

The Bible, specifically says this covenant was NOT WITH OUR FATHERS… This same chapter goes on to list the same essential commandments as Exodus 4… in fact this is another account of the same event, the covenant with Israel.

Yes… it is fair to say the sabbath is a memorial of creation. This reasoning is in Exodus 20. But it is also a fact that the sabbath is a memorial of Israel’s deliverance from bondage in Egypt, as recorded in Deuteronomy 5.

It is also an uncomfortable fact (for Adventists) that Deuteronomy affirms that this covenant was made with the Hebrews… at horeb, and explicitly says it was not made with their fathers.

I have not seen any credible biblical argument that the Ten Commandments, as recorded in Exodus 20, are an exact transcript of God’s eternal law. The fact that there are two versions of them in the bible, with different details but the same essentials shows that they are expressions of the same, deeper reality… not a word for word contract.

That said… what about the sabbath? Catholics accept the Ten Commandments are moral law. What is moral about the sabbath? What is shadow? What passed away withe the Old Covenant… what is binding under the new Law of Love that the NT says is written on the tables of our heart?

What is moral about the sabbath, and what is shadow?

Adventists teach that during the end times, the sabbath will become a matter of salvation. (some teach that it already is, but I’m trying to be charitable). Adventists cannot agree on exactly “how” to keep the sabbath. Some go out to eat, some won’t. Some warm food up… some don’t. Some will cook simple foods, some will only re heat. Some will go to the grocery store for necessities, some won’t.
All they can agree on is that whatever you do to keep “sabbath” holy, is that mostly, it involves going to church and even more importantly, that it has to happen on Saturday. Sunday will not do. To keep Sunday is to disobey God. “knowingly” keeping Sunday instead of Saturday if you have been given the “light” on the sabbath, will cost you your salvation.

Problem is, Saturday is an arbitrary, human designation. As such, Catholics do not see a moral precept that rest must be on Saturday. Saturday is not natural, and in actuality, you can’t even be sure what day you designate as Saturday, is in fact the biblical sabbath.

Adventists will argue the Jews have never lost sabbath… that is not quite correct. For most of the planet west of Jerusalem, that our “saturday” is congruent with the NT sabbath is fairly certain. East of Jerusalem to the international dateline, that is more tricky. In the polar regions where you may go days without a sunset… trickier still. And we now have the technology to live in space, where there is no sunrise/sunset at all. Even the Jewish scholars disagree on exactly how to keep the biblical sabbath on the International space station, or in the arctic where there is no sunrise/sundown some times during the year. There are rabbis that argue, that because of the international dateline ( a totally man made, imaginary line), Jews living EAST of Jerusalem and WEST of the dateline should not keep sabbath before it begins in Jerusalem, even if that means they keep sabbath on the day recognized by civil government as Sunday. Adventists follow the dateline, not the beginning of the sabbath in Jerusalem (which is biblical? who has the authority to say?)

The 10 commandments are binding as an expression of Natural, moral law. The old covenant and its shadows have been fulfilled. There is nothing natural about keeping “saturday” over any other day of the week. It doesn’t exist in nature. There is a moral precept in having time set aside for regular rest. (If you actually read the commandment, worship and assembly are not in there)

There is nothing morally superior about Saturday over Sunday for rest.

Adventists will argue that there is nothing natural about a 7 day week, and therefore, it only exists because of the sabbath, a Proof. Again… that is not correct. That is putting the cart before the horse. The natural origin of the week is apparent to anyone who has watched a mother cut up fruit or a sandwich for her child. You cut it in half… if the pieces aren’t quite small enough, you cut it in half again. The lunar cycle is 28 days… a little too much for humans to order their lives around… half of that is 14… still a bit too much… half again is 7. And there is the week, a perfectly natural, logical division of the lunar month. What mother wastes time cutting an apple into fifths?

Within the cycle though, no day stands out as having any quality different from another.

Even in the commandment, the word seventh is not the name of a particular day, but an ordinal number… as in the third planet, the fourth apple, or the seventh day. If you mix up a plate of apples and recount them, a different one might be the “seventh” one each time you order them.

(cont. Next post…)

 

[MarysRoses]

cont. from previous post)

The church recognizes this moral precept of setting aside regular time for rest, and also the NT precept of not neglecting to assemble ourselves together… and applies these to the first day of the week… Sunday. The day of the resurrection. The first day, which is also the Eighth… which cannot be found in the natural weekly cycle. It stands outside time. God’s rest stands outside time… Eternity. The Jewish people looked at sabbath and remembered creation .(Exodus 20:8). Christians look at Sunday and remember the NEW creation. (2 Cor 5:17) The Jewish people looked at sabbath and remembered their deliverance from slavery in Egypt. (Deut. 5:15) Christians look at Sunday and remember their deliverance from slavery to the law. (Romans 8:2) The Jewish people looked at sabbath and carefully guarded its edges, looking forward to entering into God’s eternal rest. Christians experience Sunday as a joyful feast, a weekly Easter, a celebration of their rest in Christ, who is the fulfillment of the old covenant sabbath, and in whom Christians find their sabbath, their rest. (Hebrews 4:10)

One of the old covenant shadows, was the offering of the first fruits. Jesus is referred to in the New Testament, as the first fruits of those who are raised from the dead. On what day was the offering of the first fruits made? (Leviticus 23:39) The Eighth day!

Jesus is our sabbath rest.

Sunday is the feast of the Church, a celebration of what Jesus has done for us. Sunday is not the sabbath on another day.
There is no explicit biblical command for Christians to worship on Sunday, this is not a matter of old covenant law. It fulfills the moral precept of regular rest and worship, “keeping” the commandment, as Christians should keep the commandments. As moral law. In spirit and truth, not in letter and shadows.

Adventists love to trot out statements that the Church “changed” the sabbath to Sunday. You can find them. They summarize the externals (The day of the week has changed) without delving into the deeper meanings and history. Adventists take these simple explanations, which were not meant to be in depth theological statements, and twist them to their own meanings.

In common English usage, ‘sabbath’ means any day of rest and worship. This is frequently and correctly used in the English language to designate the Sunday rest day as well as the Saturday Sabbath. The Church, did indeed change the day of worship. Christians no longer rest and worship on Saturday, they rest and worship on Sunday. So the Church did indeed “change” the sabbath… as the English word is commonly understood meaning a day of rest. If you look for specific clarification about the status of the biblical sabbath in regards to Sunday, the Church is very clear. Saturday is the biblical sabbath. Sunday is not the sabbath on another day… it is a day distinct from the Jewish sabbath. These documents and explanations are widely available. For Adventists to use these statements to bolster their own assertions without taking into account context and language… is in fact academic dishonesty.

A Catholic understands “Church” to mean the one Church, which has existed from the day of Pentecost. The authority which is referred to in the statements… is the authority Jesus gave his Apostles to teach and establish His Church. Not something that came along long after the apostles. This is indeed “the Church” and the Church did change the day of assembly. These statements were not made with an idea in mind that the “church” came about hundreds of years after Jesus. They are not statements verifying that the day of worship was changed hundreds of years after Jesus. Yet adventists will tack them on after asserting that Sunday became the day of worship under Constantine in the fourth century… as if they confirm their statements. This is another form of academic dishonesty. Catholic statements have to be understood with Catholic definitions of the terms… not Adventist definitions. This is simple fairness.

Adventists claim that Catholics keep Sunday as an act of rebellion against God’s law. Sunday came about not as an act of rebellion against God, but of recognizing the need for Christians to express their new reality and what Jesus has done for us. This was done in the freedom that Jesus paid for with his life, by the apostolic authority which Jesus gave his fledgling church, to teach in His name.

MarysRoses

 

[JRRTFAN]

What is Rome’s Challenge? I’m speaking with a Seventh Day Adventist, and I don’t have that many resources to understand some parts of their doctrine, etc. Apologetics resources would be helpful.

At the risk of being un-ecumenical (which I admit entirely) the SDA is a quasi-cult fundamentalist group (ask your SDA friend how high up the prophet Ellen G White is in their hierarchy of truth) which is very much anti-Catholic. Their whole issue with Christianity (which they do not consider Catholicism to be part of) is Sunday v Sabbath worship. They don’t require any other Isrealite pre-Christian law (circumcision for instance) for truth but that one just eats them up.

Go on Catholic.com and search for Sabbath worship or Sunday worship and you’ll get a nice tract. Also search for Ellen G White and you’ll get some hits.

 

[Filioque]

At the risk of being un-ecumenical (which I admit entirely) the SDA is a quasi-cult fundamentalist group (ask your SDA friend how high up the prophet Ellen G White is in their hierarchy of truth) which is very much anti-Catholic. Their whole issue with Christianity (which they do not consider Catholicism to be part of) is Sunday v Sabbath worship. They don’t require any other Isrealite pre-Christian law (circumcision for instance) for truth but that one just eats them up.

Go on Catholic.com and search for Sabbath worship or Sunday worship and you’ll get a nice tract. Also search for Ellen G White and you’ll get some hits.

What would be most Un-Ecumenical would be to let someone who is SDA wallow in the misrepresentation of Scripture and History that they promote. Being Ecumenical has only meant caving into error for a very short time. Prior to our modern and enlightened age, it meant the preservation of the truth on a world wide scale.

MarysRoses: Thank you for your firsthand experience and understanding of the wayward history of SDA. My exposure to them led me to the Catholic Church, but aside from the Anti-Catholic rhetoric I got when I was at Loma Linda, I never really was much interested in their theology. The paranoia about the Pope and his plots was enough to keep their religion at arms length.

 

[JRRTFAN]

What would be most Un-Ecumenical would be to let someone who is SDA wallow in the misrepresentation of Scripture and History that they promote. Being Ecumenical has only meant caving into error for a very short time. Prior to our modern and enlightened age, it meant the preservation of the truth on a world wide scale.

MarysRoses: Thank you for your firsthand experience and understanding of the wayward history of SDA. My exposure to them led me to the Catholic Church, but aside from the Anti-Catholic rhetoric I got when I was at Loma Linda, I never really was much interested in their theology. The paranoia about the Pope and his plots was enough to keep their religion at arms length.

I’ve got an old SDA book titled “Your Bible and You”. It’s ilustrated with drawings. On page 401 it has almost a full page of the clay footed giant from Nebuchadnezzer’s dream. The right foot is standing down the center of Italy and under the heel is none other than St. Peter’s Basilica. It’s a fun book to glance through where the families are all like the Cleavers (if they read their Bible).

 

[TheSeventhDay]

Here is …

John 10:35, the question was, “Can the Scriptures be broken?”

It is either “yes” or “no”.

 

[pablope]

John 10:35, the question was, “Can the Scriptures be broken?”

It is either “yes” or “no”.

what do you mean by “broken”?

 

[TheSeventhDay]

…I’m a former SDA. …

Catholics believe that Exodus 20 is an expression of God’s eternal law…the natural, moral law, just as Deuteronomy 5 is an expression of God’s eternal law. Both passages list the 10 commandments. Both are essentially the same. But… they are not identical. The sabbath commandment has a different rationale in the two different chapters, both of which are accounts of the giving of the 10 commandments:
…

This difference presents no problem to Catholics… as we believe both passages, and both listings, are expressions of God’s law… not exact transcripts.
…

I hope you will consider this answer acording to the scripture itself and what SDA teach concerning Exodus and Deuteronomy. There is no dichotomy between Exodus or Deuteronomy, which are exact transcripts:

Does Deuteronomy’s Liberation from Slavery by GOD overwrite Exodus and the Memorial of Creation, or does it rather more magnify the Sabbath? It has been said by some, “…the Commandment has not changed…but the reason for keeping it has…”, but let us see if even this admission allows for what some want [for by the very logic of that statement, the 7th Day is still the 7th Day even should a “reason” change for keeping it…]:

And God spake all these words, saying, [Exodus 20:1]

Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. [Exodus 20:8]; Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: [Exodus 20:9]; But the seventh day [is] the sabbath of the LORD thy God: [in it] thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that [is] within thy gates: [Exodus 20:10]; For [in] six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them [is], and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it. [Exoduis 20:11]

And Moses called all Israel, and said unto them, Hear, O Israel, the statutes and judgments which I speak in your ears this day, that ye may learn them, and keep, and do them. [Deuteronomy 5:1]

Keep the sabbath day to sanctify it, as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee. [Deuteronomy 5:12]; Six days thou shalt labour, and do all thy work: [Deuteronomy 5:12]; But the seventh day [is] the sabbath of the LORD thy God: [in it] thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, nor thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thine ox, nor thine ***, nor any of thy cattle, nor thy stranger that [is] within thy gates; that thy manservant and thy maidservant may rest as well as thou. [Deuteronomy 5:14]; And remember that thou wast a servant in the land of Egypt, and [that] the LORD thy God brought thee out thence through a mighty hand and by a stretched out arm: therefore the LORD thy God commanded thee to keep the sabbath day. [Deuteronomy 5:15]

In both passages, whose Day is the Sabbath? It is “The Sabbath of The LORD Thy GOD”. [not the “jews sabbath”, in fact scripture never once calls it the “jews sabbath”]

In both passages, which Day is **“the Sabbath” **of the LORD thy GOD? It is “THE 7TH DAY”. [it is always such from Beginning to End]

In Exodus, GOD directly and audibly [by HIS own voice] proclaims in Glory from Mt. Sinai to Remember The Sabbath Day and gives the reasons why, because GOD is the Creator, GOD who Blesses, GOD who Commands, GOD who makes Holy, GOD who gives work, GOD who gives Rest, GOD who determines which days are for which and that the 7th Day is the very memorial of GOD creating.

In Deuteronomy, Moses then commands again for all to Keep the 7th Day Sabbath of the LORD GOD “AS The LORD Thy GOD hath Commanded [past tense] thee”. GOD had directly commanded already in **Exodus **by HIS own voice and then gave the reasons for so doing - Creation. Deuteronomy is taking nothing away, nor replacing from the reason why GOD said to KEEP HOLY THE 7TH DAY in Exodus, it is simply giving yet one more reason, revealing another facet, to do so. Just as JESUS rested in Creation on the 7th Day, HE also rested on the 7th Day in Redemption. The two are forever linked - o glorious Sabbath Day!

In order to understand more fully the two texts, look at the word “servant” in Deuteronomy 5:15. Then also look at the previous text in verse 14, which speaks of “manservant, maidservant”. The passage says that “thy manservant and thy maidservant may rest as well as thou.” [See also Leviticus 19:33-34] They were to remember to deal justly with those who were servants for them, and they were not to forget that they themselves had also been servants. They had been servants in Egypt, and they were not allowed to Rest and observe the 7th Day Sabbath of the LORD GOD that had been made at Creation. They were made so that “their lives bitter with hard bondage.” [Exodus 1:14], and the Devil had made it thus for us until CHRIST JESUS has set us free to obey HIM:

**And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments. [Exodus 20:6]

If ye love me, keep my commandments. [John 14:15]**

There were several other instances in which GOD had them think back upon their experience in Egypt so that they would not forget and so not make the same mistakes [see Deuteronomy 24:17-18; Leviticus 11:45]. Does each of those intances replace the previous reason?:

For I [am] the LORD that bringeth you up out of the land of Egypt, to be your God: ye shall therefore be holy, for I [am] holy. [Leviticus 11:45]

Does then JESUS “finished” work at the Cross and HIS burial in the tomb overwrite or rather magnify the 7th Day even more? It is magnified!

 

[TheSeventhDay]

…

The letter of the law brings only death…

This also brings death:

For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Romans 6:23

Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. 1 John 3:4

What shall we say then? [Is] the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. Romans 7:7

To keep the Spirit of the Law, means to also then keep the letter of it, but the carnal mind cannot keep it:

Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. Romans 8:7

Yet Paul also says,

That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. Romans 8:4
**
The Ten Commandments are “spiritual”:**

Did God speak the Ten Commandments aloud to all the peoples [Exodus 20]?

Was His voice uttered from Heaven [Exodus 20:22; Hebrews 12:25]?

Is not the Finger of God also His Spirit [Luke 11:20; Matthew 12:28]?

Did God write the Ten Commandments with His Finger [Exodus 31:18; Deuteronomy 9:10]?

Are the Ten Commandments Spiritual [Romans 7:14] or Carnal [Hebrews 7:16]?

 

[TheSeventhDay]

What would be most Un-Ecumenical would be to let someone who is SDA wallow in the misrepresentation of Scripture and History that they promote. …

I am asking you to consider my sources, and see for youself… would you be willing to do so?

 

[TheSeventhDay]

…You will also note that it was not simply enough for the sheet to decend with unclean animals and for the voice from heaven to declare what was once unclean was now clean, but that a Council of the Apostles was called to discuss the subject of what was binding to the Church, and Peter’s solemn declaration, after the prophetic vision…

**
Please re-read Acts 10 and 11 and Acts 15.**

“…a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurian of the band called the Italian [band],” [Acts 10:1;p]

“[A] devout [man], and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.” [Acts 10:2]

GOD gives Cornelius a vision and sends him an Angel wherein he is told to send men to Joppa to bring Simon Peter [Acts 10:3-6] and so Cornelius obeys and tells his two servants and a soldier what has happened and sends those 3 men to Joppa [Acts 10:7-8].

The very next day while the 3 men of Cornelius were travelling towards Peter; Peter, himself, having gone upon the rooftop to pray, and he became very hungry and he would have eaten, but while those of the household prepared food for him, he has a vision from GOD [Acts 10:10, 11:5].

The vision, which was signifcantly given 3 times [Acts 10:16, 11:10] consisted of a large square sheet being let down from Heaven, wherein were all manner of “…of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air.” [Acts 10:12;p, 11:6;p] and “…there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat.” [Acts 10:13;p, 11:7;p], but also significantly Peter says, “…Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean.” [Acts 10:14;p, 11:8;p]. The voice in the vision then says, “…What God hath cleansed, [that] call not thou common.” [Acts 10:15;p, 11:9;p].

Peter comes out of the vision somewhat perplexed and “doubted in himself what this vision which he had seen should mean…” [Acts 10:17;p] and while thinking on the 3 times, **3 **men show up at the front door of the house of Simon the Tanner [Acts 10:17-18]. Peter, still thinking on the vision, was told that 3 men were seeking him, and then the HOLY SPIRIT says unto him, “Behold, three men seek thee.” [Acts 10:19;p, 11:11;p] and “Arise therefore, and get thee down, and go with them, doubting nothing: for I have sent them.” [Acts 10:20, 11:12].

[SIde Note [Food/Diet]: There are many who use this vision to declare that GOD hath cleansed the unclean animals and that they may now be eaten for food by Christians. This is a serious misapplication of this text for GOD has clearly said in Deuteronomy 14:3 [and whole chapter] and in Leviticus 20 that they were not to ever be eaten. The text in Acts 10 and 11 clearly states, as does Peter’s own admission, that he continued to follow the Commandments of GOD and he never ate anything common or unclean, as delineated by the WORD, and this being years after the ascension of JESUS CHRIST. Peter was even very hungry and still refused, even though the voice in the vision told him to eat! The HOLY SPIRIT clearly indicates that the 3 times represented the 3 men that were sent to him from Cornelius, for GOD had sent them. GOD was opening up the way to the Gentiles for Peter, for the Jews had thought the Gentiles were unclean, even by association [Acts 10:28, 11:2-3], even by touch! [hence the washing of pots and pans, etc. especially when coming from the market places; Mark 7:4,8] The scriptures clearly reveal what the vision stood for, “…God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.” [Acts 10:28;p] and even Peter exclaims, “…Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons.” [Acts 10:34] and “But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.” [Acts 10:35] and the very bottom line of the whole matter, as even witnessed by believers of the circumcision, “…Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.” [Acts 11:18]; the vision had nothing to do with food. The Unclean/Clean divisions stand firm in the WORD of GOD for it is older even than Moses [Genesis 7:2], and the whole matter of sin in this world came about because Adam disobeyed and ate something he was not supposed to eat [Genesis 2:17], do not be deceived on this issue, for GOD is not mocked [Galatians 6:7].]

Continuing onward in Acts Chapter 10, Peter lodges the visitors and then sets out with them the next day [Acts 10:21-23]. Peter and Cornelius finally get together at Cornelius’ house where a whole gathering of people [near friends and kinsman of Cornelius] were gathered to hear the WORD of GOD from Peter [Acts 10:27]. Peter goes in unto them. [Acts 10:28-29]. Cornelius relates his side of the story [Acts 10:30-33]. Peter sees that GOD has opened the way for the Gentiles to also be saved [Acts 10:28,34-35, 11:18]. Peter talks about the “word” that they were to “preach unto the people” as “commanded” [Acts 10:42] and just as Peter was finishing up the sermon, the HOLY SPIRIT is also poured out on the believing Gentiles present.

Did Peter speak of “pork” or “persons”, of “pig unclean” or “man unclean”? he who is honest ought to follow the example of Peter. Consider even more closely Acts 15 and we will notice something even more profound…

 

[TheSeventhDay]

…One of the old covenant shadows, was the offering of the first fruits. Jesus is referred to in the New Testament, as the first fruits of those who are raised from the dead. On what day was the offering of the first fruits made? (Leviticus 23:39) The Eighth day!..

No. The “first fruits” actually was to be the 16th of Nisan/Aviv, and it did not have to land on the “first [day] of the week”. The 16th, by the way was specifically “not a sabbath”.

The 15th was to be a feast sabbath and 7 days later “eighth day”], but NOT the 16th [which in the year of Christ Jesus resurrection, was “first [day] of the week”; see Greek, culmination of week is still the 7th day Sabbath in every single “first [day]” text.].

1 MONTH DAY 10, (typological Getting Lamb for Passover; Exodus 12:3 (CYCLE DAY 2) Reality CHRIST is the LAMB of GOD; John 1:29,36)

1 MONTH DAY 11, (CYCLE DAY 3)
1 MONTH DAY 12, (CYCLE DAY 4)
1 MONTH DAY 13, (CYCLE DAY 5)

1 MONTH DAY 14, (3 1/2 day/years later; typological Passover at Even; Leviticus 23:5; Reality of CHRIST’s DEATH - CYCLE DAY 6, known as the Preparation day (Mark 15:42; Luke 23:54; John 19:31), the True Temple was Destroyed (First day of the Three Prophesied by JESUS; John 2:19, etc) also see the typology of the Manna in Exodus 16:5,22)

1 MONTH DAY 15, (typological First Day of Unleavened Bread, feast sabbath; Exodus 12:16; Leviticus 23:6-7; Reality of CHRIST’s BURIAL - CYCLE DAY 7 (Luke 23:56; 7th Day SABBATH OF THE LORD GOD in the 4th COMMANDMENT), the two (feast sabbath and 7th DAY SABBATH) combined that year of JESUS and was called an “HIGH DAY” John 19:31, JESUS remained in the tomb (being the Second Day of the Three Prophesied by JESUS; John 2:19, etc); also see the typology of the Manna in Exodus 16:23) Creation and Redemption forever linked upon the 7th Day!

1 MONTH DAY 16, (typological Wave Sheaf, First Fruits Offering; Leviticus 23:10-11; Joshua 5; Reality of CHRIST’s RESURRECTION - CYCLE DAY 1 Matthew 28:1; Mark 16:1-2,9; Luke 24:1; John 20:1,19; JESUS free of the Tomb (being the THIRD DAY since these things were done; Luke 24:21; John 2:19, etc), also see the typology of the Manna in Exodus in 16:24-25, compare to Acts 13:37; 1 Corinthians 15:23…begin counting 7 Sabbaths to PENTECOST Leviticus 23:15); 1st Day)

…

Rome’s Challenge Quote:

"… In the Old Testament, reference is made one hundred and twenty-six times to the Sabbath, and all these texts conspire harmoniously in voicing the will of God commanding the seventh day to be kept, because God Himself first kept it, making it obligatory on all as “a perpetual covenant.” Nor can we imagine any one foolhardy enough to question the identity of Saturday with the Sabbath or seventh day, seeing that the people of Israel have been keeping the Saturday from the giving of the law, A.M. 2514 to A.D. 1893, a period of 3383 years. With the example of the Israelites before our eyes today, there is no historical fact better established than that referred to; viz., that the chosen people of God, the guardians of the Old Testament, the living representatives of the only divine religion hitherto, had for a period of 1490 years anterior to Christianity, preserved the weekly practice the living tradition of the correct interpretation of the special day of the week, Saturday, to be kept “holy to the Lord,” which tradition they have extended by their own practice to an additional period of 1893 years more, thus covering the full extent of the Christian dispensation. We deem it necessary to be perfectly clear on this point, for reasons that will appear more fully hereafter. The Bible — the Old Testament — confirmed by the living tradition of a weekly practice for 3383 years by the chosen people of God, teaches, then, with absolute certainty, that God had, Himself, named the day to be “kept holy to Him”,— that the day was Saturday, and that any violation of that command was punishable with death. “Keep you My Sabbath, for it is holy unto you; he that shall profane it shall be put to death; he that shall do any work in it, his soul shall perish in the midst of his people.” Ex 31 ch. 14 v.

It is impossible to realize a more severe penalty than that so solemnly uttered by God Himself in the above text, on all who violate a command referred to no less than one hundred and twenty-six times in the old law. The ten commandments of the Old Testament are formally impressed on the memory of the child of the Biblical Christian as soon as possible, but there is not one of the ten made more emphatically familiar, both in Sunday School and pulpit, than that of keeping “holy” the Sabbath day.

Having secured the absolute certainty the will of God as regards the day to be kept holy, from His Sacred Word, because He rested on that day, which day is confirmed to us by the practice of His chosen people for thousands of years, we are naturally induced to inquire when and where God changed the day for His worship; for it is patent to the world that a change of day has taken place, and inasmuch as no indication of such change can be found within the pages of the Old Testament, nor in the practice of the Jewish people who continue for nearly nineteen centuries of Christianity obeying the written command, we must look to the exponent of the Christian dispensation; viz., the New Testament, for the command of God canceling the old Sabbath, Saturday. …

… The Bible being the only teacher recognized by the Biblical Christian, the Old Testament failing to point out a change of day … "

 

[JRRTFAN]

John 10:35, the question was, “Can the Scriptures be broken?”

It is either “yes” or “no”.

Tell me about divorce and remarriage and Scripture. Tell me about “unless you eat my body and drink my blood you have no life in you.” It is either “yes” or “no”.

 

[TheSeventhDay]

… Sunday is the feast of the Church… Sunday is not the sabbath on another day.

There is no explicit biblical command for Christians to worship on Sunday, this is not a matter of old covenant law. …

… If you look for specific clarification about the status of the biblical sabbath in regards to Sunday, the Church is very clear. Saturday is the biblical sabbath. Sunday is not the sabbath on another day… it is a day distinct from the Jewish sabbath. These documents and explanations are widely available…

… This is indeed “the Church” and the Church did change the day of assembly. …

Out of the mouth of Rome, hence the whole point of the “Rome’s Challenge” article.

 

[mwok]

WOW!

I never realized there could be sooo much emphasis on a day. Didn’t Jesus work on the Sabbath and told those questioning Him that He was greater than the Sabbath?

 

[TheSeventhDay]

WOW!

I never realized there could be sooo much emphasis on a day. Didn’t Jesus work on the Sabbath and told those questioning Him that He was greater than the Sabbath?

Hi.

Jesus indeed worked, but within the parameters and expression of the Commandment. Jesus kept the 7th Day Holy.

But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work. John 5:17

But did Jesus ever sin in doing His work upon that Holy Day? No, of course not. There is a difference between that which is Holy and that which is common [profane] [Leviticus 10:10].

Scripture reveals by the Commandment itself that we are to “rest”:“sabbath” “not do any work”] upon the 7th Day:

But the seventh day [is] the sabbath of the LORD thy God: [in it] thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that [is] within thy gates: Exodus 20:10.

Remember, it was the pharisaical jews that claimed that Jesus broke the Sabbath and sinned. We know that this was a false charge. They claimed the same for His disciples. Another false charge.

The “work” that JESUS was doing upon the Sabbath was in no way a violation or transgression of the 4th Commandment. For scripture is clear that HE [JESUS] is without sin:

“…lamb shall be without blemish…” (Exodus 12:5;p)

“…the innocent blood…” (Matthew 27:4;p)

“…I have kept my Father’s commandments…” (John 15:10)

“…the obedience of one…” (Romans 5:19)

“…who knew no sin…” (2 Corinthians 5:21)

“…without sin.” (Hebrews 4:15)

“…[who is] holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners…” (Hebrews 7:26)

“Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:” (1 Peter 2:22)

“…in him is no sin.” (1 John 3:5)

…JESUS healed sickness and disease when HE came across it upon the Sabbath day [Luke 13:13] and explained that it was proper to relieve suffering upon the 7th Day, to release someone from bondage and burden [Luke 13:15-16]. Therefore Jesus continually clarifies the Commandment as it was to be, and as it was given, and clears away the pharisaical pre-talmudic oral traditions which were in fact breaking it.

JESUS, however, [being raised a carpenter under the trade of Joseph; Matthew 13:55; Mark 6:3] was not seen doing carpentry work upon the Sabbath, but HE rested from doing so “as HIS custom was”], and He rather instead went into the Synagogue [in the gathering, the convocation] or Temple [John 18:20] and taught [Mark 1:21; Mark 6:2; Luke 6:6], or read [Luke 4:16] or walked in nature [going to synagogue] [Matthew 12:1].

Paul the Apostle, himself, also a Sabbath keeping Christian “as his manner was”, recompare to JESUS in Luke 4:16], when there was no “synagogue” [building] he and Luke went out by a riverside where “prayer was wont to be made” [Acts 16:13] and “sat down” resorted there with others.

The disciples themselves [the most devout followers brave enough to bury HIM and see HIM buried] also “rested the Sabbath day according to the Commandment” [Luke 23:56].

The actual quote is that Jesus is “Lord of the Sabbath”, HE is the true living WORD, the true Halakah, hence the True “LORD’s Day”, see also Isaiah 58:13, Exodus 20:8-11; Genesis 2:2-3; Mark 2:27; Revelation 1:10; etc.

 

[mwok]

So is Worship considered work?

 

[JRRTFAN]

what do you mean by “broken”?

What he means is he comes from a tradition which doesn’t believe that Jesus fulfilled the law and that some of the Hebraic rules are still in force (selectively, for instance circumcision on the 8th day is kaput but sabbtah worship is not, for some bizarre reason).

I argued with an SDA physician out in California that the calendar from Judaic, pre-Christian times, had changed numerous times over the years to the extent that what was Saturday in 1200 B.C. was not Saturday now and he sent me a scan of a letter from a Naval Observatory in England dated in 1936 or some such saying that the days were never changed. It was signed by a Naval British commander so it must be true.

The marriage covenant, however, is one that can be broken by divorce and remarriage by the SDA adherent. A direct Scriptural statement “what God has joined together…” doesn’t really mean that, it means something else.

Just like John 6 means something else, the SDA adherent would be with the disciples who turned away at the teaching.

The SDA is a creation of the 19th century, it doesn’t hold to historic Christianity as practiced in the Catholic and Orthodox communions. They will always talk about “Roman” Catholicism as a pejorative. They do not realize that there are 22 types of Catholicism all in communion with the Holy See. It’s an American phenomenon.

 

[pablope]

What he means is he comes from a tradition which doesn’t believe that Jesus fulfilled the law and that some of the Hebraic rules are still in force (selectively, for instance circumcision on the 8th day is kaput but sabbtah worship is not, for some bizarre reason).

Thanks for the explanation, JRRT…i think me and another poster have asked him to prove his pedigree first by citing the verse and chapter that states the Bible is the sole rule of faith…and instead our guest came out with this verse from John 10:35.

From what you explained, it looks like the SDA are the ones “breaking” the Scripture…

I argued with an SDA physician out in California that the calendar from Judaic, pre-Christian times, had changed numerous times over the years to the extent that what was Saturday in 1200 B.C. was not Saturday now and he sent me a scan of a letter from a Naval Observatory in England dated in 1936 or some such saying that the days were never changed. It was signed by a Naval British commander so it must be true.