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Cat
Guest
All this mess because of fermented grain.
Is it really that good? Really?
Is it really that good? Really?
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EasterJoy
Guest
Those who need to ask themselves that aren’t here asking for advice, unfortunately.
I would say that getting experience in confronting roommates directly when they lie to you and drawing boundaries that let them know you have no tolerance whatsoever for being lied to is a “college life skill.”
Among those who will lie are the true sociopaths. Many of them are fun, likable, and extraordinarily good at making excuses and (mark this!) eliciting pity.
These are quotes from her that I would make a gold standard when moving away to college, in the intense environment where peers you barely know will move in to become your “friends,” making demand accordingly:
*“The first rule involves the bitter pill of accepting that some people literally have no conscience.”
“Question your tendency to pity too easily. Respect should be reserved for the kind and morally courageous. It should be reserved for innocent people who are in genuine pain or who have fallen on misfortune.”
“Make the Rule of Threes your personal policy. One lie, one broken promise, or a single neglected responsibility may be a misunderstanding instead. Two may involve a serious mistake. But three lies says you’re dealing with a liar, and deceit is the linchpin of conscienceless behavior. Cut your losses and get out as soon as you can. Leaving, though it may be hard, will be easier now than later, and less costly.Leaving though it may be hard, will be easier now than later, and less costly. Do not give your money, your work, your secrets, or your affection to a three timer. Your valuable gifts will be wasted.”
“Do not try to redeem the unredeemable. Second chances are for people who possess conscience. If you are dealing with a person who has no conscience, know how to swallow hard and cut your losses.”
“Never agree, out of pit or for any other reason, to help a sociopath conceal his or her true character. Other people deserve to warned more than sociopaths deserve to have you keep their secrets.”*
I would add this: Never forget that addiction ruins characters. A person who has integrity when they are clean and sober will lie as if they have no conscience when they are using the substance that enslaves them. The only way for the character of an alcoholic or other addict to be redeemed is for that person to decide to renounce whatever it is that enslaves them. Anything you do that enables them to put off the day when they have to do that is one more day that the person will find slavery easier than the battle of getting beyond it. The “do not try to redeem the unredeemable” rule applies to people who have lost their conscience to addiction just as surely as it applies to people who are without a conscience for some other reason.
There is no one who can do more to ruin your life than someone without a conscience. You cannot beat them at their game and you can easily underestimate their capacity for spite. They will damage themselves three times over to score one crippling stroke against someone they perceive as an enemy.
If you think you are dealing with this kind of person, a person who is a “user,” a person who manipulates other people in order to get through life, a person who has a spiteful streak, I’d absolutely agree with those who say, “Let it go until you can quietly slip off of this person’s life and off of their radar.” If you think you may be dealing with a dangerous liar, I’d go along with those who say that it is easier to stay out of battles with them, avoid entanglements of every kind but quietly, and wait for your chance to put as much distance between you as possible.
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EasterJoy
Guest
Here is the problem: About 4-5% of the population can lie without a qualm, and could be classified as a sociopath. (Yes, it is that high!) Unfortunately, a majority of us cannot get through a day without lying. Most of us will cheat a little, given the chance and the belief that we won’t get caught or won’t face consequences. This is what the psychologists say.
If your friends lie once in awhile, it is important to teach them that you do not lie and you do not cope with those who do. You make amends when you fail to keep a promise, and you expect the same from others. You expect to face consequences when you don’t abide by the rules, and you don’t have in trouble enforcing your rules on others. Yes, you make mistakes, but you expect to have to pay some price for them and you expect to be held to honestly make an effort to avoid repeating them.
If your friends make an effort to make amends when they fail you, OK. They are probably normal people who are weak, as we are all from time to time. If you see a habit of lying and a habit of not wanting to face any real consequences,* and especially if someone tries to get you to pity them for being caught in their offenses*, do not place that person in any position of trust. Stay off their radar, and quietly stay clear of them.
If your friends lie once in awhile, it is important to teach them that you do not lie and you do not cope with those who do. You make amends when you fail to keep a promise, and you expect the same from others. You expect to face consequences when you don’t abide by the rules, and you don’t have in trouble enforcing your rules on others. Yes, you make mistakes, but you expect to have to pay some price for them and you expect to be held to honestly make an effort to avoid repeating them.
If your friends make an effort to make amends when they fail you, OK. They are probably normal people who are weak, as we are all from time to time. If you see a habit of lying and a habit of not wanting to face any real consequences,* and especially if someone tries to get you to pity them for being caught in their offenses*, do not place that person in any position of trust. Stay off their radar, and quietly stay clear of them.
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HouseArrest
Guest
I think he plans to get rid of the beer. In the first paragraph, he says he likes his roommates.
But then again, maybe I am reading it wrong.
But then again, maybe I am reading it wrong.
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DarkLight
Guest
Not if it’s the kind that can be mistaken for soda it isn’t. Good beer doesn’t come in cans.
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EasterJoy
Guest
Underage drinkers do not tend to violate the law because they are connoisseurs.
That these roommates are underage drinkers does not concern me so much, because they aren’t trying to pressure the OP to join them. It is a moral fault, yes, but foolish sins are different than cold-blooded sins. (Permitting yourself to drink and drive: I’d be willing to consider that cold-blooded sin, because it so blithely endangers others for selfish reasons.)
Having a roommate who would look me in the eye and lie to my face? That would bother me. It would bother me a lot, and I would say so. That is not to say that “decent” people aren’t capable of it–it is a Rule of Threes, not One Strike and You’re Out–but that if this incident does not bring forth a very embarrassed apology, I’d count that as a very big red flag.
Accomplished liars are trouble. Keep them far from anything that belongs to you. That is the guy you can let be your entertainer, but not someone you ever put in a real position of trust.
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Cat
Guest
The OP needs to consider carefully the rest of his life and how it could be ruined by these kind of people.Underage drinkers do not tend to violate the law because they are connoisseurs.
That these roommates are underage drinkers does not concern me so much, because they aren’t trying to pressure the OP to join them. It is a moral fault, yes, but foolish sins are different than cold-blooded sins. (Permitting yourself to drink and drive: I’d be willing to consider that cold-blooded sin, because it so blithely endangers others for selfish reasons.)
Having a roommate who would look me in the eye and lie to my face? That would bother me. It would bother me a lot, and I would say so. That is not to say that “decent” people aren’t capable of it–it is a Rule of Threes, not One Strike and You’re Out–but that if this incident does not bring forth a very embarrassed apology, I’d count that as a very big red flag.
Accomplished liars are trouble. Keep them far from anything that belongs to you. That is the guy you can let be your entertainer, but not someone you ever put in a real position of trust.
I stand by my initial advice–move out.
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Cat
Guest
As I said in my post, many college students were raised in families where alcohol was used in moderation and in a healthy way.
It doesn’t matter. In the United States, college seems to be the cue for people to act like utter fools when it comes to alcohol. The very fact that so many college students will go to great lengths to break the law (it is the law whether they like it or not) to obtain and consume great quantities of alcohol is evidence that parental teaching about alcohol abuse means nothing.
Many parents in the United States have buried their college-aged children who died of alcohol-related causes (alcohol overdose and various accidents related to being drunk). These parents often state through tears, “We taught him/her about wise use of alcohol and modeled moderate alcohol use in our family. We don’t understand how this could possibly happen.”
Peer pressure probably plays a large role in this. You would think Christian kids would be less likely to cave to peer pressure, but that’s a sad joke. They’re often the first to fall because their Christianity isn’t really theirs, it’s their parents that they’ve been imitating all their life. When they get to college, they stop imitating their parents and start trying to be their true selves.
I hope this has helped you to understand the college drinking scene in the U.S. It’s pretty grim. There is really nothing good about it.
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Cat
Guest
Anyone watch the evening news tonight?
R.I.P Nolan Burch. West Virginia University.
And the same for all the other students who were listed on the broadcast that I was watching. All died due to alcohol abuse.
The “expert” stated that “a change of culture” is needed on university campuses. That would be funny if it wasn’t so terribly sad. It will never, ever happen. Kids keep dying and nothing changes about alcohol use on campus.
They should just legalize it for all ages in all venues (including workplaces and classrooms). Perhaps getting rid of the “forbidden thrill” aspect of alcohol would stop at least a few people from killing themselves.
Once again, my advice to the OP–move out. If your roommates have to choose between you and alcohol, they will choose alcohol.
R.I.P Nolan Burch. West Virginia University.
And the same for all the other students who were listed on the broadcast that I was watching. All died due to alcohol abuse.
The “expert” stated that “a change of culture” is needed on university campuses. That would be funny if it wasn’t so terribly sad. It will never, ever happen. Kids keep dying and nothing changes about alcohol use on campus.
They should just legalize it for all ages in all venues (including workplaces and classrooms). Perhaps getting rid of the “forbidden thrill” aspect of alcohol would stop at least a few people from killing themselves.
Once again, my advice to the OP–move out. If your roommates have to choose between you and alcohol, they will choose alcohol.
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EasterJoy
Guest
“These people” did lie to him, but one of them did it once. If the OP points out that they’ve blown it with this particular trust issue, and they say, “OK. We get that. We won’t put anything in your refrigerator without running it past you, and yeah, we wouldn’t let Bob in our refrigerator if he lied to us, either. We get that you are willing to put up with our alcohol if we kept it out of your space. Yeah, OK,” and then they are as good as their word, I’d say, “Lesson learned. OK.”
People blow it from time to time. You are going to blow it from time to time. When you run across people who get that bad decisions have natural consequences and they value you as someone who does what he says he’ll do and takes his consequences when he comes up short, too, then don’t ditch them for one stupid mistake. Give them their consequences, but wait and see if they don’t rise to your expectations, too. Sometimes, they do.
I’d be very wary of the guy who looked me right in the eye and lied to me, particularly if he doesn’t come back before I know he lied and say, “You know, I have to confess, I wasn’t honest with you. It was really lousy, I’m sorry, I’m confessing because I feel like a jerk, you deserve better, but I won’t let it happen again.” Even him, though–if he makes amends and works to repair his reputation with you, I’d consider giving him a chance.
Alcohol and drugs and the temptation to do clandestine things to get them and try them–these lead to some instances of character self-destruction. If the instances don’t become a habit, I’d chalk it up to someone underestimating how strong temptation can be. Don’t give them a pass, but give them a chance to say, “hey, I need to do better” and to try to amend themselves.
Our Lord told St Peter to forgive “seventy times seven times.” He was referring to the brother who is weak and falls repeatedly but is not manipulative or making excuses for himself. How do I know this? Because of how Our Lord also describes how to treat the brother who has offended against you. You go to him privately, if he doesn’t repent you bring in some witnesses, if witnesses don’t work, you bring in the Church, and if that doesn’t work you “treat him as if he were a Gentile or a tax collector.” You love him, you refrain from judging whether he’s headed to Heaven or Hell or what God must think of him, but you don’t keep him in a position of trust if he does not repent or see something wrong with how he has been treating you. That is what I mean.
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EasterJoy
Guest
The biology of a young person’s brain argues against this solution. Young people are not neurologically equipped to make good decisions about self-indulging with stuff that gives their brain a dopamine hit and reduces social inhibitions at an age when they can suffer from almost crippling social anxiety. They do need to be protected from themselves, to the degree that can be done.
Besides, I can tell you that the culture in many high schools has changed since the inception of Mothers Against Drunk Driving in 1980. Yes, people are still being killed by drunk drivers, but a lot less people are being killed by drunk drivers. The “change of culture” is helping, even if it is not eradicating the problem.
There is no way that alcohol ought to be permitted in classrooms or workplaces. Talk about giving people plenty of rope to hang themselves with! The “forbidden” part helps keep classrooms and workplaces from descending into the utter chaos that would result if drunkenness did not have to be “hidden from view.” The sober deserve that much!
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Cat
Guest
Well, I most certainly agree with you, except on one point–I don’t think it’s just young people who aren’t mature enough to make good decisions about alcohol. Many drunk driving accidents are caused by people long out of college. It’s an ageless crime.
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EasterJoy
Guest
The rate of binge drinking and drunken driving is the highest among 21-25 year olds. Their rate of drunken driving is more than twice the overall rate for all drivers. If the drinking age were lowered, the rates of binge drinking and drunk driving would undoubtedly rise accordingly in 16-20 year old drivers.
Still, this quote from the 2010 National Survey on Drug Use and Health astonishes me:
- In 2010, an estimated 11.4 percent of persons aged 12 or older drove under the influence of alcohol at least once in the past year. This percentage had dropped since 2002, when it was 14.2 percent. The rate of driving under the influence of alcohol was highest among persons aged 21 to 25 (23.4 percent)*
archive.samhsa.gov/data/NSDUH/2k10NSDUH/2k10Results.htm
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Cat
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That’s why nothing really gets done about drunk driving–because so many people do it, and I’m not talking about trashy people. I work in a hospital lab with college-educated “professionals,” and they talk about how lucky they were that a cop didn’t stop them because “I had way too much to drink and wasn’t even sure I would make it home.”
It’s unbelievable.
I would be willing to bet that most lawyers and most judges have driven drunk or at least under the influence.
It’s kind of hard for drinkers to get home if they don’t drive. Most cities have terrible public transportation. Also, it’s not part of our culture in most cities for people to use public transportation–only in the big cities do people take public transportation.
Also, it’s difficult to find people who are willing to be the “designated driver” and sip Cokes or water while everyone else is “having a good time.” If you are not drinking and everyone else is, you just can’t get as jolly as everyone else is. It’s awkward. And if people aren’t visibly drunk, they insist that they don’t need a driver, and so you feel like you wasted your evening since they won’t let you drive them home. If they are visibly drunk, it is not easy to get them in the car and drive them home–they’re obnoxious and impulsive.
And even though we are continually told that relatively small amounts of alcohol will be enough to register over the legal limit, most people don’t believe it. They don’t “feel drunk,” so they assume that they are OK to drive.
I simply don’t understand why anyone would take a chance with drinking and driving. To me, it’s like standing on the edge of the roof of a skyscraper. The difference is, if you fall off the skyscraper, you’re the only one who gets killed. With driving under the influence, other innocent people get hurt or killed.
Sorry to take this OT–the sad story about the West Virginia college student is heavy on my mind. I hope the OP will make wise decisions.
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EasterJoy
Guest
I know people in emergency medicine and EMS who drink too much, and they arrange to have a non-drinker along to drive them when that is a possibility. When it is not a possibility, then they don’t get to drink until they reach their evening’s destination. The ones who are on call don’t get to drink even then. It is more than just having their jobs in jeopardy. I think they see the effects of impaired driving first-hand enough to realize what is at stake. As you point out, the person you kill could be in grade school or someone’s grandparent or a newlywed who hasn’t had a drop.
You’re right: If you’re talking about moderate consumption that is still too much for driving, that is one thing, but it takes a good sport of a non-drinker to spend the evening with a group that is trying to tie one on. Over-drinkers get obnoxious, they pick stupid fights, they throw up without warning, they say and do offensive things they can’t take back, and they really are not as funny as they and the other drunks think they are. The non-drinker can feel very left out and sometimes feels a sober sense of embarrassment to be with the group of drinkers–that is, they feel those embarrassed feelings that the drunks don’t feel until they sober up, if they remember how they were acting at all!
Speaking of–driving while texting or while over-tired or letting yourself get too distracted with fiddling with your music or food or whatever is also way too likely to get someone killed. It only takes a few seconds of inattention to cause a serious crash. This is something for non-drinkers to take into account when they drive: that is, just being sober isn’t enough.
The OP is very wise to run his social life without alcohol. It can be a suitable addition, for those of age who have self-control, and a very enjoyable one. There is a reason that Biblical feasts and even the Mass include the fruit of the vine in fermented form. For those without self-control, it is a recipe for disaster. What about someone who “needs” alcohol in order to have a good time? Stay far away, because that is a life headed for a train wreck! I think all of us who are older have seen it again and again.
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