Root of Catholic sexual morality

[jomoco]

Yeah, well, if you don’t believe in the Trinity, how can you call yourself a Christian? Men and women don’t combine to make the Holy Spirit! That’s blasphemy.

Oh but I do believe in the holy trinity. It consists of man+ woman=the holy ghost.

It may not be the trinity of your oh so fallible church of flawed men’s teachings.

Yet it does have very valid scriptural roots when equated to the Tree of Life.

Funny how so many of you read the bible and fail to comprehend that God has hidden truths and mysteries in almost everyone of the books that comprise it, awaiting resolution.

jomoco

 

[LeafByNiggle]

Apparently you believe that all is hunky dorry in the world and church at present?

I believe the exact opposite, The world is rife with evil. Our churches are packed with hypocrites doing the exact opposite of what Jesus taught.

I’m convinced that the sword of Christ is the truth, that it will cut through the hypocrisy of man’s evil world of unending lies and deception like a hot knife through butter. All this world’s woes are centered on man’s inability to definitively determine truth from lies.

Equate Christ to truth determined in a tangible manner that all can see, and the lies comprising our present world will become self evident.

It’s the knowledge of God that will save us from ourselves in my opinion. Not some heavenly apparition floating down out of the sky like superman come to save the day.

It’s the tangible world of science becoming reconciled to the Knowledge of God that exists inside the bodies of every man and woman on this planet on which the kingdom of heaven on earth will be built.

Know ye not that the body is the temple of the Lord?

Though ye have eyes ye cannot see!

Though ye have ears ye cannot hear!

Man’s world of deception, lies and hypocrisy is about to end, cut to pieces by knowledge of God’s sword of truth revealed in a tangible manner that is indisputable in it’s glory to God alone.

Just my humble opinion of course.

jomoco

Excuse me, jomoco, but your opinion is far from humble. You say that Knowledge of God will save us. And you label yourself a Christian. So exactly where do you suppose you got the knowledge of Christ in order to call yourself a Christian? Was that specific knowledge implanted in your mind from birth? Or do you believe that God gives private revelations about Jesus to each and every one of us directly? Or did you come to call yourself Christian because you learned about Christ from a church? I’m betting it was the later. So even in your case, your knowledge came to you, passed on from generation to generation, through the Church, founded by the apostles, established by Jesus. So don’t write off the Church so quickly. This is not to say that everything is “hunky dorry”, as you say, in the Church. The Church is a human institution run by flawed human beings. So there are bound to be problems that need addressing. But we also have the guidance of the Holy Spirit (as we are reminded of today on Penticost). So in spite of our flaws as a Church, the work of God in spreading the good news is still continuing through that same flawed Church.

One of the jobs of that flawed, but still divinely guided, Church is the teaching of God’s laws so that we might live in God’s love. And the principles alluded to by John21652 that seemed to upset you so much are part of that teaching. You seem to have some issue with that teaching, but rather than question the specific teaching itself, you are merely throwing doubt on the motivations and origins of all such teachings. You do this by saying things like “Love is harder to measure than procreation, and that seems to be the basis of Catholic sexual morality”. But that kind of attack goes against the whole world of Catholic and protestant churches at once. And then you would have no basis to call yourself Christian in your profile, because if you had your way, there would be no more churches and no more Christians.

So rather than bad-mouth the whole Church, why don’t you focus more narrowly on the specific items in Catholic sexual morality that you find troubling, and don’t try to second guess the motivations of Church.

 

[jomoco]

Excuse me, jomoco, but your opinion is far from humble. You say that Knowledge of God will save us. And you label yourself a Christian. So exactly where do you suppose you got the knowledge of Christ in order to call yourself a Christian? Was that specific knowledge implanted in your mind from birth?

[Half of the answer was indeed implanted in my body at my conception. The other half implanted in the bodies of women at their conceptions. Knowledge of this came to me from reading the bible. Genesis 3:22 specifically.]

Or do you believe that God gives private revelations about Jesus to each and every one of us directly? Or did you come to call yourself Christian because you learned about Christ from a church? I’m betting it was the later. So even in your case, your knowledge came to you, passed on from generation to generation, through the Church, founded by the apostles, established by Jesus. So don’t write off the Church so quickly. This is not to say that everything is “hunky dorry”, as you say, in the Church. The Church is a human institution run by flawed human beings. So there are bound to be problems that need addressing. But we also have the guidance of the Holy Spirit (as we are reminded of today on Penticost). So in spite of our flaws as a Church, the work of God in spreading the good news is still continuing through that same flawed Church.

One of the jobs of that flawed, but still divinely guided, Church is the teaching of God’s laws so that we might live in God’s love. And the principles alluded to by John21652 that seemed to upset you so much are part of that teaching. You seem to have some issue with that teaching, but rather than question the specific teaching itself, you are merely throwing doubt on the motivations and origins of all such teachings. You do this by saying things like “Love is harder to measure than procreation, and that seems to be the basis of Catholic sexual morality”. But that kind of attack goes against the whole world of Catholic and protestant churches at once. And then you would have no basis to call yourself Christian in your profile, because if you had your way, there would be no more churches and no more Christians.

[Those are not my words, you’re mistaken in attributing them to me. That said, I don’t believe your churches are divinely guided any more, to me that’s self evident.]

So rather than bad-mouth the whole Church, why don’t you focus more narrowly on the specific items in Catholic sexual morality that you find troubling, and don’t try to second guess the motivations of Church.

My beef with the church is it’s domination by flawed men in it’s leadership, that are anything but Christ-like, and it’s exclusion of women from any leadership roles in the church.

Neither Christ or any of his Apostles ever walked around draped in gold and fine raiment behind locked doors barricaded in a fortress of materialistic wealth. In fact they did the exact opposite though it cost each of them their very lives to prove their faith and devout belief in a loving caring God.

jomoco

 

[IrishRush]

Oh, before I forget, please explain to me how women got a raw deal when men stood guard outside the caves in times long gone. Or worked themselves into an early grave when manual labour was all the rage? And how was it a bad deal when men always said “women and children first”?

May I say, as a woman, I personally LIKE this “raw deal.”
Just trying to lighten this up a little…

 

[jomoco]

May I say, as a woman, I personally LIKE this “raw deal.”
Just trying to lighten this up a little…

Hi IrishRush,

While I appreciate your sentiment, the title of this thread drew me like a magnet in that it’s my opinion that it is indeed the very roots of Catholic sexual morality that have been primarily responsible for it’s woes stemming from priests not being allowed to marry and procreate. This mistake and misreading of human nature is the primary cause of the pedophilia that has rocked the church as never before both here in the US and abroad.

I highly commend Pope Benedict for issuing his profound and heartfelt apology to the many victims and millions of parishoners throughout the world, but would like to concentrate on his promise to take proactive steps to do something to remedy the problem to ensure it never happens again.

It’s my understanding that the Apostle Peter himself had a mother in law, indicating that he was atleast at one time married at some point. And while I appreciate that the roots of the reason that Catholic Priests aren’t allowed to marry is to emulate Christ Himself, I believe it is now glaringly self evident that this is a bridge too far for most mortal men including Catholic priests. And further that there is no Biblical Scripture that I can find that dictates priests be celibate. Though there is Scripture limiting them to just one wife.

This begs the question that if His Holiness is serious about solving this extremely serious flaw in the Church to ensure that no further transgressionary sins occur, why not follow Biblical Scripture and allow Catholic priests to marry and procreate as God Himself exhorted us to do?

Respectfully,

jomoco

 

[Mamanurse]

Hi IrishRush,

While I appreciate your sentiment, the title of this thread drew me like a magnet in that it’s my opinion that it is indeed the very roots of Catholic sexual morality that have been primarily responsible for it’s woes stemming from priests not being allowed to marry and procreate. This mistake and misreading of human nature is the primary cause of the pedophilia that has rocked the church as never before both here in the US and abroad.

I highly commend Pope Benedict for issuing his profound and heartfelt apology to the many victims and millions of parishoners throughout the world, but would like to concentrate on his promise to take proactive steps to do something to remedy the problem to ensure it never happens again.

It’s my understanding that the Apostle Peter himself had a mother in law, indicating that he was atleast at one time married at some point. And while I appreciate that the roots of the reason that Catholic Priests aren’t allowed to marry is to emulate Christ Himself, I believe it is now glaringly self evident that this is a bridge too far for most mortal men including Catholic priests. And further that there is no Biblical Scripture that I can find that dictates priests be celibate. Though there is Scripture limiting them to just one wife.

This begs the question that if His Holiness is serious about solving this extremely serious flaw in the Church to ensure that no further transgressionary sins occur, why not follow Biblical Scripture and allow Catholic priests to marry and procreate as God Himself exhorted us to do?

Respectfully,

jomoco

I’m sorry, I just don’t see how allowing priests to marry are going to in any way effect the percentage of pedophilia. Isn’t the whole thing about pedophilia an attraction to children? How is allowing priests to marry women going to diminish that tendency in any way? Married men have also committed pedophilia; what do you say about that?

Beyond that fact, marriage in itself is hard enough. I cannot imagine being married to a priest! My priest is so busy with all of his duties; I think a wife and family would feel neglected. Thank God the CC hasn’t changed her views on this matter.

And another thing you forget, the CC does not base its teaches* solely* on the Bible.

 

[jomoco]

I’m sorry, I just don’t see how allowing priests to marry are going to in any way effect the percentage of pedophilia. Isn’t the whole thing about pedophilia an attraction to children? How is allowing priests to marry women going to diminish that tendency in any way? Married men have also committed pedophilia; what do you say about that?

Beyond that fact, marriage in itself is hard enough. I cannot imagine being married to a priest! My priest is so busy with all of his duties; I think a wife and family would feel neglected. Thank God the CC hasn’t changed her views on this matter.

And another thing you forget, the CC does not base its teaches* solely* on the Bible.

It’s quite simple really. The vast majority, some 80 plus percent of the priestly abuse cases were homosexual in nature, targeted toward young male teens. Marriage and children would be an effective means of keeping homosexual priests out of the church to a very large degree, in my opinion.

jomoco

 

[michelleds]

It’s quite simple really. . . . . Marriage and children would be an effective means of keeping homosexual priests out of the church to a very large degree, in my opinion.

jomoco

That’s not even a rational statement.

 

[PerfectTiming]

It’s quite simple really. The vast majority, some 80 plus percent of the priestly abuse cases were homosexual in nature, targeted toward young male teens. Marriage and children would be an effective means of keeping homosexual priests out of the church to a very large degree, in my opinion.

jomoco

So you’re saying a homosexual should just marry for the sakes of it? No, that is unfair to the individual’s wife - they could never give them 100% because it would not be a true union of love.

 

[jomoco]

So you’re saying a homosexual should just marry for the sakes of it? No, that is unfair to the individual’s wife - they could never give them 100% because it would not be a true union of love.

Are you implying that the Catholic church should allow homosexual priests into its clergy?

jomoco

 

[PerfectTiming]

Are you implying that the Catholic church should allow homosexual priests into its clergy?

jomoco

Don’t put words into my mouth, that’s not what I said at all. Though I find it interesting that you ignore my argument completely and go instead for a random accusation that has nothing to do with what I said.

 

[Edward_H]

This thread has turned odd.

It’s similar to saying the answer to infidelity is open marriages.

And I reject the insinuation above that the problem with abuse is common and widespread.

Someone needs to stop being spoon fed by the Boston Globe/ Main stream media.

 

[Mamanurse]

It’s quite simple really. The vast majority, some 80 plus percent of the priestly abuse cases were homosexual in nature, targeted toward young male teens. Marriage and children would be an effective means of keeping homosexual priests out of the church to a very large degree, in my opinion.

jomoco

Wouldn’t those who have homosexual and pedophilia tendencies just abuse their own offspring then? And why would a man who has homosexual tendencies not seek out other means of sexual pleasure just because he is married? If he has homosexual tendencies he will not be satiated by a woman. You make a very weak argument.

 

[jomoco]

Don’t put words into my mouth, that’s not what I said at all. Though I find it interesting that you ignore my argument completely and go instead for a random accusation that has nothing to do with what I said.

I suggested that allowing Catholic priests to marry and have children would be an effective means of assuring that no more homosexual priests slip through the ranks of the clergy.

Re-read the posts and you will discover any confusion or misreading of my posts are yours my friend.

jomoco

 

[Edward_H]

I suggested that allowing Catholic priests to marry and have children would be an effective means of assuring that no more homosexual priests slip through the ranks of the clergy.

Re-read the posts and you will discover any confusion or misreading of my posts are yours my friend.

jomoco

Please tell me how this would work. So we have priests that “go homosexual” simply because they can’t marry?

Is that what you’re asserting?

 

[jomoco]

Please tell me how this would work. So we have priests that “go homosexual” simply because they can’t marry?

Is that what you’re asserting?

My knowledge of homosexuals indicates that they don’t “go homosexual,” but rather that they are born that way. The priest that’s married with children is highly unlikely to be a homosexual. It’s really that simple.

The single celibate priesthoods of the Catholic churches and others effectively acts as a magnet for homosexuals, and has for centuries in my opinion.

Can any of you knowledgeable Catholics give me any OT or NT Scripture that dictates that Catholic priests be single and celibate please?

jomoco

 

[Edward_H]

My knowledge of homosexuals indicates that they don’t “go homosexual,” but rather that they are born that way. The priest that’s married with children is highly unlikely to be a homosexual. It’s really that simple.

The single celibate priesthoods of the Catholic churches and others effectively acts as a magnet for homosexuals, and has for centuries in my opinion.

Can any of you knowledgeable Catholics give me any OT or NT Scripture that dictates that Catholic priests be single and celibate please?

jomoco

There’s a bunch…Paul speaks about if possible don’t marry…etc. etc.

But remember the Catholic Church can’t be inconsistent with the OT/NT, but where there’s no specifics, the Church Tradition often speaks.

Total self-donation is the definition of true love. Love on the Cross…a whole life given exclusively to the Body of Christ. That’s what Jesus did…and that’s what we ask our priests to do…to give their whole life, all their fruit, to the Church. It can be done and has been done, and is now being done.

 

[jomoco]

There’s a bunch…Paul speaks about if possible don’t marry…etc. etc.

But remember the Catholic Church can’t be inconsistent with the OT/NT, but where there’s no specifics, the Church Tradition often speaks.

Total self-donation is the definition of true love. Love on the Cross…a whole life given exclusively to the Body of Christ. That’s what Jesus did…and that’s what we ask our priests to do…to give their whole life, all their fruit, to the Church. It can be done and has been done, and is now being done.

At what price to young Catholic parishoners, and to the Church itself?

jomoco

 

[John21652]

Apparently you believe that all is hunky dorry in the world and church at present?

I believe the exact opposite, The world is rife with evil. Our churches are packed with hypocrites doing the exact opposite of what Jesus taught.

I’m convinced that the sword of Christ is the truth, that it will cut through the hypocrisy of man’s evil world of unending lies and deception like a hot knife through butter. All this world’s woes are centered on man’s inability to definitively determine truth from lies.

Equate Christ to truth determined in a tangible manner that all can see, and the lies comprising our present world will become self evident.

It’s the knowledge of God that will save us from ourselves in my opinion. Not some heavenly apparition floating down out of the sky like superman come to save the day.

It’s the tangible world of science becoming reconciled to the Knowledge of God that exists inside the bodies of every man and woman on this planet on which the kingdom of heaven on earth will be built.

I gave a number of criticisms to your post and you have not addressed them. Instead you sidestep every single issue raised initially by you and criticised by others and then launch into a rant based on a gross assumption. Just to direct you specifically to where your thinking takes a quantum leap in logic, you begin by saying “Apparently you believe…”. Wow, that’s a disengenuous way of avoiding the very issues you raised.

I, and others, are still waiting for an explanation about what you mean by the ‘relegation’ of women. I, for one, would like to know how you can reconcile the inherent illogicality in what you wrote.

Know ye not that the body is the temple of the Lord?

Obviously you don’t carefully read what others post. My original post, post #10 was on this very point. I quoted St. Paul on this very point.

Though ye have eyes ye cannot see!

Though ye have ears ye cannot hear!

Man’s world of deception, lies and hypocrisy is about to end, cut to pieces by knowledge of God’s sword of truth revealed in a tangible manner that is indisputable in it’s glory to God alone.

Just my humble opinion of course.

jomoco

Carping piffle. The world is full of good people, unheralded, doing good things and living good lives. Not all are on the road to perdition. Perhaps it is you who do not have the eyes to see and the ears to hear?!

 

[PerfectTiming]

I suggested that allowing Catholic priests to marry and have children would be an effective means of assuring that no more homosexual priests slip through the ranks of the clergy.

Re-read the posts and you will discover any confusion or misreading of my posts are yours my friend.

jomoco

That would not stop homosexuals becoming priests. How do you think it would do that?