Rosary at Mass?

[Russ_of_Tokyo]

This morning the lady next to me got out her rosary beads at the beginning of Mass but did not do anything with them until she went up for communion. Then, she had the beads wrapped around her wrist. Afterwards she put them back in her purse. I thought that was interesting. Come to think of it, I have seen other people in line with the beads wrapped around their hands or wrists in the past. What is the reason for that custom?

 

[O_Moriah]

Again, for those who posted saying that she should not be praying her Rosary at Mass, I’d refer them back to Pope Pius XII’s quote above where he specifically says such a practice is fine.

People should not place their personal opinions above the Popes.

Do you think Pius XII was referring to the Novus Ordo which abrogated all previous practices for those who use the Novus Order as per Paul VI, who was also a Pope?

I must disagree with two posters who have boldly and haphazardly stated that praying the Rosary during Mass is NOT a form of active participation. This is ‘active participation’ of the highest degree.

Such noble practices should still be promoted and encourage.

Your reference to ‘haphazardly’ is out of line. Those who have said that praying the rosary during Mass shouldn’t be happening have been providing sound reasoning as well as quoting the relevant documents. That is not haphazard.

As pnewton mentioned above, the rosary is mainly a private devotion. There is a wall between liturgy, as an act of worship (latria/adoratio) and devotion of the saints which is devotional (dulia/hyperdulia). Because of that wall, the Hail Mary is not part of the Mass (and I know a few priests that attempted to make it part of the Mass until they got a call from the bishop’s Office of Worship). Because of that wall, devotions such as a St. Jude Novena may not be blended into or be attached to a Mass (at least, it’s not supposed to, your local customs notwithstanding). Compare that to the Liturgy of the Hours, which can be blended into a Mass (rarely done… if even the new GIRM allows it… need to look that up…) because liturgy is liturgy and devotions are not liturgy.

For the theological underpinnings of that wall between liturgy and devotion, see Paul IV’s Marialis Cultis.31. … Secondly there are those who, without wholesome liturgical and pastoral criteria, mix practices of piety and liturgical acts in hybrid celebrations. It sometimes happens that novenas or similar practices of piety are inserted into the very celebration of the Eucharistic Sacrifice. This creates the danger that the Lord’s Memorial Rite, instead of being the culmination of the meeting of the Christian community, becomes the occasion, as it were, for devotional practices. For those who act in this way we wish to recall the rule laid down by the Council prescribing that exercises of piety should be harmonized with the liturgy not merged into it. Wise pastoral action should, on the one hand, point out and emphasize the proper nature of the liturgical acts, while on the other hand it should enhance the value of practices of piety in order to adapt them to the needs of individual communities in the Church and to make them valuable aids to the liturgy.

So, if the priest can’t blend devotional practices into a liturgy publicly it would stand to reason that individuals shouldn’t be doing it either, even if it’s privately done.

But again, I’m not making a huge deal of it. It’s not a grave evil. And if the Mass is not in a language that one understands, then it understandable to allow private devotions during those times in the liturgy when they’re hearing what is to them just gibberish.

 

[Saints_Alive]

The 1950 edition of the Holy Bible edited by Rev. Fr. John P. O’Connell approves the practice:

“There are many possible ways of being active at Mass, all good, but some better than others. We may use the time of Mass for our prayers, e.g., the rosary, our favorite novena. Hardly a better time could be chosen for prayer than the time of Mass, when the Sacrifice of Calvary is being renewed and the Son of God is sacramentally present upon the Altar.”

Indeed according to Bl. Henry Suso the prayers we make are heard by Christ more graciously in the Holy Eucharist than elsewhere.

Just noticed this. Thanks for posting it !

 

[O_Moriah]

Just noticed this. Thanks for posting it !

Notice the date. What was recommended applied to the EF, not the OF.

And even then, there was as much if not more encouragement during the 50s to pay attention to the actual text being prayed during the EF as witnessed by all those personal missals which had the Latin text on one side and the English translation on the other precisely so that people can participate more fully in the prayer of the Eucharistic Sacrifice of the Lord rather than a devotional prayer to a saint.

 

[TimSpalding]

Again, for those who posted saying that she should not be praying her Rosary at Mass, I’d refer them back to Pope Pius XII’s quote above where he specifically says such a practice is fine.

People should not place their personal opinions above the Popes.

As FordhamStudent so nicely summarized, the liturgical reforms at Vatican II were very much aimed to address practices that detracted from the full, active and conscious participation of the People of God in the sacrifice of the mass—private prayers during mass, side masses, private masses, etc. This was the central effort of the council in liturgical matters, as explained in Sacrosanctam Concilium:

“In the restoration and promotion of the sacred liturgy, this full and active participation by all the people is the aim to be considered before all else.”

Later:

It is to be stressed that whenever rites, according to their specific nature, make provision for communal celebration involving the presence and active participation of the faithful, this way of celebrating them is to be preferred, so far as possible, to a celebration that is individual and quasi-private. This applies with especial force to the celebration of Mass and the administration of the sacraments, even though every Mass has of itself a public and social nature.

Needless to say, Pope Pius’s comments on the topic are hardly to be set and ranked above the acts of an general council. Does that me the person you saw was sinning? Surely not. But that the church desires this sort of practice to give way to full and active participation? Clearly so.

 

[Saints_Alive]

Notice the date. What was recommended applied to the EF, not the OF.

And even then, there was as much if not more encouragement during the 50s to pay attention to the actual text being prayed during the EF as witnessed by all those personal missals which had the Latin text on one side and the English translation on the other precisely so that people can participate more fully in the prayer of the Eucharistic Sacrifice of the Lord rather than a devotional prayer to a saint.

As I quoted in post 18 …

“The Holy Mass is a prayer itself, even the highest prayer that exists. It is the Sacrifice, dedicated by our Redeemer at the Cross, and repeated every day on the altar. If you wish to hear Mass as it should be heard, you must follow with eye, heart and mouth all that happens at the altar. Further, you must pray with the priest the holy words said by him in the Name of Christ and which Christ says by him. You have to associate your heart with the holy feelings which are contained in these words and in this manner you ought to follow all that happens at the altar. When acting in this way, you have prayed Holy Mass.”
St Pius X

I don’t see anyone here promoting the Rosary over following the prayers of the Mass in the manner recommended by St Pius X. And it’s understandable that those who see someone praying the Rosary at an OF Mass may think it’s wrong. But it isn’t wrong, and it isn’t an abuse or novelty because it isn’t something inserted into the Liturgy itself.

I wouldn’t recommend the Rosary be prayed during the OF, especially to those new to the Faith. I think it would be much better for them to gain a complete understanding of every moment of the Mass.

The EF provides many more moments in which the Rosary can be prayed. For example, one could pray a decade while the altar is censed.

I think it’s just one of those things where it’s best not to argue against the practice nor promote it. Just accept it as one of the countless ways we nourish our spiritual needs as we practice Catholicism.

 

[Saints_Alive]

As FordhamStudent so nicely summarized, the liturgical reforms at Vatican II were very much aimed to address practices that detracted from the full, active and conscious participation of the People of God in the sacrifice of the mass—private prayers during mass, side masses, private masses, etc. This was the central effort of the council in liturgical matters, as explained in Sacrosanctam Concilium:Later:Needless to say, Pope Pius’s comments on the topic are hardly to be set and ranked above the acts of an general council. Does that me the person you saw was sinning? Surely not. But that the church desires this sort of practice to give way to full and active participation? Clearly so.

full and active participation

Tim if you have ever assisted a EF and followed along with a missal, then I’d say you’ve experienced " full and active participation" in about as an intense manner as possible.

More audible responses and prayers by the laity in the OF do not mean more participation, It simply means more audible participation. And that’s fine. It does encourage participation in a way that expecting us to follow along with a missal does.

I just feel that at no time should we argue against the praying of the Rosary. At Mass or otherwise. And note that the sources provided that encourage focusing on the prayers of the Mass don’t discourage the Rosary specifically.

I think Fr Serpa’s reply says it best. (thanks pnewton)

The rosary is mainly about the life of Jesus. To meditate on His life does not contradict what is taking place at Mass. In the past when people could not understand the Latin, it was a form of prayer that worked for many. Today there are still situations with language and age that make the rosary an effective means for some people at Mass.

But for most people, the celebration of the Lord’s death and resurrection (which is what the Mass is) demands their full attention and participation. It is the prayer of Jesus to His Father and nothing can equal it.

Fr. Vincent Serpa, O.P.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=58422

I will add that I feel if someone is praying the Rosary at an OF Mass because an EF isn’t available and that person feels the OF is lacking in some way, then that is very wrong.
jmo

 

[TimSpalding]

Tim if you have ever assisted a EF and followed along with a missal, then I’d say you’ve experienced " full and active participation" in about as an intense manner as possible.

I’ll take your word for it. As someone who understands Latin pretty well, I find it distancing, and more than a bit strange to be surrounded by people who do not understand the language, yet somehow prefer it. I can’t say as I’ve ever heard of someone who decided to went to Spanish mass in order to follow along in a missal, when an English mass was available.

I can only conclude that those who prefer it do so because of the differences in content, or through some sort of mystification of language. For my part I see the Latin language as a language, not a mystery.(1) The mystery is the mass itself. I believe that Jesus asks us to enter into it.

I concede that your mileage may vary.

I just feel that at no time should we argue against the praying of the Rosary. At Mass or otherwise. And note that the sources provided that encourage focusing on the prayers of the Mass don’t discourage the Rosary specifically.

I understand your point, but I think it’s simply incontrovertible that the intention of the Council Fathers, of the Liturgical Movement that moved it, and of the commissions that revised the mass, was to deprecate such practices. Maybe they were misguided.

---

1. If I want to get closest to the meaning of the readings, I bring along my Greek Bible—with Latin en regarde, which helps when my Greek fails—but I would never pray in Greek.

 

[pnewton]

full and active participation

Tim if you have ever assisted a EF and followed along with a missal, then I’d say you’ve experienced " full and active participation" in about as an intense manner as possible.

Or followed along in any form of the Mass, in any Rite. There is not need to specify the form.

 

[Immacolata]

This morning the lady next to me got out her rosary beads at the beginning of Mass but did not do anything with them until she went up for communion. Then, she had the beads wrapped around her wrist. Afterwards she put them back in her purse. I thought that was interesting. Come to think of it, I have seen other people in line with the beads wrapped around their hands or wrists in the past. What is the reason for that custom?

I am not sure of the exact reason of the custom; but I, myself, take my Rosary to Mass, and when I sit down in the pew, I wrap it around my hand — however, I do not pray it. I saw a woman do this at Mass (from what I saw, she was not praying it either), and it inspired me to do so; I like to think of the Rosary symbolizing Our Lady’s motherly hand holding mine.

 

[pnewton]

I like to think of the Rosary symbolizing Our Lady’s motherly hand holding mine.

Holding hands during Mass? Let’s not go down there.

 

[YoungTradCath]

It seems to me a perfectly fine way to participate in Mass. I think we start to have problems when what the people at Mass do is uber regulated.

 

[O_Moriah]

It seems to me a perfectly fine way to participate in Mass. I think we start to have problems when what the people at Mass do is uber regulated.

By definition, you’re participating in the rosary when you pray the rosary and not the Mass. So, it’s not participating in the Mass. The rosary is not part of the Mass.

 

[robwar]

I just feel that at no time should we argue against the praying of the Rosary. At Mass or otherwise. And note that the sources provided that encourage focusing on the prayers of the Mass don’t discourage the Rosary specifically.

---

1. If I want to get closest to the meaning of the readings, I bring along my Greek Bible—with Latin en regarde, which helps when my Greek fails—but I would never pray in Greek.

I think Tim you said it best. From the OP’s description, she was at Mass praying the rosary and didn’t go up to receive the Eucharist. It seems like splitting hairs here between EF and NO Masses. There are so many distracting and innattentive things that people do at Mass that to worry about someone praying the rosary at Mass and not receiving is the least of them.

 

[robwar]

It seems to me a perfectly fine way to participate in Mass. I think we start to have problems when what the people at Mass do is uber regulated.

Yes agree.

 

[missadeangelis]

If she didn’t receive, then she may not have actually been ‘attending’ that Mass, but doing a private devotion while Mass was being celebrated.

If she did receive, or, if she was attending her obligatory Mass, then she should not have been praying the rosary if this was a Novus Ordo Mass. Not that what she did would have been a grave sin, but the whole purpose of the Novus Ordo was to bring about greater participation in the very prayers of the Eucharist as the primary ‘text’ of communal prayer. Personal devotions should be put aside in favor of a Eucharistic piety, devotion, and worship.

Now, if the Mass was in English, and she didn’t know English, then her participation in the Eucharistic prayer would not have been fully… participatory. And in that case, sure, private devotional prayer would have been OK otherwise.

The last paragraph makes a good point. The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass occurs on the altar during every Catholic Mass regardless of how one experiences it in the pews. The Mass is salutary in and of itself and the graces of Holy Communion correspond with one’s interior disposition when receiving the Blessed Sacrament. The person praying the Rosary could very well have a better disposition than the guy texting on his cellphone for half the Mass. Full, active participation perhaps was something that the Council wanted to initiate, but different people can have very different notions of what constitutes this “full, active and conscious” participation.

mda

 

[pnewton]

The person praying the Rosary could very well have a better disposition than the guy texting on his cellphone for half the Mass.

I think it is a given that texting during Mass is not active participation.

 

[missadeangelis]

The Eucharistic Liturgy was reformed after the Council so that the people would not have to have private devotions during Mass, but rather may actively participate in the responses and offer with the priest the Sacrifice of the Mass while listening in their native language. The elimination of Latin from the Liturgy was done primarily so that people, who were not taught Latin or who were poor at Latin, could understand and thereby unite their hearts to the words at Mass.

The simplification of the rites and rubrics at Mass was also a concession to the people so they could actively participate in the Mass as the people who share in Christ’s priestly, prophetic, and kingly office by virtue of baptism. Saying private devotions at Mass in the reformed rite not only is against the intention of the revision, but is a throwback to a time when people came to Mass and were so mystified by it, because they could not understand it not only in Latin but also because it was almost solely the action of priest and server, that they would use devotions they could understand and use instead.

It boggles my mind that after all of the reforms and concessions to the laity by the Church after the Council that once again people would desire to return to the extraordinary form of Mass. Although the previous Missal shows the beauty of European Catholicism in its medieval form, nevertheless most people will never understand Latin nor the complexity of such a service–even though the Pontiff has allowed its use again. In fact once a person can learn Latin and understand the old Missal when the priest and server are saying their parts in the Liturgy it would still lack the level of participation required of the fully initiated People of God. The old Mass does not have, in my view, the renewed appreciation for the theology articulated in Vatican II on the lay apostolate and the dignity of our baptism as calling us to a mature, articulate, and active ministry not only in the Liturgical celebration but also in the Church and in the world.

Many people see the older rite of Mass as superior in beauty and majesty than the newer rite, but what I see in the new rite of Mass is a return to a more apostolic and participatory celebration which uses the gifts of all the People of God and not merely of the priest and his server. The newer form of Mass by its very nature rejects individualism and mere personal piety during the Eucharistic celebration of the assembly united to the priest. That said, it is a joy to have great diversity of rites in the Catholic Church and each are used by the Spirit to lead us to our end in God.

This notion that nobody knew what was going on at masses before Vatican II and/or don’t understand the EF is just not true and frankly it’s a broken record that I get tired of hearing. They made and still do make Latin/English missals where the Latin is on the left and neatly corresponds with the translated English on the right. It’s not complicated and one need not be a Latin scholar. I find it interesting that amidst all this “full, active and conscious” participation that so many Catholics could still know so little about the meaning and significance of the Mass and the Faith in general. Memorizing vernacular phrases and really understanding what they mean theologically are two different things. I also think it’s a bit of an insult to those who attend the EF to state that most people will apparently never understand the complexity of such a “medieval” service. Vatican II did not abrogate everything that preceded it or somehow render these things less Holy. The hermeneutic of continuity applies across the board.

 

[pnewton]

This notion that nobody knew what was going on at masses before Vatican II and/or don’t understand the EF is just not true and frankly it’s a broken record that I get tired of hearing.

In light of saying a rosary during Mass, you will have to blame Pope Pius XII for this idea. From the earlier quote.

*Many of the faithful are unable to use the Roman missal even though it is written in the vernacular; **nor are all capable of understanding correctly the liturgical rites and formulas. ***

---

His Holiness tied this practice of saying the rosary to being able to understand the liturgy.

 

[missadeangelis]

In light of saying a rosary during Mass, you will have to blame Pope Pius XII for this idea. From the earlier quote.

*Many of the faithful are unable to use the Roman missal even though it is written in the vernacular; **nor are all capable of understanding correctly the liturgical rites and formulas. ***

---

His Holiness tied this practice of saying the rosary to being able to understand the liturgy.

The quote from His Holiness is a partial statement - it does not say “most” or “all” of the faithful, yet these are the terms often employed today, which results in a misconception of reality.