Rosary: Is it taking scripture out of context?

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In that case, you can only pray the Our Father. Thus, if nothing in Scripture can be taken into prayer. Even simply saying, “Jesus have mercy.” Then you would have to point the finger at yourself and everyone. Since that was not a prayer posited in Scripture.
 
questioner21 said:
I have a question about the “Hail Mary … Jesus.” Whether the quote by the angel and by Elizabeth were meant to be used as a prayer? And by taking as a prayer whether we are taking it out of context?
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The word for “worshipping” is leitourgountōn, which means “serving”, typically in a religious context—it is used frequently in the Septuagint for the service that the priests perform in the temple (cf. Heb. 10:11). This is a different idea to that signified by the more common word for worship proskuneō, which has connotations of prostration.

In the same context: reference to Acts 22:17-18 that in verse 16 Paul is instructed by Ananias to be baptized, “calling on his name”. To call on the name of the Lord has to do with salvation (cf. Acts 2:21); it is to identify with, or seek help from, the one who will deliver his people from the wrath to come. In that respect it cannot be taken as paradigmatic for prayer generally. It explains Paul’s baptism, not his praying in the temple.

So calling on Mary - in the same flex, we are seeking help. Depends on how one uses the scriptural meaning.

According to the apostles Peter and John they appear to quote from the Old Testament or the hebrew bible. Did they take scripture out of context? Given this example:

Acts 4:20:25

On their release, Peter and John went back to their own people and reported all that the chief priests and elders had said to them.24When they heard this, they raised their voices together in prayer to God. “Sovereign Lord,” they said, "you made the heaven and the earth and the sea, and everything in them.

See Nehemiah 9:

You alone are the LORD. You made the heavens, even the highest heavens, and all their starry host, the earth and all that is on it, the seas and all that is in them. You give life to everything, and the multitudes of heaven worship you.7
 
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Praying the Holy Rosary is taking Holy Scripture into context: Christ Himself.
 
questioner21 said:
My questions is about the Hail Mary, as to whether it was ever meant to be a prayer and by taking it is as prayer whether we are taking scripture out of context.
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OK, let’s leave Mary aside and just say is it okay to recite verses of Scripture and call it a prayer.
This is an acceptable practice.
The original Rosary was basically the recitation of the Psalms. A recitation of Scripture.
Back before printing was invented, most people did not have access to a Bible to read, and many people never even learned to read.
They recited Scripture, piously, often just a verse here and there because it’s doubtful that many of them were able to memorize huge sections. If recited piously and with the intent to pray, it was a prayer.
 
The reason we Catholics use Scripture verses as prayer, is that the Mass uses verses, both as prayers and as antiphonal responses and verses. And the Church does that because the Temple did that. And the Temple did that because God said so.

Look, Scripture is inspired by the Holy Spirit. It is the Holy Spirit Who makes it possible for us to pray, inspired us to pray, and prays perfectly through our imperfect motivations and knowledge. So why would it be wrong to pray with words inspired by Him?

And since we are part of the Body of Christ, and He is the Word, why not pray with the Word?
 
Actually, the Latin Judges translation I see says that the angel just said, “The Lord is with you, mightiest of men.” The Greek says, “The Lord is with you, you strong in strength (dynameon) one.” The Hebrew literally says, “The Lord is with you, mighty man of valor.” I literally do not know where the “Hail” thing cited by the OP is coming from.

(The “mighty man” is gibbowr, which sometimes connotes being partly of “giant” or Amorite ancestry. “Valor” is hayil, which means being both brave and enterprising, taking the initiative in a canny way. The Valiant Woman of Proverbs, for example, was about hayil, and so was Ruth.)

St. Gideon’s saint day is September 26 or September 1. He was considered one of the Twelve Worthies, in medieval pop culture.

And it is funny you should mention him, because his sign of dew on the fleece is commonly referenced during Advent in the Mass and other liturgies, as foreshadowing of Jesus’ incarnation (compared to the dew) within Mary (who is compared to the fleece). There are a lot of hymns and prayers made out of it, along with other dew references in the Bible.

(Over on the Eastern side, the Akathist Hymn includes this: “Rejoice o Virgin, o bedewed fleece which Gideon foresaw.” )
 
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OP, your argument throughout this thread reads as though the only acceptable prayer is the Lord’s Prayer (or that and any spontaneously crafted one that doesn’t quote scripture). In that case, the entire Mass and all of our liturgies are “out of context” per your definition as well, are they not? Am I misunderstanding you?
 
First of all: welcome!
questioner21 said:
In the old testament, we have an angel coming to Guideon and starts with “Hail mighty champion” however there is no prayer honoring Guideon.
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To many Protestants, the first part of the Hail Mary would come across as excessive glorification of Mary. The point in linking it to Scripture is to show that there is a precedent for the same being said by an angel or by the Holy Spirit, depending on which phrase is under question. It’s more a, “If this is so wrong, why did God and one of His messengers say it?”
questioner21 said:
Jesus when asked a prayer gave us the prayer “Our Father”. He never gave us the Hail Mary. He never said, “Pray like this ‘Hail Mary’”
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As far as I’m aware, it has never been standard Christian practice to limit ourselves to the Our Father. It is an important prayer, but it isn’t the only prayer.

Besides, you’d say six Our Fathers over the course of a full Rosary, so it is hardly forgotten.
questioner21 said:
Mother Mary’s last words in scripture are to point us to Jesus. Doesn’t the Rosary fall short of going to Jesus?
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And most of the mysteries are dedicated to the life of Christ. Even the Joyous Mysteries, which are focused on the Holy Family, or last two Glorious Mysteries, which are focused on Mary’s assumption and crowning, have Jesus at the core of the good coming to the others. So while we say the Hail Mary, we meditate on these mysteries, making the Hail Mary, as I’ve heard, the “rhythm of our meditation”. As a result, I’m not sure of the conflict here.
questioner21 said:
At Jesus death the veil in the temple was torn into two signifying that we now have access to GOD. As Catholics by praying the rosary are we not saying that Jesus’ death is in vain as we don’t directly approach his Throne of Grace?
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questioner21 said:
In Hebrews we are told that we can boldly approach his Throne of Grace because he has gone through all we have. Yet we stop short.
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By this logic, we shouldn’t ask others to pray for us.

And I’m not really sure how you pray the Rosary, but there’s frequent occurrences of the Our Father, Glory Be, one or both of the Fatima Prayer and O Sacrament Most Holy, and the prayers to Jesus regarding each mystery. This is hardly a time of excluding God from prayer.

Finally, if God is omnipresent, how can any of these prayers be considered to somehow have us not approaching Him? He’s already approached us. Should every prayer be prayed before the Blessed Sacrament, to get as close as physically possible to God? No, that’s not a requirement. But if we aren’t required to take those measures to be staring at the physical presence of God, I’m not sure why we would put such emphasis on only praying to God directly because doing otherwise somehow means we aren’t approaching Him.
 
Oh, a new topic where people question the prayers offered to Our Lady and her glorious intercession.
Maybe this is the 750th topic with the same poor premise… 😒
 
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Tis_Bearself said:
OK, let’s leave Mary aside and just say is it okay to recite verses of Scripture and call it a prayer.
This is an acceptable practice.
The original Rosary was basically the recitation of the Psalms. A recitation of Scripture.
Back before printing was invented, most people did not have access to a Bible to read, and many people never even learned to read.
They recited Scripture, piously, often just a verse here and there because it’s doubtful that many of them were able to memorize huge sections. If recited piously and with the intent to pray, it was a prayer.
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Yes, but is the question she’s asking mostly about worship or is it a matter of seeking help through reciting the verses using the rosary? The citation taken out of the bible use in the rosary came while “Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit.” The “key” is that the greeting came out from Elizabeth while she was filled with the Holy Spirit.

You could compare this with Matthew 16, when Peter declared Jesus as the Messiah, “17 Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven.”

Two notations:

The Holy Spirit rests upon a person and in this case, Elizabeth when Mary greeted her.

and, the other - Although the accompanying lights are not expressly mentioned, the frequently recurring phrase “he beheld [“heẓiẓ”] in the Holy Spirit” shows that he upon whom the spirit rested saw a light. The Holy Spirit gleamed in the court of Shem, of Samuel, and of King Solomon (Gen. R. lxxxv. 12). It “glimmered” in Tamar (Gen. xxxviii. 18), in the sons of Jacob (Gen. xlii. 11), and in Moses (Ex. ii. 12), i.e. , it settled upon the persons in question (see Gen. R. lxxxv. 9, xci. 7; Lev. R. xxxii. 4, “niẓoẓah” and “heẓiẓ”; comp. also Lev. R. viii. 2, “hitḥil le-gashgesh”). From the day that Joseph was sold the Holy Spirit left Jacob, who saw and heard only indistinctly (Gen. R. xci. 6). The Holy Spirit, being of heavenly origin, is composed, like everything that comes from heaven, of light and fire. When it rested upon Phinehas his face burned like a torch (Lev. R. xxi., end). When the Temple was destroyed and Israel went into exile, the Holy Spirit returned to heaven; this is indicated in Eccl. xii. 7: "the spirit shall return unto God"

So again, was the greeting taken out of context when we say the rosary? NO!
 
Tis_Bearself said:
It’s almost like we need a whole subsection of the forum just for Mary issues.
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Might have to…! I feel that the question will not gather a “short” yes or no. The recitation of the Rosary, which is good, allow us to focus on biblical verses as we are saying each decade. What it is fostering is the same equivalency of reading the bible but with aid. Personal it take me a long time to get toward the end because I take the long route and study scripture and it allows to open my mind.

There are days that I really have to fight to make the time or to be very diligent! Many “good” blessings come by saying the rosary. What does the rosary encourage! The rosary when said offers spiritual guidance while focusing on scripture, provides help from the saints who offer support - spiritually and physically, you begin to bond in your relationship with God when you study his word while in prayer…and also, how often said whether at the beginning of the day or at night it leaves with a sense of rest & peace. The day just runs better and everything that seemed difficult to handle had just made issues smoother or semi smoother! It is still spending time with God while Jesus builds bridges in that relationship.
 
First of all Happy Feast of the annunciation since today is the 25th of March.

Thank you for taking the effort to reason with me. I am grateful.

Yes, I am aware that the Rosary was the recitation of the Psalms so the number of decades recited in the rosary = 50 x 3 (the number of mysteries before the introduction of the luminous) = 150 i.e. the number of psalms. That is exactly what I teach those that I catechize.

I agree that we use a lot of scripture in prayer as it should be. However, we would not use certain sections of scripture as prayer. e.g. Matthew 23:13 " Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites. You lock the kingdom of heaven before human beings. You do not enter yourselves, nor do you allow entrance to those trying to enter." or for that matter the prayer that the Pharisee makes in the temple in Luke 18. My opinion is that they were not meant to be prayed.

So, I am wondering aloud whether the greetings to Mother Mary would be classified as scripture that is not meant to be prayed? The first greeting by the angel and the next greeting by Elizabeth.

I know that in this forum there are those that are absolutely sure about their faith and would want anybody asking any questions burned at the stake. We did it to Joan of Arc and later declared her a saint. Yet it is exactly because I question that I have become stronger in my faith.
 
questioner21 said:
Thank you for the graphic. As some one who has studied at a Catholic Bible institute I am very aware of this graphic.

My question is whether the “Hail Mary” was ever intended to be a prayer. To me it seems like it is scripture taken out of context. That is my primary concern.
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I don’t agree and here’s why:

Scripture says that God’s will should be done on earth as it is in heaven.

And God wills that the Angels praise Mary:
Luke 1:26 In the sixth month, the angel Gabriel was sent from God to a town of Galilee called Nazareth, 27 to a virgin betrothed to a man named Joseph, of the house of David, and the virgin’s name was Mary. 28 And coming to her, he said, “Hail, favored one! The Lord is with you.”
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Let’s break this down:

ANGEL GABRIEL
  1. an angel is a messenger of God. That is what the word, angel, means.
  2. this angel, Gabriel, is one of the four angels that stands before the throne of God.
WAS SENT FROM GOD
  1. God sent this angel to Mary.
  2. Since this angel is a messenger of God’s, God sent Him to deliver a message.
  3. Therefore, the angel was not speaking on his own, but was communicating God’s message to Mary.
  4. If we skip down to verse 28, we see that this was a message of praise (i.e. blessed art thou).
    5. Therefore God praised Mary through His Angel.
That is great praise indeed. Do you know of any man whose praise is worth more than God’s? In other words, what do you value more highly, the praise of man or the praise of God?

And if God is sending His angel to praise Mary, what do you think He wants you to do?

Luke 1:48 For he has looked upon his handmaid’s lowliness; behold, from now on will all ages call me blessed.

That’s a command from God, for all of us to praise Mary. And God has given us the words to use, in Scripture.
 
First of all, the purpose of the forum is to ask questions, so no one is going to burn anybody at the stake for asking sincere questions. You probably sense some impatience in the replies because we get so many questions from people who are uncomfortable with Marian devotions or the concept of praying to Mary etc Sometimes they go through a long speech about how they “love Mary, BUT…” (complaint about a prayer etc) which is about on the same level as people who say, “I’m not racist, BUT…” and then make some statement that definitely sounds racist. Mother Mary is also kind of an emotional topic for many Catholics, and I would put myself in that group, because we are very attached to her and we get a lot of weird attacks and PMs from people who have issues with her for no good reason at all. So I think maybe a better approach for me to discuss your question is to just focus on the issue of whether Scripture makes a proper prayer and not think so much about Mother Mary.

With respect to Scripture that is “not meant to be prayed”, I guess it depends on what you consider to be “prayer”. Does prayer always have to be us directing some kind of a statement of worship, request, praise etc to God? Or can it take a lot of different forms?

I tend to take a really broad view of what “prayer” is. For me, reading Scripture piously would constitute a prayer. It matters not whether I was reading the one verse with the greeting to Mother Mary over and over again, or some page of Chronicles that’s just a geneaological list of names. The reading of a verse over and over again, to me, is a way of thinking more deeply about it, meditating on it, getting fresh insights from it. We do something similar in Lectio Divina where you take a Scripture reading and you read it over two or three times, think about it, answer some questions with regard to it, and then read it over a couple more times.

In the case of Matthew 23:13, “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees” I can see that being a prayer, not in the sense that I am addressing words to God, but in that I would use it to think about who are the scribes and Pharisees in my current life/ in society, and how do I myself act like a scribe or Pharisee sometimes, and what should I do/ how should I change to be less like that. This to me is a form of prayer even though I’m not engaged in speaking the words to God - I’m not calling God a scribe or Pharisee.

(Continued next post due to character limits)
 
(Continued from last post)

With respect to the verse about Mary, “Hail Mary, full of grace”, one can similarly view that in multiple ways:
  • Giving hyperdulia to Mary, the Mother of God, as Catholics are encouraged to do; and/or
  • Repeating the scripture, like Lectio Divina, as we meditate on it, gain insights, and apply it to our lives; this necessitates thinking about God/ Jesus/ Holy Spirit because the Mysteries of the Rosary all involve God/ Jesus/ Holy Spirit, and in fact many of them don’t even have Mary in them at all.
As you note, today is the Solemnity of the Annunciation of Our Lord . I went to Mass at a church with an elderly, learned Polish priest, and he made the point of saying, two separate times, that the solemnity is called “Annunciation of OUR LORD”, and NOT “Annunciation of Mary”. I know he does not have any problems at all with venerating Mary, but he is making the point that the focus here is on Jesus. And so it is for just about all the Holy Mysteries. Even the seemingly Mary-centric ones like Assumption and Crowning of Mary Queen of Heaven involve God/ Jesus because God is the one who chose to assume, and did assume, Mary into Heaven - she didn’t just rise up there of her own accord but by being perfectly submitted to God’s Will. And her status as Queen of Heaven is a direct result of her Son being King of Heaven, again it’s not something she just went and achieved on her own without God being involved.

It’s okay if you want to take a narrow view of prayer, or a narrow view of Scriptural prayer. You don’t have to recite the Rosary, nor say a Hail Mary. These are private devotions. But for many of us, Scripture used in the Rosary is a background or a jumping-off place for meditation, and thus it makes a very good prayer in our opinion.
 
questioner21 said:
I agree that we use a lot of scripture in prayer as it should be. However, we would not use certain sections of scripture as prayer. e.g. Matthew 23:13 " Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites. You lock the kingdom of heaven before human beings. You do not enter yourselves, nor do you allow entrance to those trying to enter." or for that matter the prayer that the Pharisee makes in the temple in Luke 18. My opinion is that they were not meant to be prayed.
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I think you are entitled to your opinion, and there is nothing that I can see which goes against Church Doctrine. However, prayers are personal, and each soul is different. We are not all the same. Therefore I can imagine someone praying from ANY passage in Scripture. IOW, using any passage for their prayer, if it is a proper prayer in the Catholic sense.

Now it happens that the “Hail Mary” has a very old and rich history. Originally the Hail Mary ended at the words “blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.” But the Protestant Reformers mocked the “ignorant Catholics” because the Angelic Greeting was not in itself a prayer in the usual sense. The Pope then added the second phrase Holy Mary, Mother of God… etc. So we see the Church confirmed the use of the “Hail Mary” as a prayer. In our own time, we saw St. Pope John Paul II adding the Luminous Mysteries to the Rosary, again confirming the “Hail Mary” as a Catholic prayer.

So MY POINT, is that the Hail Mary is INDEED intended to be a prayer, as the Church has confirmed its use over and over again. It is NOT taking Scripture out of context, unless you feel the Church has no business deciding such things. It wasn’t “ignorant Catholics” that gave us the Hail Mary, but, in a way, the Church herself.
 
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If you are concerned with taking scripture out of context, then we should look at what its context says.

After Elizabeth concludes her speech which began
“Bleesed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb,” Mary responds:
My soul proclaims the greatness of the Lord;
my spirit rejoices in God my savior.
For he has looked upon his handmaid’s lowliness;
behold, from now on will all ages call me blessed.
Luke 1:46-48
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Elizabeth’s words here, and in the Hail Mary, already move past the mothee to the Son. Mary takes it a step further to her soul is itself proclaims the greatness of God. When we see Mary, we see God and we rejoice with her.

But then we hear “all ages will call me blessed.” What would that look like? The obvious response would be to take the angel’s greeting, or Elizabeth’s geeting, both of which call Mary blessed, and repeat those words ourselves. Hail Mary Most Blessed…

So in its scrptural context, we are practically told to say, in every generation, Hail Mary full of grace…
 
questioner21 said:
However, we would not use certain sections of scripture as prayer. e.g. Matthew 23:13 " Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites. You lock the kingdom of heaven before human beings. You do not enter yourselves, nor do you allow entrance to those trying to enter."
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I disagree as thoroughly as I possibly can! These words make an excellent prayer for any minister. They always should bear in mind that it is our duty to unlock the kingdom of heaven and enter in ourselves. Or at least, we should point out the Gates God has opened for us, and provide proof that all of us can enter. Though phrased as a condemnation, these words should encourage us to get out of the way when we help people to God.

More broadly, Sacred Scripture is the Word of God. When we use our breath to speak that word, Word and Spirit join to make God present to us. All scripture is useful for teaching and praying as St Paul told St Timothy.
 
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