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Path
Guest
I always seem to get stuck on the mystery of Jesus as a boy staying in the temple after his parents leave for 3 days, this is so inconsiderate and Jesus never doing wrong. any thoughts on this?
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Sir_Knight
Guest
Jesus DIDN’T do anything wrong.
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puzzleannie
Guest
if he was like my kids he would have said plaintively, when questioned by his parents “but you never told me I wasn’t allowed to stay in the temple conversing with the scribes” but he wasn’t like my kids, who certainly are not without sin, as in “You never told us we weren’t allowed to disco dance on the ping pong table.” or “You never told us we weren’t allowed to play star wars on the garage roof”.
J
JKirkLVNV
Guest
When these kinds of questions pop up in my mind, I remind myself,“Well, He’s the Second Person of the Most Holy Trinity. God may do what God may do.” I always wonder why He blasted the fig tree!
B
BayCityRickL
Guest
The gospel account of Jesus being “lost” in the Temple is interesting, I agree. Such things are worth meditating on, for years, if necessary, and with prayer, for sure.
Jewish boys and girls go through a bar mitzvah or bat mitzvah. I wish our confirmation ritual were as personal as these.
Perhaps what’s unsaid in the Scripture is that technically Jesus had his bar mitzvah, which made Him a “man” in terms of the Jewish faith. This was a “rite of passage” in terms of His development in the Jewish faith.
If this is plausible, then Jesus was reasonably well-versed in our ordinary standards to be accepted in the Temple among the teachers and scribes.
There might be two twists to the story. One, is whether it really occurred. I am not a skeptic, but there are more people who are more vocally skeptic about everything in Scripture. And, some are skeptical about whether Jesus “knew” who He was. I think this scripture addresses that question in a way, that He says He must be “about” His Father’s business. I don’t think there’s any doubt that Jesus knew who He was.
(According to Strong’s concordance, the word “business” is a word inserted by the translators, for the sense of the meaning. I’ll have to look into this further.)
The other twist is the parental thing. Jesus must have been very mature and responsible for His parents to have lost track of Him. Perhaps they were not irresponsible, but simply accustomed to giving Him privileges because of His age.
Joseph must have been still living at this time, according to the text. I think this is the last reference to him.
I think this story is a good endorsement for scripture study, scripture study by young people, and a good example for teaching responsibility to young people.
Jewish boys and girls go through a bar mitzvah or bat mitzvah. I wish our confirmation ritual were as personal as these.
Perhaps what’s unsaid in the Scripture is that technically Jesus had his bar mitzvah, which made Him a “man” in terms of the Jewish faith. This was a “rite of passage” in terms of His development in the Jewish faith.
If this is plausible, then Jesus was reasonably well-versed in our ordinary standards to be accepted in the Temple among the teachers and scribes.
There might be two twists to the story. One, is whether it really occurred. I am not a skeptic, but there are more people who are more vocally skeptic about everything in Scripture. And, some are skeptical about whether Jesus “knew” who He was. I think this scripture addresses that question in a way, that He says He must be “about” His Father’s business. I don’t think there’s any doubt that Jesus knew who He was.
(According to Strong’s concordance, the word “business” is a word inserted by the translators, for the sense of the meaning. I’ll have to look into this further.)
The other twist is the parental thing. Jesus must have been very mature and responsible for His parents to have lost track of Him. Perhaps they were not irresponsible, but simply accustomed to giving Him privileges because of His age.
Joseph must have been still living at this time, according to the text. I think this is the last reference to him.
I think this story is a good endorsement for scripture study, scripture study by young people, and a good example for teaching responsibility to young people.
T
Todd_Easton
Guest
Can you imagine how frantic Joseph and Mary must have been when they realized they lost not only their son … but the very Messiah himself who had been entrusted to their care? However, it must have been more important for Jesus to discourse with the teachers at the Temple at that time than ease his parents’ concerns, like when Jesus delayed visiting his sick friend Lazarus and allowing him to die and then resurrecting him.
I like to think of this mystery as a preparation for Mary so that she could later endure the greatest of all sorrows, the death and burial of Jesus, when she was to lose him again for three days and then receive him back again at his own resurrection.
I like to think of this mystery as a preparation for Mary so that she could later endure the greatest of all sorrows, the death and burial of Jesus, when she was to lose him again for three days and then receive him back again at his own resurrection.
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NightRider
Guest
Todd Easton:
I like your take on this, especially your second paragraph–I’ve never looked at this mystery in this way before. Thank you for your post!
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Count_Chocula
Guest
God is God, he gets to make his own rules, Jesus cannot sin because of this. God is totally free to make rules that we have to listen to that he does not.
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mlchance
Guest
Count Chocula:
God is not the god of double standards. Morality is what it is because God’s nature is unchanging and the standards never waver.
That aside, here’s a question: How is it known that Christ Jesus was defying his parents? Did he stay behind without permission, or was he left behind by relatives who didn’t bother to take a head count?
In Jesus’ day, older boys traveled with the men, who traveled separately from the women. Younger boys stayed with the women. Christ Jesus was at that age when, in Jewish tradition, he wasn’t necessarily older or younger.
Mary probably assumed that Jesus was traveling with the men. Joseph in turn probably assumed that Jesus was traveling with the women. As a result, Jesus got left behind in Jerusalem by a gaggle of relatives who, for whatever reason, didn’t notice he was missing.
So what did Jesus do? He stayed at the Temple, the one place he figured Mary and Joseph would return to in order to find him. This reinforced by Jesus’ response to Mary’s question:
Mary: “My child, why have you done this to us? See how worried your and I have been, looking for you.”
Jesus: “Why were you looking for me? Did you not know that I must be in my Father’s house?”
IOW, a day out of Jerusalem, the family notices they forgot Jesus. They return to the city and search for three days, looking every place but the first place they should’ve gone to: the Temple.
There’s also an interesting lesson here for us. When we notice Jesus is missing from our lives, where do we go to search for him? When we eventually find him, do we try to blame him for being difficult to locate?
– Mark L. Chance.
Umm…no.
God is not the god of double standards. Morality is what it is because God’s nature is unchanging and the standards never waver.
That aside, here’s a question: How is it known that Christ Jesus was defying his parents? Did he stay behind without permission, or was he left behind by relatives who didn’t bother to take a head count?
In Jesus’ day, older boys traveled with the men, who traveled separately from the women. Younger boys stayed with the women. Christ Jesus was at that age when, in Jewish tradition, he wasn’t necessarily older or younger.
Mary probably assumed that Jesus was traveling with the men. Joseph in turn probably assumed that Jesus was traveling with the women. As a result, Jesus got left behind in Jerusalem by a gaggle of relatives who, for whatever reason, didn’t notice he was missing.
So what did Jesus do? He stayed at the Temple, the one place he figured Mary and Joseph would return to in order to find him. This reinforced by Jesus’ response to Mary’s question:
Mary: “My child, why have you done this to us? See how worried your and I have been, looking for you.”
Jesus: “Why were you looking for me? Did you not know that I must be in my Father’s house?”
IOW, a day out of Jerusalem, the family notices they forgot Jesus. They return to the city and search for three days, looking every place but the first place they should’ve gone to: the Temple.
There’s also an interesting lesson here for us. When we notice Jesus is missing from our lives, where do we go to search for him? When we eventually find him, do we try to blame him for being difficult to locate?
– Mark L. Chance.
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asquared
Guest
we once left my younger sister at a toll plaza on the PA turnpike, but I don’t think either she or my parents were sinning.
K
Katholikos
Guest
BayCityRickL wrote:
The book, The Consciousness of Christ by Rev. William G. Most (Christendom Publications, Front Royal, VA, 1980) documents the teaching of the Church on this subject throughout history.
Fr. Most wrote that the error was spread through the writings of Father Raymond Brown, who stated that “Jesus had ‘some sort of intuition or immediate awareness of who he was, but . . . that his ability to express this in a communicable way had to be acquired gradually.’ To put it simply: Jesus knew in some vague way who He was but somehow could not manage to say it! This view is basicaly the same as that of Karl Rahner, who holds that the self knowledge of Jesus paralleled that of ordinary humans” (p. 6).
Just wanted to provide some documentation for the Magisterial teaching. Carry on, y’all.
JMJ Jay
Neither does the Church think there is any doubt. Questioning whether Jesus knew who he was is due either to ignorance of Church teaching or outright dissent. The question was clearly answered in modern times by Pope Pius XII in 1943 in Mystici Corporis. See also Lamentabili in which Pope Piux X (1907), against the Modernists, rejected the proposition that “Christ did not always have a consciousness of His messianic dignity.”
The book, The Consciousness of Christ by Rev. William G. Most (Christendom Publications, Front Royal, VA, 1980) documents the teaching of the Church on this subject throughout history.
Fr. Most wrote that the error was spread through the writings of Father Raymond Brown, who stated that “Jesus had ‘some sort of intuition or immediate awareness of who he was, but . . . that his ability to express this in a communicable way had to be acquired gradually.’ To put it simply: Jesus knew in some vague way who He was but somehow could not manage to say it! This view is basicaly the same as that of Karl Rahner, who holds that the self knowledge of Jesus paralleled that of ordinary humans” (p. 6).
Just wanted to provide some documentation for the Magisterial teaching. Carry on, y’all.
JMJ Jay
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goravens
Guest
I must admit this passage has always bugged me too. A couple comments as food for thought, that helped me understand this mystery better (but far from totally!) :
Just before the Finding in the Temple in Luke’s gospel, Mary and Joseph present Jesus to Simeon and Simeon tells Mary of the suffering she will endure (“and you yourself a sword will pierce”). The finding in the temple occurs right after this and starts the beginning of Mary’s suffering as foretold. Mary doesn’t understand Jesus but she ponders all these things, just as she did at Jesus’ birth.
There’s also a distinction between Jesus’ physical and spiritual families. He honors his physical family but the ultimate honor goes to God.
There’s also further significance to what the gospel author is trying to tell his audience…In this scene, Jesus travels from Galilee to Jerusalem, He is in the temple doing the will of the Father, and He’s lost for three days but then found on the 3rd day (just like the sequence of events leading up to and during His passion). It’s a prefigurement of the coming sacrifice Jesus will make for us, the most ultimate reason He came to this earth.
I hope those insights help even a little bit. Best wishes!
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Mrs_P
Guest
When I meditate on the finding of Jesus in the temple mystery, I pray that I may always seek Jesus - everywhere, in everyone, in all circumstances. He’s there all right.
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RSiscoe
Guest
Mrs P:
I also think Jesus was giving Mary and Joseph a chance to practice virtue by his absence. We sometimes have to go through a similar experience when we have dryness, and do not “feel” God near us. We “seek” God, but do not seem to “find” Him (on the level of our senses). We feel like God has abandonded us, but He is really just exercising us in virtue, so that we can learn to love Him even when we do not feel His sweet presense. If we love Him only when we feel Him, our love is not pure. Therefore, he sometimes abandons us (on the level of our feelings) to enable us to purify our love for Him.
There are probably mysteries in the decade that we don’t fully understand. I find that most of the things that Jesus did or said have a parallel to our interior spiritual lives.
That’s kind of the way I approach the mystery as well. I usually offer up that particular decade for the gift of final perseverance. Since Mary and Joseph “persevered” in finding Jesus, when they must have been in great sorrow, it seem appropriate to ask for the gift of perseverance.
I also think Jesus was giving Mary and Joseph a chance to practice virtue by his absence. We sometimes have to go through a similar experience when we have dryness, and do not “feel” God near us. We “seek” God, but do not seem to “find” Him (on the level of our senses). We feel like God has abandonded us, but He is really just exercising us in virtue, so that we can learn to love Him even when we do not feel His sweet presense. If we love Him only when we feel Him, our love is not pure. Therefore, he sometimes abandons us (on the level of our feelings) to enable us to purify our love for Him.
There are probably mysteries in the decade that we don’t fully understand. I find that most of the things that Jesus did or said have a parallel to our interior spiritual lives.
K
kmmd
Guest
I appreciate the different aspects of meditation on this particular mystery. I would like to offer the thoughts that have come to me.
Jesus must have been a joy to raise in that he was the perfect child. I am sure that you have all heard a mother say of one her children “That one… never gave me any trouble” That was Jesus only more so.
When they thought they lost Him, Mary and Joseph were frightened. They searched frantically and when they finally found him, it was He who corrected them. They couldn’t be angry with him. They knew that he could not be at fault. They were mystified. Mary “pondered these things in her heart”.
When we are scared and feel as though God has abandoned us, we should remember to seek Him in the Father’s house. He is always waiting for us in the tabernacle.
Jesus must have been a joy to raise in that he was the perfect child. I am sure that you have all heard a mother say of one her children “That one… never gave me any trouble” That was Jesus only more so.
When they thought they lost Him, Mary and Joseph were frightened. They searched frantically and when they finally found him, it was He who corrected them. They couldn’t be angry with him. They knew that he could not be at fault. They were mystified. Mary “pondered these things in her heart”.
When we are scared and feel as though God has abandoned us, we should remember to seek Him in the Father’s house. He is always waiting for us in the tabernacle.
A
Anna_Elizabeth
Guest
When I saw the title of this thread I did so hope that it was this particular mystery! For years it has driven me just about nuts. As I told a marvelous young priest in Confession, “I usually just set aside things that are too complicated for me, but this problem comes up every couple of days when I say the Joyful Mysteries, and there’s no way I can ignore it!”
I explained to him that it was especially hard for me, because, over the years I taught many not-so-good boys, including at least six boys who are now in prison for murder, and I am certain that at age ten or twelve not even one of them would have done this to his mother. In fact, one actually went to his mother’s house after the murder and left a note for his mother saying that he had to get out of town. (Not too swift, I’ll admit.)
Father told me to never set a mystery aside, but to “dig and dig” at it. By this I think he meant to stay with it, meditate on it, etc. until something made sense. I, too, have been taught the parallel between the three Temple days and the three tomb days, but that doesn’t help me. I still, unfortunately, think (and as a mother, I feel), that it was a very unkind thing to do.
Mary leaves no doubt about it, you’ll notice. She makes it quite clear that they were worried. Thanks for bringing this up. Sorry I just add to the problem.
Help!
Anna
I explained to him that it was especially hard for me, because, over the years I taught many not-so-good boys, including at least six boys who are now in prison for murder, and I am certain that at age ten or twelve not even one of them would have done this to his mother. In fact, one actually went to his mother’s house after the murder and left a note for his mother saying that he had to get out of town. (Not too swift, I’ll admit.)
Father told me to never set a mystery aside, but to “dig and dig” at it. By this I think he meant to stay with it, meditate on it, etc. until something made sense. I, too, have been taught the parallel between the three Temple days and the three tomb days, but that doesn’t help me. I still, unfortunately, think (and as a mother, I feel), that it was a very unkind thing to do.
Mary leaves no doubt about it, you’ll notice. She makes it quite clear that they were worried. Thanks for bringing this up. Sorry I just add to the problem.
Help!
Anna
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Didi
Guest
I often think of the people that heard Jesus teach during His time at the temple. Perhaps there was someone there who really needed to be touched by Jesus and have some kind of deeper understanding of the scriptures. Perhaps even some of His future disciples were at the temple that day and wouldn’t have bothered to follow Him if they hadn’t heard Him teach as a young boy.
I try to remember that God’s ways are not our ways. Just because something appears to be unkind or disrespectful doesn’t mean there isn’t another side to the story, or better yet a greater purpose that we might not yet understand.
Before Jesus healed a man who was blind from birth, the disciples asked Him who sinned, the man or his parents. Jesus replied that “It was not that this man sinned, or his parents, but that the works of God might be manifest in him.” In other words, if the man had not been blind, Jesus would not have needed to heal Him, and the people would not have witnessed this miracle. (John 9:1-12)
I often pray during this mystery that if there is something or someone I am not understanding that God will open my eyes to see His purpose and His will being accomplished, not mine. And that I would trust Him more.
I try to remember that God’s ways are not our ways. Just because something appears to be unkind or disrespectful doesn’t mean there isn’t another side to the story, or better yet a greater purpose that we might not yet understand.
Before Jesus healed a man who was blind from birth, the disciples asked Him who sinned, the man or his parents. Jesus replied that “It was not that this man sinned, or his parents, but that the works of God might be manifest in him.” In other words, if the man had not been blind, Jesus would not have needed to heal Him, and the people would not have witnessed this miracle. (John 9:1-12)
I often pray during this mystery that if there is something or someone I am not understanding that God will open my eyes to see His purpose and His will being accomplished, not mine. And that I would trust Him more.
P
puzzleannie
Guest
these answers are all beautiful, insightful and inspiring, maybe we need a place just for meditation on mysteries of the rosary. Since they are scriptural in foundation, this is the place. I meditated on this mystery exclusively for several months when one of my teenagers was going through a terrible time and seemed lost to us. As a mother, my tendency is to personalize Mary’s experience and relate it to mine, but others here have helped me move beyond that orientation. Thank you.
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kayla
Guest
I agree with puzzleannie, I would love to see a forum place just for meditation and talking about the mysteries of the Rosary.
I just started to pray the Rosary after a very long time w/o it, so I’m almost starting over so to speak. it would be nice to hear what others thing about this.
I just started to pray the Rosary after a very long time w/o it, so I’m almost starting over so to speak. it would be nice to hear what others thing about this.
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serendipity
Guest
Thanks for that thought about Jesus being lost in the Temple as foresadowing the grief that Mary will experience during his death.
I’m afraid that my mediations on this mystery have never been that deep. The thought that has always struck me, since I was first introduced to it as a child, was the anxiety that Mary must have felt over losing God’s only son, in addition to the fear a experienced by guardian of a child, when the child goes missing and youu think the worst thoughts.
When I think of the mystery I usally think that the unease I feel from my current problems, as great as it might trouble me at the moment, can not nearly be as deep as that felt by Mary and Joseph, when they realise that they lost Jesus.
I’m afraid that my mediations on this mystery have never been that deep. The thought that has always struck me, since I was first introduced to it as a child, was the anxiety that Mary must have felt over losing God’s only son, in addition to the fear a experienced by guardian of a child, when the child goes missing and youu think the worst thoughts.
When I think of the mystery I usally think that the unease I feel from my current problems, as great as it might trouble me at the moment, can not nearly be as deep as that felt by Mary and Joseph, when they realise that they lost Jesus.
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