Rosary mystery bothers me!

[Count_Chocula]

mlchance:

Umm…no.

God is not the god of double standards. Morality is what it is because God’s nature is unchanging and the standards never waver.
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You missed the point of my post. I wasn’t saying that God sets double standards just that God techinically CANNOT sin because he sets his own rules sort of the way jokes never offend the person telling them. And if you take a gander at the OT he has this crazy double standard by telling us to NOT kill but every time the Israelites were bad he plagued them to death and stuff. Did it with Egyptians too w/o even being nice enough to tell them the rules and stuff.

Since he didn’t clarify the commandment given to Moses we’re left to assume it is indeed a double standard.

God does change indeed. Beleiving that God either doesn’t or cannot change isn’t true. Simply reading sripture and seeing the radical change in God’s mentality from OT’s “Fire and Brimstone and plagues oh my!” ideas to Jesus “Turn the other cheek” ideas show a basic contrast in God’s way of dealing with things as time progresses.

I will never understand why people don’t think God can change or make adjustments to his rules or whatever. He’s God he can do whatever he wants.

 

[RSiscoe]

Count Chocula:

You missed the point of my post. I wasn’t saying that God sets double standards just that God techinically CANNOT sin because he sets his own rules sort of the way jokes never offend the person telling them. And if you take a gander at the OT he has this crazy double standard by telling us to NOT kill but every time the Israelites were bad he plagued them to death and stuff. Did it with Egyptians too w/o even being nice enough to tell them the rules and stuff.

Since he didn’t clarify the commandment given to Moses we’re left to assume it is indeed a double standard.

God does change indeed. Beleiving that God either doesn’t or cannot change isn’t true. Simply reading sripture and seeing the radical change in God’s mentality from OT’s “Fire and Brimstone and plagues oh my!” ideas to Jesus “Turn the other cheek” ideas show a basic contrast in God’s way of dealing with things as time progresses.

I will never understand why people don’t think God can change or make adjustments to his rules or whatever. He’s God he can do whatever he wants.

When I read your first post, I thought you simply meant that God sets the rules. It sounded a little like you implied God could change, but I didn’t think you meant that.

God doesn’t change: It is simply not possible for a perfect being to change. “Change” would imply a defect in perfection. Either God was not perfect before, and therefore He changed; or He was completely perfect, and therefore He couldn’t change.

You mentioned a few “problems” that lead you to believe God has changed. For instance, God tells the Israelites not to kill, then sends a plague that kills them. Actually, God did not command them not to kill (killing for a just reason is OK), what He commanded them not to do is murder. Murder is different than killing. God allows killing in war, for example, or as a punishment for a crime (the death penalty). That is not a contradiction. Even common sense allows us to understand the difference: for example, let’s say someone came into your house, tied you up, began to torture you and said he was going to kill you. And let’s say that when he left the room, you were able to obtain a gun. When he came back in the room you shot him and killed him. That would not be wrong.

Regarding the plagues God sends: He sends them as a punishment for sins. God is a just God and He hates sin. Every sin deserves a punishment. Sending the plagues was an act of the infinite justice of God. Today we hear a lot about God’s mercy, and God is indeed very merciful. But He is also very just, and punishes sin severely, both in this life and in the next (purgatory and hell).

The Church teaches that “physical evil” - natural disasters, etc - are a punishment from God, for sin. This is simply an act of the justice of God; and God can take the life of whoever He wants.

 

[Count_Chocula]

RSiscoe:

When I read your first post, I thought you simply meant that God sets the rules. It sounded a little like you implied God could change, but I didn’t think you meant that.

God doesn’t change: It is simply not possible for a perfect being to change. “Change” would imply a defect in perfection. Either God was not perfect before, and therefore He changed; or He was completely perfect, and therefore He couldn’t change.

You mentioned a few “problems” that lead you to believe God has changed. For instance, God tells the Israelites not to kill, then sends a plague that kills them. Actually, God did not command them not to kill (killing for a just reason is OK), what He commanded them not to do is murder. Murder is different than killing. God allows killing in war, for example, or as a punishment for a crime (the death penalty). That is not a contradiction. Even common sense allows us to understand the difference: for example, let’s say someone came into your house, tied you up, began to torture you and said he was going to kill you. And let’s say that when he left the room, you were able to obtain a gun. When he came back in the room you shot him and killed him. That would not be wrong.

Regarding the plagues God sends: He sends them as a punishment for sins. God is a just God and He hates sin. Every sin deserves a punishment. Sending the plagues was an act of the infinite justice of God. Today we hear a lot about God’s mercy, and God is indeed very merciful. But He is also very just, and punishes sin severely, both in this life and in the next (purgatory and hell).

The Church teaches that “physical evil” - natural disasters, etc - are a punishment from God, for sin. This is simply an act of the justice of God; and God can take the life of whoever He wants.

Well if you want to start talking about God’s perfection… well, he made us. We were either imperfect, OR (and this is a huge OR) made us capable of being imperfect, either way we wound up imperfect which can be thought to mean that God lost his perfection status when he made us.

Right now you’re probably thinking something about “Oh he gave us free will and made us perfect and it was our choice to screw things up” which is avoiding the issue. But if you do read the Bible, or look thru the history books you’ll see TONS of examples where evil either goes unpunished by God -OR- even worse, where evil deeds actually lead to better fortune for those invovled (i.e. drug dealers making thousands) so God obviously at times is either not there or simply doesn’t care.

Or you can take the “Don’t ever hold God accountable” stance and say it’s part of God’s mysterious plan and that he punishes the wicked whenever he sees fit or however it fits into God’s plan. But I’m going off on a tangent now. So I’ll get back on track.

In the OT we see countless times when God violently punishes those for breaking his commandments, even so far as to burn cities and flood the planet… yet by NT times evil was running rampant and God sent Jesus to preach the good words etc. and to sacrifice himself for our evil (something that doesn’t fit well with the character of the OT God) in order to try and stop the evil. If God was so perfect and incapable of change, why not send more fire and brimstone to punish those who are evil?

Why doesn’t he punish all evil all the time? Inconsistancy is not the trait of a perfect NEVER changing being. However, accepting the fact that God can change and can do whatever he wants (including double standards and being outright unfair) is a really simple way to settle a grand majority of religious problems (such as why God supposedly hates children born out of wedlock but seems to have no problem making tons of healthy wedlock babies).

I hope this stuff doesn’t get me banned.

 

[kmmd]

Hey, Count, Your points are definitely worth talking about and I am sure a lot more people would have some insights for you. I think that you should start a new thread, maybe under “spirituality”, and make the title something about God’s perfection (or as you surmise, His “so called” perfection).

Anyway this thread is about one of the joyful mysteries so I am afraid that we are off track talking about it here.

I will be looking for your thread. If you have already asked the question somewhere, else, let me know

You can’t have your questions answered if you don’t ask them.

 

[RSiscoe]

Count Chocula:

Well if you want to start talking about God’s perfection… well, he made us. We were either imperfect, OR (and this is a huge OR) made us capable of being imperfect, either way we wound up imperfect which can be thought to mean that God lost his perfection status when he made us.

Right now you’re probably thinking something about “Oh he gave us free will and made us perfect and it was our choice to screw things up” which is avoiding the issue.

That is not what I was thinking. God actually DID create man perfect. Both Adam and Eve possessed a special gift called “original justice” which eliminated any rebellion of the lower nature against the higher nature. In the state of original justice, man’s passions and emotions perfectly obeyed his reason. In addition, God gave Adam and Eve infused knowledge, so that they did not need to learn anything. When God created man, everything was perfect, which is why even God said that the creation was “good”, and even “very good”.

The problem came about as a result of sin. Adam and Eve committed the only kind of sin they would have in their state - pride. That led to the loss of original justice. When man rose up against God, through pride, God removed original justice which caused man’s lower nature (passions and emotions) to “rise up” against his higher nature (reason). That is why we have the problems we do today.

But if you do read the Bible, or look thru the history books you’ll see TONS of examples where evil either goes unpunished by God -OR- even worse, where evil deeds actually lead to better fortune for those invovled (i.e. drug dealers making thousands) so God obviously at times is either not there or simply doesn’t care.

Nothing goes unpunished; and no good deed goes unrewarded. No person is so bad that they do not do any good; similarly, no person is so good that they do no bad. God is either going to reward the good in heaven or on earth; and punish the bad in this life, or the next.

This explains why so many bad people seem to get rewarded: since even they do some good, God rewards them here, since there will be no reward for them in the next life. On the other hand, many good people suffer in this life, but will be rewarded in the next.

In the OT we see countless times when God violently punishes those for breaking his commandments, even so far as to burn cities and flood the planet… yet by NT times evil was running rampant and God sent Jesus to preach the good words etc. and to sacrifice himself for our evil (something that doesn’t fit well with the character of the OT God) in order to try and stop the evil. If God was so perfect and incapable of change, why not send more fire and brimstone to punish those who are evil?

God did not send Jesus to stop the evil. He sent him to die so that sins could be forgiven.

Why doesn’t he punish all evil all the time? Inconsistancy is not the trait of a perfect NEVER changing being.

Just because you do not see the evil punished, does not mean that it goes unpunished.

However, accepting the fact that God can change and can do whatever he wants (including double standards and being outright unfair) is a really simple way to settle a grand majority of religious problems (such as why God supposedly hates children born out of wedlock but seems to have no problem making tons of healthy wedlock babies).

There is an explanation for all of the “problems” you mentioned. This post had too many different things for me to address. Send another post with just one “problem” at a time, and I will do my best to address it.