Rosary prayers

[ronald]

Two weeks ago a house in which rosary prayers was being held by a family and other catholics nearby suddenly stopped by Front Pembela Islam or Islam Defender Front. They treatened the host that the house would be burnt if they didn’t stop the prayers. They Did it while saying Allah hu akbar!!! and Stop Christianizing!!! It also happened to my cousin’s house 4 years ago. The prayers didn’t distrub the neighbour at all. Why did they do that? The muslims had the same thing in their houses that in Indonesian we say ‘pengajian’. They read Qur’an in ‘pengajian’ ( sometimes with loud speaker heard until about 20 meters from the house) and after ‘pengajian’ usually there is a preaching by an ustaz( male preacher) or ustazah(female preacher) sometimes with loud speaker also. Sometimes there is also a banner saying "we…the muslims of ( a name of a city) disagree the development of ( a name of a church). I’m sure there is only few muslims in Indonesia like them(but growing). Because i have many nice muslim friends here in indonesia. I’m just thinking if things like this ones happen in the most liberal populous muslim country, things in countries like arab, afganistan, libya, Sudan and alike are much worse. There have hundreds of church been burnt, bomed, damaged since 1996 and some had difficulties to have a permission from local govt. to build the church including my church. May God forgive us all…Amen.

 

[Booklover]

ronald:

Two weeks ago a house in which rosary prayers was being held by a family and other catholics nearby suddenly stopped by Front Pembela Islam or Islam Defender Front. They treatened the host that the house would be burnt if they didn’t stop the prayers. They Did it while saying Allah hu akbar!!! and Stop Christianizing!!! It also happened to my cousin’s house 4 years ago. The prayers didn’t distrub the neighbour at all. Why did they do that? The muslims had the same thing in their houses that in Indonesian we say ‘pengajian’. They read Qur’an in ‘pengajian’ ( sometimes with loud speaker heard until about 20 meters from the house) and after ‘pengajian’ usually there is a preaching by an ustaz( male preacher) or ustazah(female preacher) sometimes with loud speaker also. Sometimes there is also a banner saying "we…the muslims of ( a name of a city) disagree the development of ( a name of a church). I’m sure there is only few muslims in Indonesia like them(but growing). Because i have many nice muslim friends here in indonesia. I’m just thinking if things like this ones happen in the most liberal populous muslim country, things in countries like arab, afganistan, libya, Sudan and alike are much worse. There have hundreds of church been burnt, bomed, damaged since 1996 and some had difficulties to have a permission from local govt. to build the church including my church. May God forgive us all…Amen.

And Muslims keep telling us that there is no compulsion of religion in Muslim countries! Here is more proof of the “intolerance” of Islam!

 

[MugenOne]

Instead of stepping forward, they’re stepping backward. Indonesia used to be one of the fastest growing economy in world. It’s a shame of what happened to Indonesia. First, they blamed and drove the Chinese out. Now, they’re driving business away with their extremism.

My question to American Muslim converts in this forum: Do you condone this kind of religious extremism? Everytime someone posts something like this, you guys tend to shy away from answering the question.

atimes.com/atimes/Southe…a/GJ27Ae02.html

 

[Edris]

We don’t shy away from answering such claims. But whenever i read such accusations of Islam, i feel bad for you not for Islam.

Without going far from Indonesia,  do you want me to narrate the stories about crimes and atrocities being committed by Catholics in east timor (where they are the majority) against Muslims and even Protestant.  The attacks on mosques!.

And they escaped justice, and yet worse many catholics try to cover it up.

When discussing crimes against humanity and against other religions, the last people who should speak out are the catholics.

The millions of christians in Egypt, Syrian, Lebanon, Iraq, Turkey, etc… are a clear proof that there is no compulsion in Islam and that Islam is a very tolerant religion. Haven’t been so, Muslims could’ve wiped out those christians anytime throughout history.

“There is no compulsion in religion Verily, the Right Path has become distinct from the wrong path Whoever disbelieves in Tâghût and believes in Allâh, then he has grasped the most trustworthy handhold that will never break And Allâh is All-Hearer, All-Knower” (Qur’an 2:256)

Get me a similar verse from the Bible!!. Please remove the plank from your eyes. This is what your loving God says:

[Luke 19:27] Jesus says “But these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slay them in my presence”

Peace

 

[jcaz]

Originally posted by Booklover
And Muslims keep telling us that there is no compulsion of religion in Muslim countries! Here is more proof of the “intolerance” of Islam!

Booklover,

When reading your posts, the Muslim reader is surely inclined towards anger, as you constantly show one of two things:

(1) Either you make such statements just to irritate people.

(2) Or you really do not think about what you are saying.

Here’s this exact same thread from another view:

Catholic: The Catholic Faith does not allow priests to molest children.
Some Randome Muslim Poster:
I read in my local paper yet another story of a priest molesting a child. (And they give all the details thereof)
Some other Random Muslim Poster:
And Catholics keep telling us that priest sexually molesting kids is not allowed! Here is more proof of the perversion of Catholicism!

I mean, work with me, do you not see how this thought-process is devoid of all logic and intellect. How is the actions of one priest, or even if it were thousands of priest, representative of the true teachings of Catholicism? Can we not tell the difference, and learn to separate individual actions, as we are all deficient, from the teachings of a religion? Do you not see?

Booklover, I really want to come to these forums and “help out” by trying, sincerely, to answer any questions that people may have. And in doing so, it is important to realize who is serious with their questions and who wants to cause trouble.

If you do have ideas regarding Islaam that are incorrect, many of the Muslim members would be happy to answer your questions and try to correct any misconceptions.

But do you want this? Or do you want to just think what you think, wrong or right, and be done with it?

Thank you.

Regards,
jcaz

 

[Booklover]

Edris:

Jesus says “But these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slay them in my presence”

Peace

Talk about taking things out of context! That quote you just mentioned is taken from the parable of the Gold Coins and those are the words of the king in the story!

 

[JimG]

I don’t find that in Luke 19:27 ??

 

[Booklover]

JimG:

I don’t find that in Luke 19:27 ??

Jim, it is there! It’s The Parable of the Gold Coins, and it’s the last sentence in the story.

 

[Rachel_Malloy]

"27 But as for those my enemies, who would not have me reign over them, bring them hither, and kill them before me."

drbo.org/chapter/49019.htm

You can look it up here.

 

[Booklover]

jcaz:

Booklover,

When reading your posts, the Muslim reader is surely inclined towards anger, as you constantly show one of two things:

(1) Either you make such statements just to irritate people.

(2) Or you really do not think about what you are saying.

Here’s this exact same thread from another view:

I mean, work with me, do you not see how this thought-process is devoid of all logic and intellect. How is the actions of one priest, or even if it were thousands of priest, representative of the true teachings of Catholicism? Can we not tell the difference, and learn to separate individual actions, as we are all deficient, from the teachings of a religion? Do you not see?

Booklover, I really want to come to these forums and “help out” by trying, sincerely, to answer any questions that people may have. And in doing so, it is important to realize who is serious with their questions and who wants to cause trouble.

If you do have ideas regarding Islaam that are incorrect, many of the Muslim members would be happy to answer your questions and try to correct any misconceptions.

But do you want this? Or do you want to just think what you think, wrong or right, and be done with it?

Thank you.

Regards,
jcaz

Let me ask you a question? Do you think that those people should not be allowed to pray the rosary in their own homes? What is your opinion of that?..

How would you feel if Muslims were told in this country that they could not say their prayers 5 times a day? Would you not be outraged?

For once, I just want a straight answer to a simple question!

 

[Booklover]

Edris:

We don’t shy away from answering such claims. But whenever i read such accusations of Islam, i feel bad for you not for Islam.

Without going far from Indonesia, do you want me to narrate the stories about crimes and atrocities being committed by Catholics in east timor (where they are the majority) against Muslims and even Protestant. The attacks on mosques!.

And they escaped justice, and yet worse many catholics try to cover it up.

Peace

Edris, where are the links to these atrocities you talk about. I’ve read articles about East Timor, and they’re very different from what you’re saying.

Here’s a short excerpt from an article in Crisis magazine pertaining to the invasion of East Timor by the Indonesians!

“East Timor’s liberation was indeed a victory of faith—one in which the Catholic Church played a crucial part. After 400 years as a Portuguese colony, the prospect of freedom appeared fleetingly in 1975 when Portugal withdrew from the tiny half-island. East Timor quickly declared independence, but freedom was snatched away when, just a few days later, Indonesia invaded. In the brutal 24-year occupation that followed, a quarter of the population died. Many were shot by the Indonesian military, or tortured to death, while others died of starvation and disease.”

Please provide the links for your accusations.

 

[jcaz]

Booklover:

Let me ask you a question? Do you think that those people should not be allowed to pray the rosary in their own homes? What is your opinion of that?..

Of course, according to Islaam, they should be free to worship in their home how they wish.

Booklover:

How would you feel if Muslims were told in this country that they could not say their prayers 5 times a day? Would you not be outraged?

Muslims would be upset. Yes, I would be outraged.

Booklover:

For once, I just want a straight answer to a simple question!

You always get straight answers to your questions, yet you did not answer any of mine.

Please re-read my post and respond at your convenience.

Regards,
jcaz

 

[JimG]

Booklover:

Jim, it is there! It’s The Parable of the Gold Coins, and it’s the last sentence in the story.

OK, thanks; I must have been looking in the wrong place.

 

[MugenOne]

Edris mate,

I was in East Timor helping out with the humanitarian situation couple years ago. There was no Catholic violent toward the Muslims, but it was the other way around. The militias backed by the Indonesian military (yes, Indonesian are Muslims) went on a rampage killing villagers and cutting their heads off. Many were impelled on sticks.

cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/tt.html

East Timor declared itself independent from Portugal on 28 November 1975 and was invaded and occupied by Indonesian forces nine days later. It was incorporated into Indonesia in July 1976 as the province of East Timor. An unsuccessful campaign of pacification followed over the next two decades, during which an estimated 100,000 to 250,000 individuals lost their lives. On 30 August 1999, in a UN-supervised popular referendum, an overwhelming majority of the people of East Timor voted for independence from Indonesia. Between the referendum and the arrival of a multinational peacekeeping force in late September 1999, anti-independence Timorese militias - organized and supported by the Indonesian military - commenced a large-scale, scorched-earth campaign of retribution. The militias killed approximately 1,300 Timorese and forcibly pushed 300,000 people into West Timor as refugees. The majority of the country’s infrastructure, including homes, irrigation systems, water supply systems, and schools, and nearly 100% of the country’s electrical grid were destroyed. On 20 September 1999 the Australian-led peacekeeping troops of the International Force for East Timor (INTERFET) deployed to the country and brought the violence to an end. On 20 May 2002, East Timor was internationally recognized as an independent state.

 

[JimG]

MugenOne:

East Timor declared itself independent from Portugal on 28 November 1975 and was invaded and occupied by Indonesian forces nine days later.

Unfortunately, the U.S. government may have been a factor in allowing this to happen. President Ford and adviser Henry Kissinger appear to have given Indonesian President Suharto a ‘green light’ indicating that the U.S. would not object to the takeover. Apparently they were afraid that a Timorese government might turn out to be “leftist” which in 1975, just months after Vietnam, was still a big worry.

 

[Edris]

East Timor

International Religious Freedom Report 2004
Released by the Bureau of Democracy, Human Rights, and Labor

“Some Muslim groups at times have been victims of harassment…….In late 2003, small groups of Catholic youths repeatedly stoned the mosque in Los Palos and harassed and intimidated the small local Muslim population………At times **non-**Catholic Christian groups also have been harassed. While there were no further attacks on Protestant churches such as those that occurred in June 2000 in Aileu district, there were credible allegations of harassment, occasionally including violent attacks, against members of Protestant denominations in the areas of Baucau, Los Palos, Ainaro, and Liquica. According to Protestant leaders, individuals converting from Catholicism to Protestantism often were subject to harassment by family members and neighbors, and in some cases, clergy and missionaries have been threatened or assaulted. In several instances, village leaders have refused to allow missionaries to proselytize in their villages, and in at least one case a Protestant group was unable to build a chapel because of stiff opposition from neighbors and local officials………One case reported in 2002 involved attacks in the Liquica area on a Brazilian Protestant evangelist and local residents whom he had converted from Catholicism to Protestantism. While the authorities have investigated, no arrests have been made and petty harassment has continued.”

state.gov/g/drl/rls/irf/2004/35397.htm

“DILI, East Timor (CNS) – An East Timorese bishop has apologized to the country’s Muslim community for the involvement of Catholics in an early December attack on a mosque.”

etan.org/et2003/january/01-04/00cns.htm

“DILI, East Timor , June 16 –
Religious violence erupted last week in East Timor, with Catholic youths burning three Protestant churches and attacking a Protestant pastor, a U.N. spokeswoman said Friday.” etan.org/et2000b/june/11-17/16cathol.htm

“Though 21 Mosques which are burnt in September riot in 1995 is not
fixed yet, because of East Timor Governor Abilio Soares and Human Rights Nobel Prize winner Bishop Belo forbid the reconstruction, more mosques are burnt again in East Timor.
On July 1996, several mosques and religion school are burnt. On the
next month, one mosque is burnt in Baucau, and on Chrismast 1996, mosque Al Istiqamah is burnt in Kaiwati Village, Viqueque. An East Timor Muslim delegation report that to Muslim leader in Jakarta.
After the mosque burning, 70 East Timor Muslim flee to Base Camp Ossu (a military camp). They do not dare to come out, because the
fundamentalist Catholics are searching treespasser’s ID and torture them if they are not Catholics.” (Media Dakwah Magazine February 1997)

You keep hiding behind what the indonesian government did to east temorese (catholics),    what about the muslims that were killed in Bande Aceh by this same government.    The catholics and the muslims both had influence on the Indonesian government,  not to mention the outside manipulations from the US.   The catholics played it dirty using their leverage to attain independence  and at the same time attacking the minority of muslims and protestants in east timor........at the end it turned against them.   And the muslims too where not spared.

But the Question is: why does the catholics attack the protestant there?

 

[ronald]

Edris:

We don’t shy away from answering such claims. But whenever i read such accusations of Islam, i feel bad for you not for Islam.

Without going far from Indonesia, do you want me to narrate the stories about crimes and atrocities being committed by Catholics in east timor (where they are the majority) against Muslims and even Protestant. The attacks on mosques!.

And they escaped justice, and yet worse many catholics try to cover it up.

When discussing crimes against humanity and against other religions, the last people who should speak out are the catholics.

The millions of christians in Egypt, Syrian, Lebanon, Iraq, Turkey, etc… are a clear proof that there is no compulsion in Islam and that Islam is a very tolerant religion. Haven’t been so, Muslims could’ve wiped out those christians anytime throughout history.

“There is no compulsion in religion Verily, the Right Path has become distinct from the wrong path Whoever disbelieves in Tâghût and believes in Allâh, then he has grasped the most trustworthy handhold that will never break And Allâh is All-Hearer, All-Knower” (Qur’an 2:256)

Get me a similar verse from the Bible!!. Please remove the plank from your eyes. This is what your loving God says:

[Luke 19:27] Jesus says “But these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slay them in my presence”

Peace

Edris,

You don’t have to feel bad for me nor to Islam, just feel bad to your Islam friends who stopped the prayer. They think they will go to heaven but absolutely not if they don’t stop their actions. If there is only muslims like you in my country maybe there will be no such things. However, there are some bad fundamentalists and it’s growing. I feel bad for those who did the same thing in East Timor and honestly i feel embarrased. Ok, no compulsion in Islam but factually there are many of the muslims here who don’t like the growing of The Christians. There are also millions of christian here, about 30 millions ( i know from Metro tv Indonesia) but still, there are many discrimination done by people and local government. Peace

 

[Booklover]

jcaz:

Booklover,

IHow is the actions of one priest, or even if it were thousands of priest, representative of the true teachings of Catholicism? Can we not tell the difference, and learn to separate individual actions, as we are all deficient, from the teachings of a religion? Do you not see?

Booklover, I really want to come to these forums and “help out” by trying, sincerely, to answer any questions that people may have. And in doing so, it is important to realize who is serious with their questions and who wants to cause trouble.

If you do have ideas regarding Islaam that are incorrect, many of the Muslim members would be happy to answer your questions and try to correct any misconceptions.

But do you want this? Or do you want to just think what you think, wrong or right, and be done with it?

Thank you.

Regards,
jcaz

The priest sex abuse scandals are a terrible thing. Not only did those priests give the Church a bad name by their actions, but they betrayed their vows and the people they served and caused much suffering.

Jonathan, you claim that a religion should not be judged by the actions of individuals, but by its teachings. That is true as far as it goes, but I have not seen anything in the teachings of Islam to make me feel that it’s a religion of peace or tolerance. There are just too many statements advocating violence against other people. Is there anything in the Quran about loving your neighbor as yourself, or loving your enemies, or doing good to those who persecute you? All I’ve seen are things like: Don’t make friends of Jews and Christians, slay the unbeliever wherever you find them and so on. And there are just too many Muslims using those statements to justify atrocities committed against others…

You said again that there’s no compulsion in religion, but that comes with strings attached. Infidels have to pay a tax and accept 2nd class status if they want to practice their faith. A Muslim cannot leave Islam without been persecuted and maybe paying with his life. Is that freedom of religion? You even stated in one post that you thought that Islam should be spread by war if necessary. I don’t believe that anyone should be coerced into accepting something they don’t believe in.

Hope this helps.

Vickie

 

[jcaz]

Booklover:

Jonathan, you claim that a religion should not be judged by the actions of individuals, but by its teachings. That is true as far as it goes

Good, then this is where we stop. The only reason I began posting on this thread was your original comment in reply to the original post:

Booklover:

And Muslims keep telling us that there is no compulsion of religion in Muslim countries! Here is more proof of the “intolerance” of Islam!

I then explained that this thought-process is exactly like the following example:

Catholic: The Catholic Faith does not allow priests to molest children.
Some Randome Muslim Poster: I read in my local paper yet another story of a priest molesting a child. (And they give all the details thereof)
Some other Random Muslim Poster: And Catholics keep telling us that priest sexually molesting kids is not allowed! Here is more proof of the perversion of Catholicism!

Lastly, I tried to see if you recognized that this thought-process was devoid of all logic.

jcaz:

I mean, work with me, do you not see how this thought-process is devoid of all logic and intellect. How is the actions of one priest, or even if it were thousands of priest, representative of the true teachings of Catholicism? Can we not tell the difference, and learn to separate individual actions, as we are all deficient, from the teachings of a religion? Do you not see?

My only goal was to see if you realize the flaw in your original reply to the post, as you keep making similar comments, which is EXACTLY like the example given above. So if you understand this, then great.

Regards,
Jonathan

 

[jcaz]

Booklover:

but I have not seen anything in the teachings of Islam to make me feel that it’s a religion of peace or tolerance

Sure you haven’t. Because you choose to “understand” Islaam through the filter of answering-islam.com or allmuslimsareterrorists.com or other such retarded websites. Surely, if you conciously choose to avoid reading about Islaam from proper sources, one can logically conclude that they will not get accurate information.

There have been posts after posts after posts from Muslims users quoting verses upon verses and hadeeth upon hadeeth about the tolerance tought in Islaam and the peace and the kindness taught in Islaam.

Booklover:

Is there anything in the Quran about loving your neighbor as yourself.

Prophet Muhammad, sallallaahu 'alayhe wa sallama, said, “The slave does not believe until he loves for his neighbor and his brother what he loves for himself.”

Booklover:

or loving your enemies

No, there is not anything on loving your enemies, as this is not even logical, and frankly, I do not accept it as part of the teachings of Jesus, peace be upon him. Nor does Islaam teach that God loves everyone. It is sad, but as a Catholic, I was even raised believing that we should not even hate Satan. We should love everyone.

God loves those who believe and do righteous deeds. He wants to love us and wants to help us. But he does not love those who turn away from His mercy and from His grace. He does not love those who turn away from worshipping Him alone without partner.

This is a difference of belief, and I do not comprehend the Christian believe that “God is Love” and “God loves everyone.”

Booklover:

slay the unbeliever wherever you find them and so on.

I cannot even count how many times this verse has been explained to you.

And there are just too many Muslims using those statements to justify atrocities committed against others.

So what? I mean, haven’t we pounded to death the concept of judging a religion by its teachings and not by the ignorant people who purposely try to misinterpret its texts?

“And there are just too many priests who commit lewd acts with young boys. Catholicism is simply a perverted religion.”

Any person who says a comment like that is downright stupid. And you would surely agree. So how can you then not agree and understand when it comes to such comments against Islaam.

Jonathan