Roundtable discussion on what being "in communion" means

[Alexander_Roman]

Actually, ciero, based on what I’ve read of your posts so far, both in this thread and others, I think Union has a good point. You describe yourself as “orthodox in communion with Rome”, yet you reject much of what Rome teaches.

Now, I am not saying you’re right or wrong to do that. However, it does make one wonder why you feel it’s necessary to be “orthodox in communion with Rome” (a description which the Orthodox themselves find rather amusing, from what I’ve read ).

Dear Theistgal (were you ever on the Byzantine Forum?),

Good point - to be in “communion with Rome” is the same, to the Orthodox, as being heretical while insisting that one is not . . .

On the other hand, EC’s have always used “Orthodox Christians” in their Liturgy and it is not, nor should be, a foreign term for either EC’s or RC’s.

The Oriental Orthodox keep to that title. If we Catholics are serious (and we are) about having continuity with the first millennium of the Church, then we are all “Orthodox” in faith, belonging to the “Catholic” Church.

“Orthodox Catholic Christian” describes all of us then.

Alex

 

[ciero]

Actually, ciero, based on what I’ve read of your posts so far, both in this thread and others, I think Union has a good point. You describe yourself as “orthodox in communion with Rome”, yet you reject much of what Rome teaches.

Now, I am not saying you’re right or wrong to do that. However, it does make one wonder why you feel it’s necessary to be “orthodox in communion with Rome” (a description which the Orthodox themselves find rather amusing, from what I’ve read ).

As far as I see it…it is important to be in communion with the bishop of Rome…not to be dominated by him or to be ruled by him…but to be in communion with him. Our churches have their own Patriarchs, bishops and synods to do the ruling, we don’t need Rome to do that. We’re not little kids ya know.

 

[malphono]

As far as I see it…it is important to be in communion with the bishop of Rome…not to be dominated by him or to be ruled by him…but to be in communion with him. Our churches have their own Patriarchs, bishops and synods to do the ruling, we don’t need Rome to do that. We’re not little kids ya know.

I don’t, of course, disagree, but it seems to me that the entire concept of “being in communion” is something rather alien to the Latin mindset. To them, we (all the East and Orient) are indeed little kids who need to be minded lest we go off and get into some mischief. One very visible piece of evidence of that is the continued existence of that so-called Oriental Congregation (which, as Alex says, is well past it’s “best before” date). Another is the CCEO.

Perhaps it all stems from the ultramontanist overtones of Vatican I (which, despite contentions to the contrary) are also reflected in Vatican II. To that mindset, it is Rome’s right and even her duty to rule and control. Within that mindset, the very idea of what was the First Millennium reality is inconceivable.

 

[theistgal]

Is it possible to be in communion with people who don’t want to be in communion with you?

 

[ConstantineTG]

Is it possible to be in communion with people who don’t want to be in communion with you?

No. Communion is a two-way thing. Its like marriage. Both parties have to agree. I mean, the Roman Catholic Women Priests want to be in communion with the Pope. And thats all there is to it.

 

[Formosus]

Is it possible to be in communion with people who don’t want to be in communion with you?

Well it has happened in the past. There are many examples of one church (say in this example, Rome) excommunicating another (say the North African synod). And while Rome and N.Africa were out of communion with each other, they were both in communion with the Churches of the East. So in a way they were in communion despite the fact they did not want to be.

 

[mardukm]

As far as I see it…it is important to be in communion with the bishop of Rome…not to be dominated by him or to be ruled by him…but to be in communion with him. Our churches have their own Patriarchs, bishops and synods to do the ruling, we don’t need Rome to do that. We’re not little kids ya know.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[mardukm]

I don’t, of course, disagree, but it seems to me that the entire concept of “being in communion” is something rather alien to the Latin mindset.

I can agree with this. But I think this is an attitude - as you say - “from the ground.” It is not the Magisterial position of the Catholic Church (praise God!).

To many of them

That’s my own personal perspective.

we (all the East and Orient) are indeed little kids who need to be minded lest we go off and get into some mischief.

I think most are just ignorant of us, and we have had many Latins come here to the ECF and expressed genuine interest in and concern for us when they have discovered that we exist. However, I can agree that your comment, nevertheless, still (unfortunately) applies to many Latins.

One very visible piece of evidence of that is the continued existence of that so-called Oriental Congregation (which, as Alex says, is well past it’s “best before” date).

The only problem I have with the Oriental Congregation (and the Curia in general) is the fact that they have legislative and juridical jurisdiction in our Churches. It is a huge problem because it is administered by bishops who don’t have the same awareness, appreciation nor responsibility for the universality of the Church as the bishop of Rome. They should be limited to a merely consultative/advisory role in our Churches. The Pope should not be involved in our Churches through the Curia, but through the formal Synodal apparatus that was re-established by V2.

Another is the CCEO.

Disagreed. Though in a re-united Church, several of the provisions in relation to the bishop of Rome needs to be excised.

Perhaps it all stems from the ultramontanist overtones of Vatican I (which, despite contentions to the contrary) are also reflected in Vatican II. To that mindset, it is Rome’s right and even her duty to rule and control. Within that mindset, the very idea of what was the First Millennium reality is inconceivable.

It might be expected from V1, but I certainly agree with you that it is a marvelous shame that Absolutist Petrine advocates can even pretend to garner any kind of support for their position from V2.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[ciero]

Is it possible to be in communion with people who don’t want to be in communion with you?

Are you suggesting that we just give up our own traditions and spirituality for Latin tradition and Spirituality? Maybe just keep the funny mass, as to have a little semblance of being Byzantine?

 

[Alexander_Roman]

Are you suggesting that we just give up our own traditions and spirituality for Latin tradition and Spirituality? Maybe just keep the funny mass, as to have a little semblance of being Byzantine?

We are “Orthodox” in every which way, except that we are in communion with Rome. Eastern Catholics have been “Orthodox in communion with Rome” for 2,000 years and counting.

Alex

 

[hazcompat]

We are “Orthodox” in every which way, except that we are in communion with Rome. Eastern Catholics have been “Orthodox in communion with Rome” for 2,000 years and counting.

Alex

WE ARE ONE!

peace

 

[Alexander_Roman]

WE ARE ONE!

peace

As long as you are in communion with Rome . . .

Our former parish priest (Rev. Fr. Dr Bohdan Lypsky +memory eternal!) put it this way: “All Catholics are united in one Faith and Communion. After that, Eastern Catholics differ in every which way from Latin Catholics . . .”

Alex

 

[hazcompat]

As long as you are in communion with Rome . . .

Our former parish priest (Rev. Fr. Dr Bohdan Lypsky +memory eternal!) put it this way: “All Catholics are united in one Faith and Communion. After that, Eastern Catholics differ in every which way from Latin Catholics . . .”

Alex

and the differences are cause for joy, not cognitive dissonance.

peace

 

[theistgal]

Are you suggesting that we just give up our own traditions and spirituality for Latin tradition and Spirituality? Maybe just keep the funny mass, as to have a little semblance of being Byzantine?

No, I’m suggesting that being fully Orthodox precludes being “in communion with Rome”, at least at the present time. And if you spend any time on Orthodox fora, you’d learn that fairly quickly.

Call our church “orthodox lite” if you must, but I have no illusions that is Orthodox in the sense that the Orthodox themselves define it.

 

[ciero]

No, I’m suggesting that being fully Orthodox precludes being “in communion with Rome”, at least at the present time. And if you spend any time on Orthodox fora, you’d learn that fairly quickly.

Call our church “orthodox lite” if you must, but I have no illusions that is Orthodox in the sense that the Orthodox themselves define it.

If your happy to settle for Orthodox lite…then bully for you! I am not.

My experience dealing with Orthodox folks both lay and clergy has been different then yours…MOST are very encouraging and hopeful for the return of communion with the Catholic church. I do tend to avoid the Orthodox fora you speak about because they tend to be full of rabid anti catholic CONVERTS to Orthodoxy, bringing their anti catholic attitudes from their Protestant roots. I deal with a large number of Orthodox folks throughout the Orthodox world and travel quite a bit (slowing down now due to age). I have been invited to receive the sacraments in Orthodox churches in Russia, Greece, Romania, Serbia, Ukraine and throughout the Middle East, and to speak on Catholic Orthodox relations in a LARGE number of Orthodox churches in these places as well.

Most of the Orthodox I have spoken to (cradle Orthodox in Orthodox countries) see the Catholic Church as Orthodox, but not in communion due to political issues.

I try not to base my attitude on what goes on here in the US as it has not been indicative to Orthodox attitudes worldwide.

Just my .02 cents.

 

[Alexander_Roman]

You never cease to impress or amaze, Ciero!

Alex

 

[Formosus]

If your happy to settle for Orthodox lite…then bully for you! I am not.

…

Most of the Orthodox I have spoken to (cradle Orthodox in Orthodox countries) see the Catholic Church as Orthodox, but not in communion due to political issues.
…

Once when I was attending a Greek festival, a Greek Orthodox priest asked me if I was Orthodox to which I replied that I was a Ukrainian Catholic. He gave a small chuckle and replied “Close enough.” .

I agree, I am not happy with settling for Orthodox lite and I do not think I need to leave communion with Rome to live an Orthodox Christian life.

 

[Alexander_Roman]

While in Greece on my honeymoon, I met a Greek Orthodox priest whose hand I kissed. He asked me if I was “Orthodoxis?”

I made the (silly) mistake of saying, “I’m Orthodox in union with Rome.”

The priest exploded at me, saying "Uniates are not Orthodox!! )

The tour guide, Eleutherios (may God always protect him!) came up and told the priest, in Greek, that I was Ukrainian Catholic.

The priest immediately smiled and said, “Your leader is Joseph Slipyj?” When I said, “Yes he is,” the priest was OK with that and gave me an icon card which I also kissed.

I still have that card in my icon corner.

Alex

 

[Cristiano]

While in Greece on my honeymoon, I met a Greek Orthodox priest whose hand I kissed. He asked me if I was “Orthodoxis?”

I made the (silly) mistake of saying, “I’m Orthodox in union with Rome.”

The priest exploded at me, saying "Uniates are not Orthodox!! )

The tour guide, Eleutherios (may God always protect him!) came up and told the priest, in Greek, that I was Ukrainian Catholic.

The priest immediately smiled and said, “Your leader is Joseph Slipyj?” When I said, “Yes he is,” the priest was OK with that and gave me an icon card which I also kissed.

I still have that card in my icon corner.

Alex

I think that his reaction was not pastoral at all. He should have kept silent considering that you were recognizing his status as a priest and not that you were asking for recognition as an orthodox.

BTW that must have happened a very long time ago.

 

[Phillip_Rolfes]

If your happy to settle for Orthodox lite…then bully for you! I am not.

My experience dealing with Orthodox folks both lay and clergy has been different then yours…MOST are very encouraging and hopeful for the return of communion with the Catholic church. I do tend to avoid the Orthodox fora you speak about because they tend to be full of rabid anti catholic CONVERTS to Orthodoxy, bringing their anti catholic attitudes from their Protestant roots. I deal with a large number of Orthodox folks throughout the Orthodox world and travel quite a bit (slowing down now due to age). I have been invited to receive the sacraments in Orthodox churches in Russia, Greece, Romania, Serbia, Ukraine and throughout the Middle East, and to speak on Catholic Orthodox relations in a LARGE number of Orthodox churches in these places as well.

Most of the Orthodox I have spoken to (cradle Orthodox in Orthodox countries) see the Catholic Church as Orthodox, but not in communion due to political issues.

I try not to base my attitude on what goes on here in the US as it has not been indicative to Orthodox attitudes worldwide.

Just my .02 cents.

Ciero, this is truly amazing. You should start a thread on some of your experiences in Orthodox countries and talks you’ve given in Orthodox parishes.

I too tend not to base my opinion of Orthodoxy on my experiences of Orthodox here in the U.S. Although I’ve never been in a traditionally Orthodox country, I’ve read that the lines of division between Orthodox and Catholic are much more blurred than they are here, and there is a much greater tendency to inter-marriage and inter-communion. From what I understand, much of the Orthodox attitude towards Catholicism in this country stems from Protestants who discovered Apostolic Christianity but wanted to maintain their anti-Catholic biased. One MAJOR exception is our brother, Don Cointin, who is making genuine efforts to understand Catholicism. He never ceases to amaze me.