Roundtable discussion on what being "in communion" means

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Not sure what the point of the list is, but it only names about 2/3 of the Churches in the Catholic Communion ( :hmmm: 60.869565217391304347826086956522% of them, to be precise)
from my notes old list! These are in communion I had a list of those in partial communion
 
I agree though that in places where the Orthodox are small in number and even new, they tend to be a bit hostile and overly defensive especially against Roman Catholics. Its true in the Philippines where I see some of the Orthodox converts be overly defensive to the point of proselytizing Catholics.
 
from my notes old list! These are in communion I had a list of those in partial communion
As I said, the list only names 60% of those in communion. Since the last date that a new Eastern or Oriental Church was formed after entering into communion with Rome was 20 September 1930 (and there is no such thing as being in “partial communion”), that must be a very old set of notes.

I’m too lazy to list them because there’s already a list here of the 23 Churches that, together, constitute the Catholic Communion. Check out the Reference Thread stickie at the top of the forum. It has a link to a thread called Rites and Churches (or vice-versa); the 23 are listed there.

The only 2 changes that I would offer to it is that: (1) for all intents and practical purposes, the Georgian Byzantine Church is extinct; and, (2) the Vatican Yearbook has started listing the Byzntine Macedonian jurisdiction separately from the Croatian one with which it used to be listed. That somewhat suggests that the Macedonian Byzantines may soon be denoted as a sui iuris Church.

Some are of the opinion that, prior to the creation of Yugoslavia as a country (or federation of countries, however one chooses to term it), the Macedonians did constitute a distinct Church (or Rite, as it would have been incorrectly termed back then).
 
Dear brother Diakonia,

Question about the Macedonian Catholics. When HH JP2 of thrice-blessed memory was still reigning, I had read about a very large group of Macedonian Orthodox wanting to join the Catholic communion because of jurisdictional disputes in the EOC. However, IIRC, they were told by Vatican officials that in the interests of corporate reunion with the EO, they should basically “clean up house” first.

I never kept up with the matter after that.

Are the Macedonian Catholics of which you write the same group that requested communion with the Catholic Church those many years ago?

Blessings,
Marduk
 
Question about the Macedonian Catholics. When HH JP2 of thrice-blessed memory was still reigning, I had read about a very large group of Macedonian Orthodox wanting to join the Catholic communion because of jurisdictional disputes in the EOC. However, IIRC, they were told by Vatican officials that in the interests of corporate reunion with the EO, they should basically “clean up house” first.
The Macedonian Orthodox Church was originally granted autonomy by the Serbian Orthodox Church in the late 50s (I think that’s about right) . About 10 years later, the Macedonians sought autocephaly under the Archbishop of Ohrid, a particularly ancient and venerable See. The Serbian Orthodox refused to grant it and, since that time, the Macedonians have been separated from communion with the canonical Orthodox Churches, which have stood fast behind the Serbian Church.

Although I don’t remember the full particulars, I believe that the overture was made not by the Archbishopric itself, but by a subordinate jurisdiction - of what size I can’t recall, if it was ever even public knowledge. I strongly suspect that what initially became publicly known of the whole matter was a result of leaks by persons in Rome who were sure it would happen and thought it would make great press - a corporate reunion from the Orthodox.

Wiser heads, of course, realized that it would likely prove a death knell to relations with the broader Orthodox Communion. So, it then became imperative that the Vatican’s response be made public as damage control - lest Rome be seen as poaching, contrary to the official stance of both Communions, Catholic and Orthodox. It’s one thing for individuals, even clergy or hierarchs, or even a body of parish size, to cross over in either direction. However, for an entire ecclesial entity to do so is reminiscient of the oft-times less-than-savory historical events that hard-core faithful on both sides proclaim daily on the net as either victories for or dastardly crimes against their faithful in times past.
Are the Macedonian Catholics of which you write the same group that requested communion with the Catholic Church those many years ago?
No, these are Macedonians who were historically in communion with Rome. During Tito’s regime, distinctions among the myriad ethnicities that comprised Yugoslavia were not much favored - in fact, they were absolutely discouraged. The Croatian, Macedonian, Montenegron, and (very small) Serbian Byzantine Churches (as we would call them now) were essentially merged into a combined ecclesial body - I actually think I remember it being termed as the Yugoslavian Byzantine Catholic Rite or Church in some lists of the time.

With the break-up of the former republic, the Eparchy of Kriveczi of the Croat Byzantines was the largest extant body and the other three ethnicities were subsumed into it - not a combo designed to last, because of ethnic, cultural, and political tensions and the erection of geo-political borders., It was not at all long until 3 exarchates were erected, loosely associated to the Croat Eparchy - very loosely. (I suspect that the reason that Rome still lists the Church as the Eparchy or Diocese of Kriveczi, rather than as the Croatian Byzantine Church is to keep a lid on things.)

Macedonia is apparently the largest of the 3 - which would historically have been the case, I believe (Serbian Byzantine Catholics are very much a minority, not sure about the Montenegrons). So, the time has seemingly arrived that they are being deemed sufficient in number to be separated from the artificial tie to Kriveczi. My best guess …
 
I just looked at the thread title - how the heck did we get here from holydays of obligation?

Must have something to do with the common prefix in byzantine and bizarre :rolleyes:
 
Eastern Catholic Statatistics 2010

4,350,735 Ukrainian * (Union of Brest 1595)
3,828,591 Syro-Malabar #
3,290,539 Maronite %
1,614,604 Melkite * (1724 Syrian-Byzantine)
707,452 Romanian * (Act of Union of 1698, Metr. Atanasie Anghel)
646,243 Ruthenian * (Union of Uzhorod 1646)
593,459 Armenian @
490,371 Chaldean #
420,081 Syro-Malankara %
290,000 Hungarian * (Union of Uzhorod 1646)
239,394 Slovak * (Union of Uzhorod 1646)
229,547 Ethiopian/Eritrean $
163,630 Coptic $
158,818 Syrian %
61,487 Italo-Albanian *
43,878 Krizevci (Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia-Herzegovina, Montenegro, Serbia, Kosovo) * +
15,037 Macedonian * ++
10,000 Bulgarian * +++
3,845 Albanian *
2,525 Greek *​

147,600 Ordinariates for the Faithful of the Eastern Rite (Argentina, Austria, Brazil, France, Poland)
  • Byzantine (Ukrainian, Melkite, Romanian, Ruthenian, …)

Chaldean (Malabar, Chaldean)​

% Antiochian (Maronite, Malankara, Syrian)
@ Armenian (Armenian)
$ Alexandrian (Coptic, Ethiopian/Eritrean)
  • From migrated Serbs in Croatia, Ruthenians from Slovakia, Ukrainians from Galicia, Macedonians from Yugoslavia, Romanians from Banat.
    ++ From Krizevci (Yugoslavia), exarchate in 2001.
    +++ Bulgarian from Macedonia and Trace, reorganized in 1926.
 
Eastern Catholic Statatistics 2010

4,350,735 Ukrainian * (Union of Brest 1595)
3,828,591 Syro-Malabar #
3,290,539 Maronite %
1,614,604 Melkite * (1724 Syrian-Byzantine)
707,452 Romanian * (Act of Union of 1698, Metr. Atanasie Anghel)
646,243 Ruthenian * (Union of Uzhorod 1646)
593,459 Armenian @
490,371 Chaldean #
420,081 Syro-Malankara %
290,000 Hungarian * (Union of Uzhorod 1646)
239,394 Slovak * (Union of Uzhorod 1646)
229,547 Ethiopian/Eritrean $
163,630 Coptic $
158,818 Syrian %
61,487 Italo-Albanian *
43,878 Krizevci (Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia-Herzegovina, Montenegro, Serbia, Kosovo) * +
15,037 Macedonian * ++
10,000 Bulgarian * +++
3,845 Albanian *
2,525 Greek *​

147,600 Ordinariates for the Faithful of the Eastern Rite (Argentina, Austria, Brazil, France, Poland)
  • Byzantine (Ukrainian, Melkite, Romanian, Ruthenian, …)

Chaldean (Malabar, Chaldean)​

% Antiochian (Maronite, Malankara, Syrian)
@ Armenian (Armenian)
$ Alexandrian (Coptic, Ethiopian/Eritrean)
  • From migrated Serbs in Croatia, Ruthenians from Slovakia, Ukrainians from Galicia, Macedonians from Yugoslavia, Romanians from Banat.
    ++ From Krizevci (Yugoslavia), exarchate in 2001.
    +++ Bulgarian from Macedonia and Trace, reorganized in 1926.
Plus “Ordinariates for the Faithful of Various Eastern Catholic Churches Without Their Own Hierarchy” – moi.
 
Plus “Ordinariates for the Faithful of Various Eastern Catholic Churches Without Their Own Hierarchy” – moi.
I’m sorry, I did not list two Churches because the statistics were not included in the Annuario Pontifico.

Russian Church
Belarusan Church

The Ordinariates are the ones listed in the other post as 147,600 in Argentina, Austria, Brazil, France, and Poland.
 
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