Roundup of a discussion with a Jehovah's Witness

[T_More]

No of course we shouldn’t. But my question is how to argue our Christian point to them!

The New World Translation:

Isaiah 44:24

24 This is what Jehovah has said, your Repurchaser and the Former of you from the belly: “I, Jehovah, am doing everything, stretching out the heavens by myself, laying out the earth. Who was with me?

Isaiah 45:12

12I myself have made the earth and have created even man upon it. I—**my own hands **have stretched out the heavens, and all the army of them I have commanded.”

John 1:3

**All things **came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence.

Genesis 1:26

And God went on to say: “Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness, and let them have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and the domestic animals and all the earth and every moving animal that is moving upon the earth.”

…start with that. The onus is on them to explain the apparent contradiction to their theology using their own version of scripture.

 

[CutlerB]

The New World Translation:

Isaiah 44:24

24 This is what Jehovah has said, your Repurchaser and the Former of you from the belly: “I, Jehovah, am doing everything, stretching out the heavens by myself, laying out the earth. Who was with me?

Isaiah 45:12

12I myself have made the earth and have created even man upon it. I—**my own hands **have stretched out the heavens, and all the army of them I have commanded.”

John 1:3

**All things **came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence.

Genesis 1:26

And God went on to say: “Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness, and let them have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and the domestic animals and all the earth and every moving animal that is moving upon the earth.”

…start with that. The onus is on them to explain the apparent contradiction to their theology using their own version of scripture.

Thank you, T More! Great to see you here!

 

[sedonaman]

…
Genesis 1:26

And God went on to say: “Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness, and let them have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and the domestic animals and all the earth and every moving animal that is moving upon the earth.”

…start with that. The onus is on them to explain the apparent contradiction to their theology using their own version of scripture.

Someone could argue that those are the royal pronouns.

 

[CutlerB]

Someone could argue that those are the royal pronouns.

They might, but it’s not the case and I’ve done quite a lot of reading on it. (I’ve made my own little appendix for their NWT so I can look things up)

 

[T_More]

Someone could argue that those are the royal pronouns.

Hence the reason the other verses were cited. Context, in it’s entirety…

Our best arguments won’t make a bit of difference if individuals of heretical sects don’t cooperate with God’s grace. Hell does exist, and sadly, many will not avoid it.

 

[T_More]

…

 

[FaithfulAndTrue]

Someone could argue that those are the royal pronouns.

I think it’s kind of interesting that the word for “God” in Gen 1 is “Elohiym” which is a “3 or more” plural form in conjunction with pronouns “us” and “our” but in Exodus 20 the same plural form of God is used in conjunction with singular pronouns “I” and “Me” (as it is everywhere else in the OT).

Considering that Moses wrote both of those, it’s interesting that they’re different and that it could be argued as evidence for royal or a Trinity.

Establishing the Trinity is a much easier road to plow with a JW than it is with a Jew because JW recognize the NT, albeit a bastardized version.

I simply ask why the Jews picked up stones to stone Jesus in John 8:59 if Jesus wasn’t blaspheming (claiming deity) in v58. Their version hasn’t bastardized that.

If that doesn’t do it, then I ask them who is the Alpha & Omega, the First & the Last, and who sits on the throne. They can use their own Bible if they like.

**Jesus is the Alpha & Omega/First & Last: **

And when I saw him, I fell as dead at his feet. And he laid his right hand upon me and said: “Do not be fearful. I am the First and the Last, and the living one; and I became dead, but, look! I am living forever and ever, and I have the keys of death and of Ha′des.
(Rev 1:17-18 NWT)

Obviously this is Jesus because he was dead and resurrected.

“‘Look! I am coming quickly, and the reward I give is with me, to render to each one as his work is. I am the Al′pha and the O‧me′ga, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.
(Rev 22:12-13 NWT)

We know this is Jesus speaking because a few verses later (v16) says “I, Jesus…” And if they want to argue that it wasn’t Jesus speaking until v16, ask “Who then is claiming to be coming quickly?” It’s confirmed again that Jesus is the one coming quickly in v20.

**God is the Alpha & Omega/First & Last: **

“I am the Al′pha and the O‧me′ga,” says Jehovah God, “the One who is and who was and who is coming, the Almighty.”
(Rev 1:8 NWT)

And if that’s not enough…

And the One seated on the throne said: “Look! I am making all things new.” Also, he says: “Write, because these words are faithful and true.”And he said to me: “They have come to pass! I am the Al′pha and the O‧me′ga, the beginning and the end. To anyone thirsting I will give from the fountain of the water of life free.Anyone conquering will inherit these things, and I shall be his God and he will be my son.
(Rev 21:5-7 NWT)

Here, the Alpha & Omega sits on the throne claims to be God. Speaking of sitting on the throne, we know that God judges while sitting on the Great White Throne (Rev 20:11-15), but hold on a sec, thanks to Jn 5:22, we know that Jesus is the one that does the judging.

And if that’s still not enough, here are some OT claims that the Alpha & Omega/First & Last is God…

“I, Jehovah, the First One; and with the last ones I am the same.”
(Is 41:4 NWT)

“This is what Jehovah has said, the King of Israel and the Repurchaser of him, Jehovah of armies, ‘I am the first and I am the last, and besides me there is no God.
(Is 44:6 NWT)

“Listen to me, O Jacob, and you Israel my called one. I am the same One. I am the first. Moreover, I am the last.
(Is 48:12 NWT)

Conclusion:

At a very minimum, it’s impossible not to conclude that John thought Jesus was God—even from their own bastardized NWT Bible. And if they take their own Bible to be any form of truth, there’s no way that intellectual honestly can conclude something different.

 

[Razanir]

At a very minimum, it’s impossible not to conclude that John thought Jesus was God—even from their own bastardized NWT Bible. And if they take their own Bible to be any form of truth, there’s no way that intellectual honestly can conclude something different.

I still want to know why they trust the Bible if the supposedly apostate Catholic Church (from their point of view) organized it

 

[FaithfulAndTrue]

I still want to know why they trust the Bible if the supposedly apostate Catholic Church (from their point of view) organized it

I would guess that the answer would be something like the Catholic Church compiled what was already written and widely circulated rather than write something new. The catch is that it was just not translated properly until the late 20th century

Another question I’ve asked is who the translators were that put together the NWT. You should be able to find out who the translators are of any respectable translation. Otherwise, how are we to know if they are qualified? Guess, who translated the NWT. Go ahead. You’ll have to guess because no one knows.

 

[peace2u2]

But my question is how to argue our Christian point to them!

You will need to use the Bible to do so, but it will be difficult because the first thing they will say to you after you point out their error is that your Bible is the wrong translation.

Your best defense is that God does say one thing and mean another. God does not say something in the Bible and then contradict Himself the way JW’s interpret the Word of God.

For example on the topic of the 144,000 saved. How could that be when Scripture (Rev. 7:9) talks about the multitude of people in Heaven? 144,000 doesn’t sound like a multitude to me. You could ask them then, if only 144,000 people make it to Heaven, then why are you preaching “hope” to me because your interpretation of hope does not sound very hopeful that I will be invited to the heavenly banquet and Jesus came to bring hope to the lost because Jesus’ ministry was about saving not condemning. Why would Jesus want to save me a sinner and then not invite me to live with Him in Heaven for eternity? What would be the point?

The first topic they will use to evangelize you is the name of God. They will point to their Bibles and ask you to read from it and you will notice the name of God does not say “God” or “Lord” where our Bibles do, it says Jehovah. How can that be the name of God when God spoke to Moses and said his name was "I AM’ which translated in ancient Hebrew as YHWH or Yahweh; ancient Hebrew did not use vowels and out of reverence for the Holy Name of God they would not speak or write His name so translated in ancient Hebrew it came out as “Adonai” or “Lord” and that is the name that God’s chosen people, the Hebrews or Israelites said when they wanted to speak His Holy Name or write it to show reverence for the name of Yahwah. The interpretation of Jehovah is a mistranslation by a Catholic monk in the 16th century.

But, just remember the words from Joshua 1:9: “Be strong and of good courage; be not frightened, neither be dismayed; for the Lord your God is with you wherever you go.”

Keep praying for their conversion and tell them that you are praying for them. They of course will tell you the same.

Peace

 

[CutlerB]

You will need to use the Bible to do so, but it will be difficult because the first thing they will say to you after you point out their error is that your Bible is the wrong translation.

Your best defense is that God does say one thing and mean another. God does not say something in the Bible and then contradict Himself the way JW’s interpret the Word of God.

For example on the topic of the 144,000 saved. How could that be when Scripture (Rev. 7:9) talks about the multitude of people in Heaven? 144,000 doesn’t sound like a multitude to me. You could ask them then, if only 144,000 people make it to Heaven, then why are you preaching “hope” to me because your interpretation of hope does not sound very hopeful that I will be invited to the heavenly banquet and Jesus came to bring hope to the lost because Jesus’ ministry was about saving not condemning. Why would Jesus want to save me a sinner and then not invite me to live with Him in Heaven for eternity? What would be the point?

The first topic they will use to evangelize you is the name of God. They will point to their Bibles and ask you to read from it and you will notice the name of God does not say “God” or “Lord” where our Bibles do, it says Jehovah. How can that be the name of God when God spoke to Moses and said his name was "I AM’ which translated in ancient Hebrew as YHWH or Yahweh; ancient Hebrew did not use vowels and out of reverence for the Holy Name of God they would not speak or write His name so translated in ancient Hebrew it came out as “Adonai” or “Lord” and that is the name that God’s chosen people, the Hebrews or Israelites said when they wanted to speak His Holy Name or write it to show reverence for the name of Yahwah. The interpretation of Jehovah is a mistranslation by a Catholic monk in the 16th century.

But, just remember the words from Joshua 1:9: “Be strong and of good courage; be not frightened, neither be dismayed; for the Lord your God is with you wherever you go.”

Keep praying for their conversion and tell them that you are praying for them. They of course will tell you the same.

Peace

I’m actually quite well equipped to defend proper Bible translations against their distortion. But most of the time I talk with a JW (either a friend of mine or some at the door) I will use their NWT. It is far from a “good distortion”. They can’t get rid of all the verses contrary to their doctrine, although they even do DELETE verses. (Especially those that refer to hell)

But they will always conjure up new “proofs” and ways to distract you. We’ve got to learn from each other.

 

[Kc906]

Please feel free to comment, especially on the two Old Testament —*New Testament thingys.

If you are going to choose the topic as the divinity of Christ, then post 41 and 47 are very solid scriptural points that the JW will have issues answering directly. I personally prefer this point myself, since if you can show them this from scripture this will cause doubt with everything they were taught by the WTBS.

I would include Isaiah 9:6 and John 20:28 as very relevant passages which reveal to us the Word of God, and who he was, and is. Both of these verses call Jesus God with a capital G in their NWT, yet in John 1:1 and John 1:18 Jesus is called “a god” in their translation. So which one is it, is Jesus God or a god? One would have to conclude that either Isaiah 9:6/John 20:28 or John 1:1/John 1:18 are mistranslated in their bible. This may have them questioning the translation at this point, but probably not likely. Now you move on to John 20:28 which shows the unbelieving Thomas getting his faith.

John 20:28,…And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”

Thomas was literally telling Jesus that he was “the Lord of him and the God of him.” If you have their Kingom Interlinear Translation then show them this verse in the original greek. Then you ask them, “Is Jesus your Lord and God?” If not, why not?

 

[adf417]

No of course we shouldn’t. But my question is how to argue our Christian point to them!

Cutler if you asking what is the Trinitarian formula to prove the Trinity - there are many threads here on CAF that do it justice along with what has been quoted on this thread however, I’m sure you know that already. So once you have established that (which you probably wont with a JW) then your original post would be colored with one color as God and Jesus are one.

 

[Matt_Guitar_Man]

If you are going to choose the topic as the divinity of Christ, then post 41 and 47 are very solid scriptural points that the JW will have issues answering directly. I personally prefer this point myself, since if you can show them this from scripture this will cause doubt with everything they were taught by the WTBS.

I would include Isaiah 9:6 and John 20:28 as very relevant passages which reveal to us the Word of God, and who he was, and is. Both of these verses call Jesus God with a capital G in their NWT, yet in John 1:1 and John 1:18 Jesus is called “a god” in their translation. So which one is it, is Jesus God or a god? One would have to conclude that either Isaiah 9:6/John 20:28 or John 1:1/John 1:18 are mistranslated in their bible. This may have them questioning the translation at this point, but probably not likely. Now you move on to John 20:28 which shows the unbelieving Thomas getting his faith.

John 20:28,…And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”

Thomas was literally telling Jesus that he was “the Lord of him and the God of him.” If you have their Kingom Interlinear Translation then show them this verse in the original greek. Then you ask them, “Is Jesus your Lord and God?” If not, why not?

After reading the threads from the start all the way through, I have found this disscusion very interesting. I have had a reasnable amount of experiance with those who prescribe to the teachings of the Watch Tower Society as my wifes sister has been a Jehovahs Witness for thirty years and she and her husband have tried very hard to convert me over the last 12 years, and bring me out of the “Apostate Catholic Church” and into the “Truth”.
As a result of this I have made myself cognisant with the littreture of the society form Charles Taze Russell’s “Studies in the Scriptures”, Rutherfords writtings and theology,
the publishers hand book “Reasoning from the Scriptures” and just about everything in between.
Like a lot of different groups the Watch Tower Society claim to follow the word of God as found in the Bible and are bassicaly litteralists.
With this in mind I have a few Scriptures that I like to read to Jehovahs wittnesses about Christs Divinity or if you like so we dont become confused, about Christ being God.
I like to read these Scriptures out of context as a narrative ( I know this is not good biblical exergee).
I will do these Scriptures one at a time and wait for comments on them by any intereted person.
The first is the very first words of the Bible.
Gen 1:1
“In the begining God made the heavens and the earth”
According to Watch Tower Theology these very first words of Gods word can not be taken littraly and need interpritation. To follow WTS theology this first verse should read either " In the begining God made Michael the Arc Angle". or “In the begining Michael the Arc Angel made the heavens and the earth”.
This first verse of the Bible is a cornerstone to the faith and belief in it as it stands protects us from many forms of error such as the Platonic Philosophy of the one all encomposing universal force creating lessor “god’s” to create the universe etc.
I dont know about anyone else out there but a group claiming to follow the Bible that need to do a quite extensive interpritation to fit the very first verse of the Bible into there teaching
start on the back foot with me and by thier own theology have a very large question mark over them.
Comments Please…

 

[Matt_Guitar_Man]

After reading and talking to Jehovahs Witnesses about their understanding of Gen 1:1 I then like to go to the New Testament Creation story Jn1:1-6. we all know that the problem here is the New World Translation of Jn1;1c ( and the Word was a god ) instead of and the Word was God.
At this point I find it more or less a waste of time to talk about the original greek, indefinet articals, predicates, support from Coptic translations and how the academic world views this translation. It just ends up going round and round in circles.
Instead I like to point out the difference with Gen 1:1 because now according to the NWT
it was not God who created the heavens and the earth but “a god” and I then ask the Missionary to please explain this to me. At this point one has to settle back make a cup of coffie and get ready for what becomes a long circutious journey of cross refrences etc.
at the end of this what usually happens is the JW publisher holds two diametricaly opposed positions at the same time i.e. God created the universe through a god. When I point out that the text does not support this we go round and round again.
Next I ask for the identifacation of this “a god”. more cross refrencing, etc until hey presto he is actualy Micheal the Arc Angel. once again I point out that the text does not support this.
Next I ask "if your point of view is true, is Micheal the Arc Angel who is “a god” true God or false god because the bible clearly points out that there is only one true GOD and many false gods.
Round we go again, keep the coffie brewing, as it is explained to me that the a god isnt realy a god but an angle.
At this point I point out to the Jehovahs Witness that if we take the two texts Gen1:1 and Jn1:1-6 and accept them the way they have been preserved for us through the church handed down from generation to generation, Farther to Son over the last 2000 years they are in perfect harmony almost sublime harmony they dont need any explination at all, one doese not need a book study to understand them, one doese not need extensive interpritation to grasp the true meaning, I then say that one could almost come to the conclusion because these two texts fit together so well like a hand in a glove that the inspired writter of Jn1:1 meant for it to be this way, that this was his true intention, that we the faithfull are ment to understand it like this, just the way it is written. and that John"s original intention was not for the faithfull to only be able to understand these passages through extensive cross refrencing and “book studies” etc.
At this stage the cognative dissonance kicks in and the logic of this simple argument along with the obviously effortless harmony of Gods word causes a very uneasy feeling.

 

[aicirt]

Personally, I find JWs intellectually challenged. JW doesn’t make any sense. I asked one why she left her church (not Catholic) and she stated because it told her the name of God which is Jehovah. She always wante to know his name and JWs told her. And so she gave up her faith, her family, and followed JWs. :hypno: Apparently, that’s all it took.

I’ve gotten on that merry-go-round with them too and a pot of coffee does help but you come back right to the place where you started.

As a previous poster stated, there’s 7 million JWs in the world and about one million leave per year not counting those that die. Only 144,000 will get into heaven. Why bother? Add up all the ones since 1850 or so and what’s the chances of getting in? Nil. Not to mention your children who don’t have a chance either.

And they are not a joyous lot. No celebrations. I don’t see what the attraction is.

 

[Matt_Guitar_Man]

Personally, I find JWs intellectually challenged. JW doesn’t make any sense. I asked one why she left her church (not Catholic) and she stated because it told her the name of God which is Jehovah. She always wante to know his name and JWs told her. And so she gave up her faith, her family, and followed JWs. :hypno: Apparently, that’s all it took.

I’ve gotten on that merry-go-round with them too and a pot of coffee does help but you come back right to the place where you started.

As a previous poster stated, there’s 7 million JWs in the world and about one million leave per year not counting those that die. Only 144,000 will get into heaven. Why bother? Add up all the ones since 1850 or so and what’s the chances of getting in? Nil. Not to mention your children who don’t have a chance either.

And they are not a joyous lot. No celebrations. I don’t see what the attraction is.

I completly agree with you. Why bother indeed ? Unfortunatly for me I have an absolutly millatent and commited Watch Tower ite in my immedeate extended family so I have to bother as they will take every oppertunity to drive in the thin edge of the wedge and prey on the uninformed or impressionable such as my wife and young child. I find it interesting that they will do everything possable to avoide talking about the Bible and God with me and yet even though I have asked them to respect my wish’s when my back is turned way they go “Jehovah God this & Jehovah God that”.
St Peter described them perfectly when he said they are like lions outside the gate prowling around waiting to prey on the weak, naiev & vunurable.

 

[Matt_Guitar_Man]

Unfortunatly the attraction is the same for all millinialist groups. Immidiate reform now - a cattaclismic event (Armagedon) in which all those who dont beleive or belong to your group are exterminated. - Followed by a better life in the utopian new world to come.
The classic example of this millinialist madness in recent history is Hitlers National Socialism in 1932. He promised imidiate reform for the German people, then the inevitable war of armagedon to wipe out all non beleivers, followed by a better life in the 1000 year Riche to come.
This is exactly the same retohric of the Watch Tower Society and the same retohric of all Totalitarian groups.
The realy interesting thing about the Watch Tower Society is that with thier class system they have created a prolotariate for themselves within the orginisation. A prolotariate is that group within a society that have nothing else to offer the society except thier labour. through the Watch Tower’s class system theology they have made for themselves a majority group of free labour to not only sell thier wears and bring in money but also recruite others. this group can only be in good standing with the society and by default God by completing these tasks of labour set for them by the society i.e endless hours of door to door sales work.
The Watch Tower Society at its core is a mercantile commercial venture and when talking to them one should always keep in mind the warning of St Peter in 2peter2:1-3 when he tells us that the false teachers through thier greed will make merchandise out of you.

Remember at thier heart, the Watch Tower Society teaches Millenialism the Catechism of the Catholic Churh artical 676 states that Millenialism is error and can not be safely taught. All one needs to do is look back on history at all those groups that were going to lead society or some part of society into the brave new world and contemplate the misery and disaster that they brought upon thier followers and others to once again realise and understand why Christ put in place his Church with a teaching athority to protect the faithfull from this type of error.

 

[CutlerB]

what usually happens is the JW publisher holds two diametricaly opposed positions at the same time i.e. God created the universe through a god. When I point out that the text does not support this we go round and round again.

I run into that sort of thing all the time. “God did this THROUGH somebody” when two things contradict in their interpretation. Like Creation as you pointed out. But I don’t see a way to disprove that. After all, don’t we as Christians have some points where we say God did something through something/someone?

Next I ask for the identifacation of this “a god”. more cross refrencing, etc until hey presto he is actualy Micheal the Arc Angel. once again I point out that the text does not support this.
Next I ask "if your point of view is true, is Micheal the Arc Angel who is “a god” true God or false god because the bible clearly points out that there is only one true GOD and many false gods.
Round we go again, keep the coffie brewing, as it is explained to me that the a god isnt realy a god but an angle.

Another thing I am up against when talking to a JW friend of mine. “Humans are called gods by God, that doesn’t mean they are false gods, but only gods in the sense of ‘a mighty one’”. Can’t answer that either.

Personally, I find JWs intellectually challenged. JW doesn’t make any sense. I asked one why she left her church (not Catholic) and she stated because it told her the name of God which is Jehovah. She always wante to know his name and JWs told her. And so she gave up her faith, her family, and followed JWs. :hypno: Apparently, that’s all it took.

That’s what I told the lady at the door. I openly told her that the reason I had the Catechism of the Catholic Church with me was that, although I was nominally an Anglican, I had come to the conclusion that the Catholic Church’s position is the best, deepest and most challenging. It gives life a meaning and makes sense in so many ways. I sort of implied that JW theology is – pardon the wording – inferior and a joke against Catholicism. Just to make it clear: I didn’t tell her that, as it’s very impolite, and would have driven her away I guess. Yet, I believe it’s true: JW theology doesn’t make sense.

We didn’t get into the issue of God’s name though. I spoke of “Jehovah” to her, telling her I held that Jesus was Jehovah, but not the Father. I’m not sure whether the lady grasped that.

As a previous poster stated, there’s 7 million JWs in the world and about one million leave per year not counting those that die. Only 144,000 will get into heaven. Why bother? Add up all the ones since 1850 or so and what’s the chances of getting in? Nil. Not to mention your children who don’t have a chance either.

1 Million a year?! Really? They must be making more than a million converts every year then to keep growing as their numbers say.

About the 144,000: I don’t think that will get you very far, as they then say: “But we’ll go to Paradise Earth!”

And they are not a joyous lot. No celebrations. I don’t see what the attraction is.

St Peter described them perfectly when he said they are like lions outside the gate prowling around waiting to prey on the weak, naiev & vunurable.

He sure did. How curious an incident that the JW lady at the door told me that this meant “Christendom”.

 

[aicirt]

Considering that the million leaving a year is worldwide, it isn’t such an astonishing number. Thank goodness those folk were able to think it through. I think it must be very difficult because they are so tethered to other JWs. When you leave, you leave all your family and your friends.