Roundup of a discussion with a Jehovah's Witness

[CutlerB]

Considering that the million leaving a year is worldwide, it isn’t such an astonishing number. Thank goodness those folk were able to think it through. I think it must be very difficult because they are so tethered to other JWs. When you leave, you leave all your family and your friends.

Well, but there are only about 7 million JWs in the world, that means they basically replace all of their followers completely once every seven years! About 15% loss every year is a huge loss. It’s as if the Catholic Church lost 180 Million adherents every year!

 

[aicirt]

Well, but there are only about 7 million JWs in the world, that means they basically replace all of their followers completely once every seven years! About 15% loss every year is a huge loss. It’s as if the Catholic Church lost 180 Million adherents every year!

Doesn’t bother me. Does it really bother you? It is a false religion. It isn’t Christian. No Trinity, no Jesus Christ. If the Holy Spirit is moving among the members to get them out, so be it. It is a cult which by definition means they stick to other JWs who are constantly observing them. Apparently, many are turned off.

 

[CutlerB]

Doesn’t bother me. Does it really bother you? It is a false religion. It isn’t Christian. No Trinity, no Jesus Christ. If the Holy Spirit is moving among the members to get them out, so be it. It is a cult which by definition means they stick to other JWs who are constantly observing them. Apparently, many are turned off.

It doesn’t bother me at all they are loosing members. In fact, it’s one false religion less, if it continues that way. A vicious one less, I should say.

 

[Kc906]

Another thing I am up against when talking to a JW friend of mine. “Humans are called gods by God, that doesn’t mean they are false gods, but only gods in the sense of ‘a mighty one’”. Can’t answer that either.

The JW’s get this line of reasoning from Psalm 82:1-8 and John 10:33-36, but of course they take it out of context and just see that humans are being called “gods” in both verses. Let’s take a look:

Psalm 82:1-8, God stands in the congregation of the mighty; He judges among the gods. 2 How long will you judge unjustly, And show partiality to the wicked? Selah 3 Defend the poor and fatherless; Do justice to the afflicted and needy. 4 Deliver the poor and needy; Free them from the hand of the wicked. 5 They do not know, nor do they understand; They walk about in darkness; All the foundations of the earth are unstable. 6 I said, “You are gods, And all of you are children of the Most High. 7 But you shall die like men, And fall like one of the princes.” 8 Arise, O God, judge the earth; For You shall inherit all nations.

John 10:33-36, 33 The Jews answered Him, saying, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God.” 34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your law, ‘I said, “You are gods”’? 35 If He called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken), 36 do you say of Him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’?

The context of Psalm 82 begins in verse 1; it shows how the judges were judging “unjustly,” and showing partiality to the wicked. In verse 7 it shows that these “gods” will die like men; God is explaining to us that even though they wield power as if they were “gods”, they are going to die like the rest of us. The JW is right on one point, these judges were not truly gods in any way, shape, or form. Because, there is only one true God and he did not create any other “gods.” They were mighty men who wielded power on the earth.

However, Jesus is called God with a capital G in several places in their NWT, so this line of reasoning that Jesus was called “a god” only in the sense that he was Mighty cannot be used (Isaiah 9:6, Matthew 1:23, John 20:28.) Because Jesus is explicitly called “The Mighty God, My Lord and My God, and God With Us.” The JW’s try to use their same reasoning from Psalm 82 stating that Jesus was mighty like the “gods” in Psalm 82, but he himself is only that; not Deity in any way. If that is true, then calling Jesus your God as Thomas did, is blasphemy against the one true God, YHWH the Father.

So in John 1:1 when they say Jesus was just Mighty, but not divine in any way, they have to explain away how this person who is not God (only 1 true God) created everything in the Universe. Obviously the judges who were called “gods” were Mighty men with power, but they obviously were very different from the Word of God who is called “a god” in their NWT.

 

[CutlerB]

The JW’s get this line of reasoning from Psalm 82:1-8 and John 10:33-36, but of course they take it out of context and just see that humans are being called “gods” in both verses. Let’s take a look:

Psalm 82:1-8, God stands in the congregation of the mighty; He judges among the gods. 2 How long will you judge unjustly, And show partiality to the wicked? Selah 3 Defend the poor and fatherless; Do justice to the afflicted and needy. 4 Deliver the poor and needy; Free them from the hand of the wicked. 5 They do not know, nor do they understand; They walk about in darkness; All the foundations of the earth are unstable. 6 I said, “You are gods, And all of you are children of the Most High. 7 But you shall die like men, And fall like one of the princes.” 8 Arise, O God, judge the earth; For You shall inherit all nations.

John 10:33-36, 33 The Jews answered Him, saying, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God.” 34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your law, ‘I said, “You are gods”’? 35 If He called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken), 36 do you say of Him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’?

The context of Psalm 82 begins in verse 1; it shows how the judges were judging “unjustly,” and showing partiality to the wicked. In verse 7 it shows that these “gods” will die like men; God is explaining to us that even though they wield power as if they were “gods”, they are going to die like the rest of us. The JW is right on one point, these judges were not truly gods in any way, shape, or form. Because, there is only one true God and he did not create any other “gods.” They were mighty men who wielded power on the earth.

However, Jesus is called God with a capital G in several places in their NWT, so this line of reasoning that Jesus was called “a god” only in the sense that he was Mighty cannot be used (Isaiah 9:6, Matthew 1:23, John 20:28.) Because Jesus is explicitly called “The Mighty God, My Lord and My God, and God With Us.” The JW’s try to use their same reasoning from Psalm 82 stating that Jesus was mighty like the “gods” in Psalm 82, but he himself is only that; not Deity in any way. If that is true, then calling Jesus your God as Thomas did, is blasphemy against the one true God, YHWH the Father.

So in John 1:1 when they say Jesus was just Mighty, but not divine in any way, they have to explain away how this person who is not God (only 1 true God) created everything in the Universe. Obviously the judges who were called “gods” were Mighty men with power, but they obviously were very different from the Word of God who is called “a god” in their NWT.

Good response! The point about “The Mighty God” is lost in German, which we speak, though. Nouns have capital letters in German, and therefore one cannot make the same distinction as in English.

 

[Razanir]

Good response! The point about “The Mighty God” is lost in German, which we speak, though. Nouns have capital letters in German, and therefore one cannot make the same distinction as in English.

But at the same time, you have interesting double meanings like the Fruit being “köstlich.” I’m using the Bible to help with a vocab, and when I looked it up, two meanings were “delicious” and “costly”

 

[CutlerB]

But at the same time, you have interesting double meanings like the Fruit being “köstlich.” I’m using the Bible to help with a vocab, and when I looked it up, two meanings were “delicious” and “costly”

Well, that double meaning would not really exist today anymore. Nowadays it means “delicious”, although it could mean “costly” a long time ago.

There is “kostbar” though, which means something like precious and of great worth.

 

[Kc906]

Good response! The point about “The Mighty God” is lost in German, which we speak, though. Nouns have capital letters in German, and therefore one cannot make the same distinction as in English.

Like I mentioned, the uppercase and lowercase god/God could get them thinking; it is really a side point though. It all comes down to the context of each verse, and why the Judges of old were called gods, and why Jesus referenced this passage when he called those that doubted his Divinity gods as well.

Just like the context of John 1:1 cross references with Genesis 1:1 by stating “In the Beginning…” We know for a fact that both John 1:1 and Genesis 1:1 are referring to a time before creation took place. At this time before creation took place, the Word existed with God the Father, and the Word was God, or “a god” as they put it. The context of the Word being the instrument of all creation in John is leaps and bounds different than that of the humans being called “gods” or “a god” in scripture. John was not merely calling the Word “Mighty” in 1:1, as the entity that created all things he was correctly being called God, period. Context proves this.

If you read their book “What the Bible Really Teaches” and go to page 33, they bring up Isaiah 9:6-7. The WTBS begins by quoting the scripture word for word, but they “forgot” the part of the verse that calls the Word the “Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father.” They literally write everything else word for word, but leave out those 3 names. This is not an isolated incident of course, many of their publications intentionally mislead people on items that do not fit in with the pre-conceived, non-biblical beliefs of their organization.

 

[Matt_Guitar_Man]

Like I mentioned, the uppercase and lowercase god/God could get them thinking; it is really a side point though. It all comes down to the context of each verse, and why the Judges of old were called gods, and why Jesus referenced this passage when he called those that doubted his Divinity gods as well.

Just like the context of John 1:1 cross references with Genesis 1:1 by stating “In the Beginning…” We know for a fact that both John 1:1 and Genesis 1:1 are referring to a time before creation took place. At this time before creation took place, the Word existed with God the Father, and the Word was God, or “a god” as they put it. The context of the Word being the instrument of all creation in John is leaps and bounds different than that of the humans being called “gods” or “a god” in scripture. John was not merely calling the Word “Mighty” in 1:1, as the entity that created all things he was correctly being called God, period. Context proves this.

If you read their book “What the Bible Really Teaches” and go to page 33, they bring up Isaiah 9:6-7. The WTBS begins by quoting the scripture word for word, but they “forgot” the part of the verse that calls the Word the “Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father.” They literally write everything else word for word, but leave out those 3 names. This is not an isolated incident of course, many of their publications intentionally mislead people on items that do not fit in with the pre-conceived, non-biblical beliefs of their organization.

After Gen1:1 and Jn1:1-6 I then like to read Exodus 33. This is where Moses admonishes the Isralites for making the golden calf etc and God tells them that due to thier lack of faith he will not go with them but will send an angle. Picking it up from verse 13 Moses say’s to God that unless he come’s himself, they will not go. God agrees to this. Emboldend by God’s respones Mosses then ask’s to see Gods face to which God responed’s that no man can look upon his face and live. After this Moses then recieves instructions on how to build the Ark and the tabernacle and how to minister to God’s pressence that will be with them dwelling in the Ark.
I then read Hebrews 8:6-8 This is where we are told that Christ has instututed a better testament, a better ministry and a better promise.
I then ask the Jehovahs Witness “How can a better testament and better ministry and better promise be given to us by an angle and not God himself”? because this propersition was unacceptable to the original Isralites. they said if your going to send us an Angel leave us here in this place. Moses then went on to say that it is you yourself that must be with us so all nations will see that we have God among us.
So if we beleive the Watch Tower position our’s is not a better testamony, ministry and promise it is actually an inferior one than the one given to moses and the isralites back at mount Siani.

 

[Ruthie_again]

Only 144,000 will get into heaven. Why bother?

Because the rest of them get to live on the then-perfected Earth, where the lion lays down with the lamb. I read that in one of their magazines; my sister bought me subscriptions until she gave up on converting me.

The 144,000 are the “anointed ones.” How does somebody know they’re an “anointed one”? - They just know. I guess it’s kinda like the “burning in the breast” that Mormons get.

---

The translators who created the NWT were high mucky-mucks in the WTS. None of them had studied Greek for more than 4 years, nor studied Koine Greek at all. I read this in Crisis of Conscience, by Raymond Franz. He is an ex-Jehovah’s Witness who was high in the council. amazon.com/Crisis-Conscience-Raymond-Franz/dp/0914675249/

That book has all kinds of things that can be brought up.

 

[Matt_Guitar_Man]

Because the rest of them get to live on the then-perfected Earth, where the lion lays down with the lamb. I read that in one of their magazines; my sister bought me subscriptions until she gave up on converting me.

The 144,000 are the “anointed ones.” How does somebody know they’re an “anointed one”? - They just know. I guess it’s kinda like the “burning in the breast” that Mormons get.

---

The translators who created the NWT were high mucky-mucks in the WTS. None of them had studied Greek for more than 4 years, nor studied Koine Greek at all. I read this in Crisis of Conscience, by Raymond Franz. He is an ex-Jehovah’s Witness who was high in the council. amazon.com/Crisis-Conscience-Raymond-Franz/dp/0914675249/

That book has all kinds of things that can be brought up.

Unfortunatly the attraction is the same for all millinialist groups. Immidiate reform now - a cattaclismic event (Armagedon) in which all those who dont beleive or belong to your group are exterminated. - Followed by a better life in the utopian new world to come.
The classic example of this millinialist madness in recent history is Hitlers National Socialism in 1932. He promised imidiate reform for the German people, then the inevitable war of armagedon to wipe out all non beleivers, followed by a better life in the 1000 year Riche to come.
This is exactly the same retohric of the Watch Tower Society and the same retohric of all Totalitarian groups.
The realy interesting thing about the Watch Tower Society is that with thier class system they have created a prolotariate for themselves within the orginisation. A prolotariate is that group within a society that have nothing else to offer the society except thier labour. through the Watch Tower’s class system theology they have made for themselves a majority group of free labour to not only sell thier wears and bring in money but also recruite others. this group can only be in good standing with the society and by default God by completing these tasks of labour set for them by the society i.e endless hours of door to door sales work.
The Watch Tower Society at its core is a mercantile commercial venture and when talking to them one should always keep in mind the warning of St Peter in 2peter2:1-3 when he tells us that the false teachers through thier greed will make merchandise out of you.

Remember at thier heart, the Watch Tower Society teaches Millenialism the Catechism of the Catholic Churh artical 676 states that Millenialism is error and can not be safely taught. All one needs to do is look back on history at all those groups that were going to lead society or some part of society into the brave new world and contemplate the misery and disaster that they brought upon thier followers and others to once again realise and understand why Christ put in place his Church with a teaching athority to protect the faithfull from this type of error.

 

[T_More]

Remember at thier heart, the Watch Tower Society teaches Millenialism the Catechism of the Catholic Churh artical 676 states that Millenialism is error and can not be safely taught. All one needs to do is look back on history at all those groups that were going to lead society or some part of society into the brave new world and contemplate the misery and disaster that they brought upon thier followers and others to once again realise and understand why Christ put in place his Church with a teaching athority to protect the faithfull from this type of error.

Unfortunately, JW’s couldn’t care less what the Catechsim teaches. Most of them couldn’t care less where their movement stemmed from. Reason, common sense and logic are not qualities that are readily found amongst them. Their’s is a religion re-born from a blend of many heresies and sola scriptura taken to it’s logical (or illogical as it were) conclusion.

They have to want and cooperate with God’s grace, with no strings attached and no stipulations. Until that happens they will never, ever, see the forest through the trees.