RSV-CE Needs Correction - Confraternity Psalms (Split Thread)

[Manfred]

How many different versions of the Confraternity Bible exist? Does anyone know the copyright date for each version?

I’m not sure that would be easy to determine. It seems that whenever the Confraternity published either a completed volume of the OT, or at least a book of major importance, such as the Psalms, a Catholic publisher issued a new “Confraternity Bible”.

And we thought that having two different RSV-CE’s (Ignatius vs Oxford) was a big deal!

 

[lak611]

I’m not sure that would be easy to determine. It seems that whenever the Confraternity published either a completed volume of the OT, or at least a book of major importance, such as the Psalms, a Catholic publisher issued a new “Confraternity Bible”.

And we thought that having two different RSV-CE’s (Ignatius vs Oxford) was a big deal!

Are these publishers still in existence? Perhaps, it would be possible to contact the publishers and ask them. Do you or anyone else know who these publishers were?

 

[Manfred]

Ecclesiastes 12:12

Of the making of many books there is no end, and in much study there is weariness for the flesh. (NAB)

Of making many books there is no end, and much study is a weariness of the flesh. (RSV)

Of making many books there is no end: and much study is an affliction of the flesh. (Douay)

Take your pick.

 

[Manfred]

Are these publishers still in existence? Perhaps, it would be possible to contact the publishers and ask them. Do you or anyone else know who these publishers were?

Catholic Book Publishing Co., NY
John Murphy Co., Baltimore, MD

I’m sure there were one or two more who billed themselves as “publishers to the Holy See”.

 

[lak611]

Catholic Book Publishing Co., NY
John Murphy Co., Baltimore, MD

I’m sure there were one or two more who billed themselves as “publishers to the Holy See”.

Thanks! I may contact them to find out what they say.

 

[Cranch]

Around 1945, Pius XII promulgated a new Latin version of the Psalter, translated from the Hebrew, though not necessarily from the Massoretic text. This was used in the Roman Breviary. I know of no English translation of this version.

The following is taken from the Intro. to the 1970 NAB, with emphasis added:

“The basic text for the Psalms is not the Massoretic but one which the editors considered closer to the original inspired form, namely the Hebrew text underlying the new Latin Psalter of the Church, the Liber Psalmorum (1944, 1945). Nevertheless they retained full liberty to establish the reading of the original text on sound critical principles.”

For what it’s worth, i.e., my two cents, this is a rather nice version of the Psalms, even better than the RSV-CE in many places. These were the Psalms that I became familiar with in my youth from reading “A Short Breviary” (Liturgical Press), and, of course, the version still used (albeit with some inclusivisms slipped in) in the Liturgy in the USA.

I’m getting confused, Manfred! Based on these two posts, I take it you do not think the Confraternity/NAB Psalms is simply an English translation of Pius XII’s Latin Psalter. But you also wrote:

I think you’ve solved the puzzle, mmortal; the so-called Confraternity Psalms from the Church’s “new Latin Psalter” is none other than that (with spelling of names updated) which went into the 1970 NAB.

The excerpt from the NAB introduction does sound (I think) like the Psalms were translated from a Hebrew text rather than the Latin. But how does that fit with the descriptions of the Psalms in these two examples?:

1956 Confraternity Bible

1951 Confraternity Bible

 

[mmortal03]

As most of us know, the NAB OT was issued in FOUR separate volumes:

I. Genesis - Ruth (1952) [Genesis was re-translated before the NAB was published]
II. Job - Sirach (1955)
III. Isaia - Malachia (1961)
IV. Samuel - Maccabees (1969)

Obviously, the Book of Psalms would have been in vol. II, but that does not mean that this Psalter could not have been issued separately at an earlier date, say, 1953, for inclusion in bibles with the Confraternity NT.

The Wikipedia page thought that that the Confraternity translation of the Psalms went in when the New Testament came out. I corrected a lot of the page two nights ago, but I left that bit in, until we could refute it. We need some 1941-1949 Confraternity Bibles to look at.

 

[mmortal03]

Also, what is the Liber Psalmorum called in English? I can’t find any worthwhile information on it in English anywhere.

 

[Manfred]

I’m getting confused, Manfred! Based on these two posts, I take it you do not think the Confraternity/NAB Psalms is simply an English translation of Pius XII’s Latin Psalter.

The excerpt from the NAB introduction does sound (I think) like the Psalms were translated from a Hebrew text rather than the Latin.

You’re right, Cranch; I did perhaps add to the confusion.

What I mean is that the 1944, 1945 Liber Psalmorum (Latin text used in the Roman Breviary) has not been translated from Latin into English.

What these Confraternity bibles, as well as the 1970 NAB, have is a translation into English from the same Hebrew that was used for the (Latin) Liber Psalmorum of Pius XII.

From my 1957 Confraternity bible, with its Confraternity NT (from Vg), Douay OT, except for Genesis - Ruth and Job - Sirach, I never had the impression the latter 15 books were from the original language texts. As far as I knew then (early 60s), these were newly translated from some Latin version. I somehow believe the publishers - or maybe the hierarchy itself - wanted me to think this way.

 

[Manfred]

But how does that fit with the descriptions of the Psalms in these two examples?:

1956 Confraternity Bible

1951 Confraternity Bible

Oh, my dog! I just looked at Psalm 87, with its thees and thous; it’s not the Douay, it’s not the NAB. I’m at a loss.

I wonder if this version exists as a separate volume (pre-owned, of course); I’d like one.

 

[mmortal03]

What these Confraternity bibles, as well as the 1970 NAB, have is a translation into English from the same Hebrew that was used for the (Latin) Liber Psalmorum of Pius XII.

Does that “same Hebrew” have a name that people refer to it by?

 

[mmortal03]

Oh, my dog! I just looked at Psalm 87, with its thees and thous; it’s not the Douay, it’s not the NAB. I’m at a loss.

I wonder if this version exists as a separate volume (pre-owned, of course); I’d like one.

where on that 1956 page do you see examples of Psalms? I definitely see the interesting Psalms listed on the 1951 page, but where is it on this 1956 page?: cgi.ebay.com/Holy-Bible-Catholic-Edition_W0QQitemZ260133526070QQihZ016QQcategoryZ29223QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Edit: I pasted in the wrong link. Now it is right.

 

[mmortal03]

Oh, my dog! I just looked at Psalm 87, with its thees and thous; it’s not the Douay, it’s not the NAB. I’m at a loss.

I wonder if this version exists as a separate volume (pre-owned, of course); I’d like one.

I think what you (and we) are looking for are referred to as the Olinger Psalms, or possibly the Confraternity Psalms, mentioned at the following link at a couple different points: kellerbook.com/LANGUA~2.HTM (search the page for Olinger first and read around).

Edit: Also, look at the comparison table where it differentiates between the CCD (1941) and the CCD - Olinger (1950). Compare these to each other and to the DR and let us know what you think.

 

[Cranch]

I think what you (and we) are looking for are referred to as the Olinger Psalms, or possibly the Confraternity Psalms, mentioned at the following link at a couple different points: kellerbook.com/LANGUA~2.HTM (search the page for Olinger first and read around).

Edit: Also, look at the comparison table where it differentiates between the CCD (1941) and the CCD - Olinger (1950). Compare these to each other and to the DR and let us know what you think.

Excellent link, mmortal03. It appears (as touched on at the link) the pre-Vat II English text “landscape” was pretty wide open. As to the Psalms, there seems to be no clear progression based on bible copyright dates of which text is used. For example, it seems confirmed that the Olinger Psalter (1950) is in most Confraternity bibles and the pre-1991 NAB. I also have confirmed it in my older Confraternity “family” (big) bible copyright 1950. It is the only part of that bible’s OT not from the D-R. However, this 1951 edition uses a different, apparently older version. As Manfred said:

Oh, my dog! I just looked at Psalm 87, with its thees and thous; it’s not the Douay, it’s not the NAB. I’m at a loss.

I keep going back to what its title page says:***a New Translation of the Book of Psalms from the New Latin Version Approved by Pope Pius XII ***
Why can’t we take that statement at face value? I’m reluctant to rule out the possibility of an English translation of Pius XII’s Latin *Novum **Psalterium.
*

The Wikipedia page thought that that the Confraternity translation of the Psalms went in when the New Testament came out. I corrected a lot of the page two nights ago, but I left that bit in, until we could refute it. We need some 1941-1949 Confraternity Bibles to look at.

The chart from your link above could be evidence to back this up. It shows a unique Psalter attributed to the Confraternity of Christian Doctrine dated 1941, the same year as the Confraternity NT. It uses archaic second person singular pronouns as does the Confraternity NT, which we know was not done from the original languages but from the Vulgate. My money is on this Psalter being from what would have been the Confraternity update of the Vulgate OT, before Pius XII issued *Divino Afflante Spiritu *in 1943 and turned that project on its head. The funny thing is, if this 1941 Psalter was made from the Latin, it still can’t be the one used in the 1951 Bible above, because Pius XII’s *Novum **Psalterium, *which is referenced on its title page, didn’t appear until 1945. You’re right: we need to see a pre-1950 complete Confraternity bible and compare its Psalms to the chart or the Psalm 87 photo. :hypno:

 

[mmortal03]

Ok, after further analysis, it seems as if the 1950 Olinger version is the same as the 1970 NAB version. It is the 1941 CCD version that is in those Confraternity Bibles like the 1951 link above.

Edit: Ah, I see Cranch beat me to it.

The funny thing is, if this 1941 Psalter was made from the Latin, it still can’t be the one used in the 1951 Bible above, because Pius XII’s Novum Psalterium, which is referenced on its title page, didn’t appear until 1945.

Well, yes, those 1951 Confraternity Bible Psalms can’t be from the Novum Psalterium if the title page is correct in stating “a New Translation of the Book of Psalms from the New Latin Version Approved by Pope Pius XII”. So, if those Psalms in that 1951 Bible don’t match the 1941 CCD stuff on that page, either, then we have THREE different versions of the Psalms here!

Edit: From that page I linked to:

4 Confraternity of Christian Doctrine (CCD) translation of 1941. This Psalter translation was the predecessor to Olinger’s version, although it was based on the “Vulgate” or “Gallican” Latin version of the Psalter. It was still in use in 1951 for Benziger Brothers’ (4 - volume) The Roman Breviary in English, and based on the Douay-Rheims-Challoner version of the Bible, was a standard translation familiar to many Catholics.

I figured that the 1941 version was probably a revision of the Douay Psalms. I am really thinking that that 1951 Bible’s title page is inaccurate, and that it actually DOESN’T contain the translation of the Pius XII Psalms, but instead contains the 1941 CCD Psalms that were revised from the Challoner.

 

[Cranch]

I figured that the 1941 version was probably a revision of the Douay Psalms. I am really thinking that that 1951 Bible’s title page is inaccurate, and that it actually DOESN’T contain the translation of the Pius XII Psalms, but instead contains the 1941 CCD Psalms that were revised from the Challoner.

mmortal03 - It was your inquiry, was it not, that resulted in the photo of Psalm 87 from this 1951 Confraternity bible.? Maybe in the interests of contributing to the general good you could push your luck and ask for a picture of Psalm 129 (130) Out of the depths… Then we could make a definitive comparison with the CCD 1941 in the table. I’m betting they don’t match. Of course one of us could actually buy the guy’s bible…

 

[mmortal03]

mmortal03 - It was your inquiry, was it not, that resulted in the photo of Psalm 87 from this 1951 Confraternity bible.? Maybe in the interests of contributing to the general good you could push your luck and ask for a picture of Psalm 129 (130) Out of the depths… Then we could make a definitive comparison with the CCD 1941 in the table. I’m betting they don’t match. Of course one of us could actually buy the guy’s bible…

I am one step ahead of you.

 

[mmortal03]

She got back to me. We have a winner. It is not the Douay Rheims Challoner, The 1941 CCD, the 1950 Olinger (1970 NAB), the 1955 Mary Perkins Ryan, or the Knox. I think I may buy this one so we can do some deeper analysis.

Out of the depths I cry to thee, O Lord, O Lord, hear my voice! Let thy ears be attentive to the voice of my supplication. If thou didst keep count of offenses, O Lord, O Lord, who would endure it? But with thee is forgiveness of sins, that men may serve thee with reverence. In the Lord do I hope, my soul hopes in his word; my soul waits expectantly for the Lord, more than night watchmen for the coming of dawn. More than night watchmen for the coming of dawn does Israel await the Lord, because with the Lord there is mercy and with him there is plentiful redemption; and he shall redeem Israel from all its iniquities. The fancier Leather Bible which is Red Psalm 129: Out of the depths I cry to you, O Lord; Lord, hear my voice! Let your ears be attentive to my voice in supplication: If you, O Lord, mark iniquities, Lord, who can stand? But with you is forgiveness, that you may be revered. I trust in the Lord; my soul trusts in his word. My soul waits for the Lord more than sentinels wait for the dawn. More than sentinels wait for the dawn, let Israel wait for the Lord, for with the Lord is kindness and with him is plenteious redemption; and he will redeem Israel from all their iniquities.

 

[Cranch]

She got back to me. We have a winner. It is not the Douay Rheims Challoner, The 1941 CCD, the 1950 Olinger (1970 NAB), the 1955 Mary Perkins Ryan, or the Knox. I think I may buy this one so we can do some deeper analysis.

Hello 1945 *Novum *Psalterium?

 

[mmortal03]

Hello 1945 *Novum *Psalterium?

I would guess not, because that is what the Olinger version is based on…but it could be another English translation of it with thees and thous…who knows?