RSV-CE Needs Correction - Confraternity Psalms (Split Thread)

[Cranch]

I would guess not, because that is what the Olinger version is based on…but it could be another English translation of it with thees and thous…who knows?

Here’s what I’m thinking as of right now: Olinger=NAB Psalms. NAB intro seems to indicate these were based on the Hebrew underlying the Latin *Novum **Psalterium *(which they call *Liber Psalmorum). *See Manfred’s post#499. So, Olinger=based on Hebrew; notwithstanding the description here which is not written in grammatical English. My simple idea is: this mystery Psalter is what the 1951 Bible title page says it is—a translation from the new Latin version, in other words Latin into English. Why might this have been done? Maybe someone saw the Olinger as potentially having alternate renderings from the already approved *Novum **Psalterium *and decided a “translation of the translation” (Latin —> English) would be safer. Two things are for sure. 1. They are not the same version; and 2. there is a reason for that. We just aren’t sure what it is yet!

 

[mmortal03]

Here’s what I’m thinking as of right now: Olinger=NAB Psalms. NAB intro seems to indicate these were based on the Hebrew underlying the Latin *Novum **Psalterium *(which they call *Liber Psalmorum). *See Manfred’s post#499. So, Olinger=based on Hebrew; notwithstanding the description here which is not written in grammatical English. My simple idea is: this mystery Psalter is what the 1951 Bible title page says it is—a translation from the new Latin version, in other words Latin into English. Why might this have been done? Maybe someone saw the Olinger as potentially having alternate renderings from the already approved *Novum **Psalterium *and decided a “translation of the translation” (Latin —> English) would be safer. Two things are for sure. 1. They are not the same version; and 2. there is a reason for that. We just aren’t sure what it is yet!

Okay, that makes sense that that page is wrong about the Olinger coming from the Latin.

Here is the rest of ebay that have the Psalms in a “translation from the new Latin version”:

cgi.ebay.com/HOLY-BIBLE-NEW-AMERICAN-CATHOLIC-EDITION_W0QQitemZ260132392060QQihZ016QQcategoryZ29223QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
cgi.ebay.com/Holy-Bible-Catholic-Edition_W0QQitemZ260133526070QQihZ016QQcategoryZ29223QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

both of which I may bid on.

The following two are sold by Carol, the same person who has the 1951 Bible that has kindly been looking the stuff up. I am going to ask her to take a look at them, since I can’t afford the 199 dollars!!!

cgi.ebay.com/Douay-Gutenberg-Catholic-Family-Bible-Edition-1953_W0QQitemZ160112771575QQihZ006QQcategoryZ29223QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQcmdZViewItem
cgi.ebay.com/Douay-Gutenberg-Catholic-Family-Bible-Edition-1953_W0QQitemZ160123067307QQihZ006QQcategoryZ29223QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQcmdZViewItem

Also, take a look at these two, which I may bid on:
cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=140132415755&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=004
cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=250136460337&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=015

 

[mmortal03]

One can still buy the item at the very last link for cheap online, brand new. It is called “My Daily Psalm Book” Joseph B. Frey, Director of the Confraternity of the Precious Blood, Brooklyn, NY. Copyright 1947 by the Confraternity. 370 pages. Published by the Confraternity of Precious Blood, Brooklyn, NY.

It says clearly: “New English Translation from the New Latin Version.”

I am going to order one of these before I put down the 50+ dollars. That dual latin-english one (the second to the last one) looks tempting, though.

 

[Cranch]

Okay, that makes sense that that page is wrong about the Olinger coming from the Latin.

Here is the rest of ebay that have the Psalms in a “translation from the new Latin version”:

cgi.ebay.com/HOLY-BIBLE-NEW-AMERICAN-CATHOLIC-EDITION_W0QQitemZ260132392060QQihZ016QQcategoryZ29223QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
cgi.ebay.com/Holy-Bible-Catholic-Edition_W0QQitemZ260133526070QQihZ016QQcategoryZ29223QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

both of which I may bid on.

The following two are sold by Carol, the same person who has the 1951 Bible that has kindly been looking the stuff up. I am going to ask her to take a look at them, since I can’t afford the 199 dollars!!!

cgi.ebay.com/Douay-Gutenberg-Catholic-Family-Bible-Edition-1953_W0QQitemZ160112771575QQihZ006QQcategoryZ29223QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQcmdZViewItem
cgi.ebay.com/Douay-Gutenberg-Catholic-Family-Bible-Edition-1953_W0QQitemZ160123067307QQihZ006QQcategoryZ29223QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQcmdZViewItem

Also, take a look at these two, which I may bid on:
cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=140132415755&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=004
cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=250136460337&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=015

Helpful as she’s been, I have to say this Carol is high on the prices, including the 1951. The Gutenbergs are in good shape and hey, whatever the market will bear, right? But unless there was a cheaper version with the same cover, I’m pretty sure I’ve seen this edition more than once selling somewhere in the $15–30 range on ebay.

 

[Cranch]

Manfred - I want to apologize for my part in this now 40-odd-post hijacking! It has been interesting though. Do the mods have the power to strip them out and create a new thread?

 

[mmortal03]

I have also found that Latin-English version for a lot cheaper online and am buying it. I also found two very interesting journal articles from the 1940s era referring to/reviewing the Pius XII “New Latin Version from the Hebrew”, from which, if we are right, that these English translations were then made from, and the Benzinger Brothers text below, that I have now also purchased.

One is from the Jewish Quarterly Review, and goes into great depth.

The other is from the Journal of Bible and Religion, and is excellent in its knowledge of the era.

I can’t post the journal articles directly, though, because I only have access by way of my university’s login, so PM me and we can work out something.

The Psalms. a Prayer Book. Also the Canticles of the Roman Breviary. New English Translation…Including the New Latin Version From the Hebrew By the Professors of the Pontifical Biblical Institute Book
by Authorized By Pope Pius XII
Publisher: Benziger Brothers
Date Published: 1946
Description: Latin and English in parallel columns. Small 8vo, xvi + 416pp. + 29pp. (index).

The Jewish Quarterly Review, New Ser., Vol. 38, No. 3. (Jan., 1948), pp. 267-288.

Journal of Bible and Religion, Vol. 14, No. 4. (Nov., 1946), pp. 198-202.

 

[Jerry-Jet]

So here’s a question for all of you translation of a translation haters out there:

How does this English from Latin from Hebrew translation of the Psalms stack up against the NAB’s tranlation of the Hebrew directly to English?

And how do both stack up to the RSV-CE Psalms?

Can clear superiority be shown for translating directly from Hebrew to English versus translating form Hebrew to Latin to English?

Are translations of translations by definition inferior?

If that is always not the case then what would be wrong with an Englsh Translation of the Nova Vulgata which likewise translated from Hebrew to Latin to English?

And if someone accused a translation like that of being just a translation of a translation–what if the person said–we did go back to the original languages and Concurred with the Nova Vulgata.

Would the hierarchy of the Catholic Church say that it was wrong to concurr with the Nova Vulgata?

My whole point is just because the RSV in any of its editions are the NAB in any of its editions goes back to Hebrew does not by definition mean that it is a superior translation to one that would be a translation of a translation.

Give me a translation of a translation–the Nova Vulgata into English over the RSV or the NAB anyday!

What would be even better would be a translation of the Nova Vulgata into English with only slight changes that might be due to more recent ancient text evidence that has been discovered wsince 1979 when the Nova Vulgata was published…

I’m sure that wouldn’t please all the NAB supporters or the RSV supporters–it would give Catholics a real Catholic bible that would be more accurate than anything out there.

And what’s more important–reassuring ourselves that the ancient texts have been translated from–even though we don’t know Which Texts or what rationale was used for those choices

OR

relying on the Nova Vulgata and polishing it with the most recent discoveries in ancient texts?

 

[Manfred]

Manfred - I want to apologize for my part in this now 40-odd-post hijacking! It has been interesting though. Do the mods have the power to strip them out and create a new thread?

Cranch,

Bless your heart, but no need to apologize.

It would be interesting for the moderator to excerpt these Psalter-centric posts and move them to a new thread, but probably not very easy without some help.

Worst case: the posts remain within this thread. Since the RSV-CE is not going to receive many of the corrections suggested herein, then a discussion of alternative Psalters, be they from a Hebrew or a Latin original, could indicate how dis-satisfied some of us are with the RSV-CE and RSV-2CE Psalters.

 

[Manfred]

One can still buy the item at the very last link for cheap online, brand new. It is called “My Daily Psalm Book” Joseph B. Frey, Director of the Confraternity of the Precious Blood, Brooklyn, NY. Copyright 1947 by the Confraternity. 370 pages. Published by the Confraternity of Precious Blood, Brooklyn, NY.

It says clearly: “New English Translation from the New Latin Version.”

I am going to order one of these before I put down the 50+ dollars. That dual latin-english one (the second to the last one) looks tempting, though.

mmortal,

Would you and Cranch mind collaborating (offlne if necessary) and produce a definitive comparison of all these Psalters you’ve discovered the past few days?

Bigger mystery: did anyone, think ye, from the hierarchy and/or the Catholic publishing houses suppress these in favor of the Psalter that became part of the 1970 NAB?

 

[SFH]

Oh, my dog! I just looked at Psalm 87, with its thees and thous; it’s not the Douay, it’s not the NAB. I’m at a loss.

I wonder if this version exists as a separate volume (pre-owned, of course); I’d like one.

Perhaps I can help out a bit. First, there’s the Douay-Rheims Challoner translation of Psalms (based on the Septuagint). Then, there’s two translations of Pope Pius XII Psalter in Latin. The first uses thee, thou, and ye. I have a Confraternity Edition published by Catholic Book Publishing Co. with a 1948 copyright that has all Douay Rheims Old Testament (except for the Psalms I just described) and Confraternity New Testament. There’s a second translation of Pope Pius XII Psalter, but it doesn’t use the thees and thous. My understanding is that is started to appear in the Confraternity Bibles around 1950.

Incidentally, this was the translation that was originally included in the NAB, but in the 1990s, they revised the translation to include “inclusive” language, changed “netherworld” to “sheol,” etc.

An easy way to tell what version you have is to look at Psalm 23 (22). In the Douay-Rheims, it says “the Lord ruleth me.” In both of the Confraternity versions, it says “the Lord is my shepherd.” You can figure out which Confraternity version you have by looking to see whether it uses “thee” and “thou” (the older version) or only “you” (the newer version). Lastly, you can tell whether you have the “inclusive” language Psalms or the older Confraternity Psalms by looking to see whether they translate hell as "netherworld (Confraternity) or “sheol” (Inclusive Language Version).

Hope that helps.

(Manfred, you mentioned Andover. If you’re in the New England area, you might try the Catholic bookstore across from St. Anthony’s Shrine in Boston if they’re still around. I found a copy of the older version of Psalms at that bookstore about six years ago."

 

[SFH]

How does this English from Latin from Hebrew translation of the Psalms stack up against the NAB’s tranlation of the Hebrew directly to English?

I’ll let you be the judge of that … In my opinion, the differences are minor (and generally the 1948 Confraternity Psalter is closer to the Hebrew than the newer Confraternity translation or the NAB “inclusive” language translation.

NAB Psalm 1

“Happy those who do not follow the counsel of the wicked, Nor go the way of sinners, nor sit in company with scoffers. Rather, the law of the Lord is their joy; God’s law they study day and night. They are like a tree planted near streams of water, that yields its fruit in season; Its leaves never wither; whatever they do prospers. But not the wicked! They are like chaff driven by the wind. …”

Confraternity Psalm 1 (1950)

“Happy the man who follows not the counsel of the wicked, nor walks in the way of sinners, nor sits in the company of the insolent, but delights in the law of the Lord and meditates on his law day and night. He is like a tree planted near running water, that yields its fruit in due season and whose leaves never fade. [Whatever he does, prospers.] Not so the wicked, not so; they are like chaff which the wind drives away…”

Confraternity Psalm 1 (1948)

“Blessed is the man who follows not the counsel of the wicked, nor walks in the way of sinners, nor sits in the company of the insolent; but his delight is in the law of the Lord, and on that law he meditates day and night. And he is like a tree planted near running waters, which brings forth its fruit in due season, and whose leaves do not wither, and whatsoever he does, prospers. Not so the wicked, not so; but they are like chaff scattered by the wind…”

 

[Jerry-Jet]

Is it just me or does the 1948 version of the Confraternity sounds more musical and has a better cadence?

I think Blessed is much better than Happy.

I even think the NAB sounds better than the later version of the Confraternity.

My vote is for the early Confraternity version.

 

[mmortal03]

Perhaps I can help out a bit. First, there’s the Douay-Rheims Challoner translation of Psalms (based on the Septuagint). Then, there’s two translations of Pope Pius XII Psalter in Latin. The first uses thee, thou, and ye. I have a Confraternity Edition published by Catholic Book Publishing Co. with a 1948 copyright that has all Douay Rheims Old Testament (except for the Psalms I just described) and Confraternity New Testament. There’s a second translation of Pope Pius XII Psalter, but it doesn’t use the thees and thous. My understanding is that is started to appear in the Confraternity Bibles around 1950.

Incidentally, this was the translation that was originally included in the NAB, but in the 1990s, they revised the translation to include “inclusive” language, changed “netherworld” to “sheol,” etc.

Are you sure that they are both from the Latin? Is that what their title pages say? It seems to me, due to the amount of differences other than removing archaic language, likely that the 1948 version and the 1950 version came from two different sources, but it could just be wishful thinking on my part. How do your two bibles compare to the following page?: kellerbook.com/LANGUA~2.HTM

 

[mmortal03]

Update, her 200 dollar “Gutenberg” anniversary bibles, not to be confused with the Gutenberg Bible, have the Olinger - Psalms in them, so need to put in on those

She mentioned to me that she has another bible from 1952 that also has the Psalms the same as that 1951 bible from above (I checked them text side by side), and she just hasn’t put it up yet. (she could sell it to me for 79.99… I might as well buy the 1951 bible for 59.99 here …she knows I am only interested in the Psalms here!)

Ok, so we still haven’t found one of these Bibles to contain the 1941 CCD Psalter from that comparison page. Does your 1948 bible match that, SFH?

 

[Manfred]

This makes me sad–it means that if you get a Confraternity bible with the psalms you get a NAB junky version of them.

Jerry-Jet,

The only “junky version” of the Psalms among those we’re discussing are those of the revised 1991 NAB Psalter.

 

[mmortal03]

Jerry-Jet,

The only “junky version” of the Psalms among those we’re discussing are those of the revised 1991 NAB Psalter.

Were the 1970’s Psalms part of the what was criticized as “too periphrastic” or were they ok? How were the 1970 NAB Psalms initially received?

 

[Cranch]

mmortal,

Would you and Cranch mind collaborating (offlne if necessary) and produce a definitive comparison of all these Psalters you’ve discovered the past few days?

Bigger mystery: did anyone, think ye, from the hierarchy and/or the Catholic publishing houses suppress these in favor of the Psalter that became part of the 1970 NAB?

First question: We’ll see. Could be fun. Could also be a morass!
Second question: IMHO a most definite possibility, but in charity, if it was done, it could have been motivated by Divino Afflante Spiritu.

 

[Cranch]

Are you sure that they are both from the Latin? Is that what their title pages say?

Wondered this too.

It seems to me, due to the amount of differences other than removing archaic language, likely that the 1948 version and the 1950 version came from two different sources, but it could just be wishful thinking on my part. How do your two bibles compare to the following page?: kellerbook.com/LANGUA~2.HTM

You could be right, but I was thinking the opposite. To me they seem closer than Olinger to CCD 1941 in the kellerbook sample. In any case SFH’s 1950 version is Olinger aka eventual 1970 NAB. I’m still operating on the idea this version was done from the Hebrew based on the line from the NAB intro shown here, though I’d like to see more about Olinger’s base text. That leaves the 1948 version… could be CCD 1941, could be the “mystery psalter” of which we have only seen psalm 87 and 129. SFH?

 

[mmortal03]

I thought this was at least the last version, but nope, check this out, I contacted the seller of the one similar to the “My Daily Psalm Book” that I ordered, and it doesn’t match any of the others we have talked about in this thread, including the DR:

Item: 1947 CATHOLIC PRAYER BOOK ~ MY DAILY PSALM BOOK Fr Frey​

It says “Out of the depths I cry to thee, O Lord, O Lord, hear my voice! Let thy ears be attentive to the voice of my supplication. If thou shouldst remember sins, O Lord, O Lord, who could bear it? But with thee is forgiveness, that thou mayest be served with reverence. I hope in the Lord, my soul hopes in his word; my soul waits for the Lord, more than watchmen for the dawn. More than watchmen for the dawn, let Israel wait for the Lord. For with the Lord is mercy, and with him is plenteous redemption. And he shall redeem Israel from all his sins.”

Compared to:

1951 and 1952 Confraternity Bibles from Carol:

"Out of the depths I cry to thee, O Lord, O Lord, hear my voice! Let thy ears be attentive to the voice of my supplication. If thou didst keep count of offenses, O Lord, O Lord, who would endure it? But with thee is forgiveness of sins, that men may serve thee with reverence. In the Lord do I hope, my soul hopes in his word; my soul waits expectantly for the Lord, more than night watchmen for the coming of dawn. More than night watchmen for the coming of dawn does Israel await the Lord, because with the Lord there is mercy and with him there is plentiful redemption; and he shall redeem Israel from all its iniquities. "

Challoner:

"1 Out of the depths I have cried to thee, O Lord: 2 Lord, hear my voice. Let thy ears be attentive to the voice of my supplication. 3 If thou, O Lord, wilt mark iniquities: Lord, who shall stand it. 4 For with thee there is merciful forgiveness: and by reason of thy law, I have waited for thee, O Lord. My soul hath relied on his word: 5 My soul hath hoped in the Lord.

6 From the morning watch even until night, let Israel hope in the Lord. 7 Because with the Lord there is mercy: and with him plentiful redemption. 8 And he shall redeem Israel from all his iniquities. "

CCD
(1941)
Out of the depths I cry to thee, O Lord, * Lord, hear my voice!
Let thy ears become attentive * to the voice of my supplication.
If thou, O Lord, shouldst keep the memory of offenses, * Lord, who shall stand?
But with thee is forgiveness of sin, * so that thou art served with reverential fear.
I hope in the Lord, * my soul hopes in his word;
My soul longs for the Lord, * more than watchmen for the dawn.
More than watchmen for the dawn, * let Israel long for the Lord,
Because with the Lord there is mercy, * and with him plentiful redemption:
And he shall redeem Israel * from all her iniquities.

CCD - Olinger
(1950)
Out of the depths I cry to you, O Lord; *
Lord, hear my voice
Let your ears be attentive * to my voice in supplication:
If you, O Lord, mark iniquities, * Lord, who can stand?
But with you is forgiveness, * that you may be revered
I trust in the Lord; * my soul trusts in his word.
My soul waits for the Lord * more than sentinels wait for the dawn.
More than sentinels wait for the dawn, * let Israel wait for the Lord.
For with the Lord is kindness and with him is plenteous redemption.

And he will redeem Israel * from all their iniquities.

Mary Perkins Ryan, 1955
Out of the depths I cry to you, O Lord, * Lord, hear my voice!
O listen intently, * hear the cry of my supplication.
If you, O Lord, were mindful of our sins, * Lord, who could endure it?
Bur forgiveness is yours, * so that with reverence men may serve you!
I hope in the Lord, * my soul hopes in his word:
My soul looks to the Lord, * more than watchmen look for daybreak.
More than watchmen look for daybreak, * let Israel look to the Lord:
For mercy is the Lord’s * and abundant redemption:
He will redeem Israel * from all his iniquities.

Knox
Out of the depths I cry to thee, O Lord; * Master, listen to my voice;
Let thy ears be attentive * to the voice that calls on thee for pardon.
If thou, O Lord, wilt keep record of our iniquities, * Master who has the strength to bear it?
Ah, but with thee there is forgiveness; * be thy name ever revered.
I wait for the Lord, * for his word of promise my soul waits;
Patient my soul waits, * as ever watchman that looked for the day.
Patient as watchman at dawn, * for the Lord Israel waits.
The Lord with whom there is mercy, * with whom is abundant power to ransom.
He it is that will ransom Israel * from all his iniquities.

SFH’s 1948 Confraternity: ?

 

[mmortal03]

Here is an example of a 1950 Confraternity Bible with the Douay Psalms:

cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=270137643447&sspagename=ADME:L:RTQ:US:1

Hi all, for your bidding consideration is this 1950 Douay-Confraternity Edition of The Old Testament and New Confraternity Version of The New Testament by Kennedy and Sons, New York.

IMPRIMATUR

FRANCIS CARDINAL SPELLMAN Archbishop of New York April 10, 1950