RSV-CE Needs Correction - Confraternity Psalms (Split Thread)

[Jerry-Jet]

Could it be that they regarded the earliest Latin translations of the Greek which Jerome first translated from more than Jerome’s later translations of the Greek?

Is the Ambrosian Rite still celebrated?

I’m always thrilled with anything in the Liturgy of any Rite that is pre-Tridentine.

I’m not a Douay Rheims onlyist. I’m a more ancient the better as long as it’s Catholic and more accurate onlyist.

 

[mmortal03]

Douay-Rheims (Challoner):

Out of the depths I have cried to thee, O Lord: Lord, hear my voice. Let thy ears be attentive to the voice of my supplication. If thou, O Lord, wilt mark iniquities: Lord, who shall stand it. For with thee there is merciful forgiveness: and by reason of thy law, I have waited for thee, O Lord. My soul hath relied on his word: My soul hath hoped in the Lord. From the morning watch even until night, let Israel hope in the Lord. Because with the Lord there is mercy: and with him plentiful redemption. And he shall redeem Israel from all his iniquities.

**Supposed “CCD 1941” (clearly is what the 1945-NETfromNLV came from, but we have not found this one in any bible or text yet) **

Out of the depths I cry to thee, O Lord, Lord, hear my voice! Let thy ears become attentive to the voice of my supplication. If thou, O Lord, shouldst keep the memory of offenses, Lord, who shall stand? But with thee is forgiveness of sin, so that thou art served with reverential fear. I hope in the Lord, my soul hopes in his word; My soul longs for the Lord, more than watchmen for the dawn. More than watchmen for the dawn, let Israel long for the Lord, Because with the Lord there is mercy, and with him plentiful redemption: And he shall redeem Israel from all her iniquities.

1945-NETfromNLV, found in
1954 THE LIGHT OF THE WORLD CATHOLIC EDITION NEW AMERICAN CATHOLIC EDITION (Confraternity NT, Challoner OT, these Psalms)
and in
“The Psalms: A Prayerbook, also the Canticles of the Roman Breviary in Latin and English” 1946 - Benziger Bros., ©1945. “New English Translation with Ecclesiastical Approbation including The New Latin Version From the Hebrew by The Professors of the Pontifical Biblical Institute Authorized by Pope Pius XII.”:

Out of the depths I cry unto thee, O Lord, Lord, hear my voice! Let thine ears become attentive to the voice of my supplication. If thou, O Lord, keep the memory of offenses, Lord, who shall stand? But with thee there is forgiveness of sins, so that thou art served with reverential fear. I hope in the Lord, my soul hopes in his word; My soul longs for the Lord, More than watchmen for the dawn. More than watchmen for the dawn, Israel longs for the Lord, Because with the Lord there is mercy and with him plentiful redemption: And he shall redeem Israel from all her iniquities.

1947-NETfromNLV found in
“My Daily Psalm Book” Fr. Frey 1947-NETfromNLV
“The New English Translation from the New Latin Version” (not found in any bibles so far):

Out of the depths I cry to thee, O Lord, O Lord, hear my voice! Let thy ears be attentive to the voice of my supplication. If thou shouldst remember sins, O Lord, O Lord, who could bear it? But with thee is forgiveness, that thou mayest be served with reverence. I hope in the Lord, my soul hopes in his word; my soul waits for the Lord, more than watchmen for the dawn. More than watchmen for the dawn, let Israel wait for the Lord, For with the Lord is mercy and with him is plenteous redemption: And he shall redeem Israel from all its sins.

Carol’s 1951 & 1952 Confraternity Bibles;
SFH’s 1948 Confraternity; lak611’s Confraternity © 1949-1951-1952:

Out of the depths I cry to thee, O Lord, O Lord, hear my voice! Let thy ears be attentive to the voice of my supplication. If thou didst keep count of offenses, O Lord, O Lord, who would endure it? But with thee is forgiveness of sins, that men may serve thee with reverence. In the Lord do I hope, my soul hopes in his word; my soul waits expectantly for the Lord, more than night watchmen for the coming of dawn. More than night watchmen for the coming of dawn does Israel await the Lord, because with the Lord there is mercy and with him there is plentiful redemption; and he shall redeem Israel from all its iniquities.

CCD 1950 (Olinger);
Cranch’s 1950 Confraternity; 1957 Confraternity Bibles; 1970 NAB

Out of the depths I cry to you, O Lord; Lord, hear my voice
Let your ears be attentive to my voice in supplication: If you, O Lord, mark iniquities, Lord, who can stand? But with you is forgiveness, that you may be revered I trust in the Lord; my soul trusts in his word. My soul waits for the Lord more than sentinels wait for the dawn. More than sentinels wait for the dawn, let Israel wait for the Lord. For with the Lord is kindness and with him is plenteous redemption. And he will redeem Israel from all their iniquities.

 

[mmortal03]

I just found our first actual Confraternity Bible on eBay that contains the 1945 Psalms, and have updated the above, as such. I don’t need it, but I thought Jerry-Jet might be interested in it. It is what he basically wants, all in one package:

cgi.ebay.com/HOLY-BIBLE-CATHOLIC-LIGHT-OF-THE-WORLD-EDITION-NIB-1954_W0QQitemZ230149619603QQihZ013QQcategoryZ378QQtcZphotoQQcmdZViewItem

 

[Cranch]

They’re not as common as the typical Confraternity hybrid OT editions. You might be interested in this one from 1954. I believe it is essentially the same bible as the 1948 in question (check the title page photo).

I just found our first actual Confraternity Bible on eBay that contains the 1945 Psalms, and have updated the above, as such. I don’t need it, but I thought Jerry-Jet might be interested in it. It is what he basically wants, all in one package:

cgi.ebay.com/HOLY-BIBLE-CATHOLIC-LIGHT-OF-THE-WORLD-EDITION-NIB-1954_W0QQitemZ230149619603QQihZ013QQcategoryZ378QQtcZphotoQQcmdZViewItem

As you can see above, I alerted Jerry-Jet to this very bible in post#551! It is the twin of one I bought and which has recently arrived but I haven’t studied it yet.

 

[mmortal03]

Some more corrections and updates. Psalm 129:

Douay-Rheims (Challoner):

Out of the depths I have cried to thee, O Lord: Lord, hear my voice. Let thy ears be attentive to the voice of my supplication. If thou, O Lord, wilt mark iniquities: Lord, who shall stand it. For with thee there is merciful forgiveness: and by reason of thy law, I have waited for thee, O Lord. My soul hath relied on his word: My soul hath hoped in the Lord. From the morning watch even until night, let Israel hope in the Lord. Because with the Lord there is mercy: and with him plentiful redemption. And he shall redeem Israel from all his iniquities.

**Supposed “CCD 1941” (clearly is what the 1945-NETfromNLV came from, but we have not found this one in any bible or text yet) **

Out of the depths I cry to thee, O Lord, Lord, hear my voice! Let thy ears become attentive to the voice of my supplication. If thou, O Lord, shouldst keep the memory of offenses, Lord, who shall stand? But with thee is forgiveness of sin, so that thou art served with reverential fear. I hope in the Lord, my soul hopes in his word; My soul longs for the Lord, more than watchmen for the dawn. More than watchmen for the dawn, let Israel long for the Lord, Because with the Lord there is mercy, and with him plentiful redemption: And he shall redeem Israel from all her iniquities.

1945-NETfromNLV, found in 1954 THE LIGHT OF THE WORLD CATHOLIC EDITION NEW AMERICAN CATHOLIC EDITION (Confraternity NT, Challoner OT, these Psalms)
and in
“The Psalms: A Prayerbook, also the Canticles of the Roman Breviary in Latin and English” 1946 - Benziger Bros., ©1945. “New English Translation with Ecclesiastical Approbation including The New Latin Version From the Hebrew by The Professors of the Pontifical Biblical Institute Authorized by Pope Pius XII.”:

Out of the depths I cry unto thee, O Lord, Lord, hear my voice! Let thine ears become attentive to the voice of my supplication. If thou, O Lord, keep the memory of offenses, Lord, who shall stand? But with thee there is forgiveness of sins, so that thou art served with reverential fear. I hope in the Lord, my soul hopes in his word; My soul longs for the Lord, More than watchmen for the dawn. More than watchmen for the dawn, Israel longs for the Lord, Because with the Lord there is mercy and with him plentiful redemption: And he shall redeem Israel from all her iniquities.

1947-NETfromNLV, found in
“My Daily Psalm Book” Fr. Frey 1947 “The New English Translation from the New Latin Version” (not found in any bibles so far):

Out of the depths I cry to thee, O Lord, O Lord, hear my voice! Let thy ears be attentive to the voice of my supplication. If thou shouldst remember sins, O Lord, O Lord, who could bear it? But with thee is forgiveness, that thou mayest be served with reverence. I hope in the Lord, my soul hopes in his word; my soul waits for the Lord, more than watchmen for the dawn. More than watchmen for the dawn, let Israel wait for the Lord, For with the Lord is mercy and with him is plenteous redemption: And he shall redeem Israel from all its sins.

SFH’s Confraternity 1948; lak611’s Confraternity © 1949-1951-1952: Carol’s Confraternity’s 1951 & 1952 (1951 one is Copyright, 1949-1951 Imprimatur: Francis Cardinal Spellman, Sept. 14, 1948, New Translation of the Book of Psalms from the New Latin Version Approved by Pope Pius XII )

Out of the depths I cry to thee, O Lord, O Lord, hear my voice! Let thy ears be attentive to the voice of my supplication. If thou didst keep count of offenses, O Lord, O Lord, who would endure it? But with thee is forgiveness of sins, that men may serve thee with reverence. In the Lord do I hope, my soul hopes in his word; my soul waits expectantly for the Lord, more than night watchmen for the coming of dawn. More than night watchmen for the coming of dawn does Israel await the Lord, because with the Lord there is mercy and with him there is plentiful redemption; and he shall redeem Israel from all its iniquities.

CCD 1950 (Olinger);
Cranch’s 1950 Confraternity; 1957 Confraternity Bibles; 1970 NAB

Out of the depths I cry to you, O Lord; Lord, hear my voice! Let your ears be attentive to my voice in supplication: If you, O Lord, mark iniquities, Lord, who can stand? But with you is forgiveness, that you may be revered I trust in the Lord; my soul trusts in his word. My soul waits for the Lord more than sentinels wait for the dawn. More than sentinels wait for the dawn, let Israel wait for the Lord. For with the Lord is kindness and with him is plenteous redemption. And he will redeem Israel from all their iniquities.

 

[mmortal03]

Knox version and Ryan version are omitted, because they can be confirmed to not be directly related (though, they, along with the Olinger version, are all supposedly translations of the Pius XII Psalms). The Fr. Frey version remains listed, because it directly states that it is “The New English Translation from the New Latin Version”, and seems similar to the SFH/lak611/Carol version.

Note that the “1941 CCD Psalms” is supposedly in the 1951 “The Roman Breviary in English”, Benziger Bros, if anyone could put a hand on this four volume set, it would be nice to take a look at it.

 

[mmortal03]

Knox version and Ryan version are omitted, because they can be confirmed to not be directly related (though, they, along with the Olinger version, are all supposedly translations of the Pius XII Psalms). The Fr. Frey version remains listed, because it directly states that it is “The New English Translation from the New Latin Version”, and seems similar to the SFH/lak611/Carol version.

Note that the “1941 CCD Psalms” is supposedly in the 1951 “The Roman Breviary in English”, Benziger Bros, if anyone could put a hand on this four volume set, it would be nice to take a look at it.

Ok, now I am making some progress. I just read on a different page that the Psalms in the 1951 “The Roman Breviary in English”, Benziger Bros, referred to above, may actually have just been an "English psalm translation based on the Pius XII Novum Psalterium, but still in the previous CCD translation (1941) style " (emphasis mine) and that the actual CCD 1941 Psalms can be found in the 1st Edition of “A Short Breviary for Religious and the Laity”, 1941. The English psalm translation for the 1st edition was made by Paschal Botz, OSB and Basil Stegmann, OSB. It should also be found in the 1st edition of “A SHORT BREVIARY” (1941), and the "Monastic Diurnal or The Day Hours of the Monastic Breviary (possibly 1948 through 1963).

This may account for some of the differences we have found.

 

[Cranch]

Ok, now I am making some progress. I just read on a different page that the Psalms in the 1951 “The Roman Breviary in English”, Benziger Bros, referred to above, may actually have just been an "English psalm translation based on the Pius XII Novum Psalterium, but still in the previous CCD translation (1941) style " (emphasis mine) and that the actual CCD 1941 Psalms can be found in the 1st Edition of “A Short Breviary for Religious and the Laity”, 1941. The English psalm translation for the 1st edition was made by Paschal Botz, OSB and Basil Stegmann, OSB. It should also be found in the 1st edition of “A SHORT BREVIARY” (1941), and the "Monastic Diurnal or The Day Hours of the Monastic Breviary (possibly 1948 through 1963).

This may account for some of the differences we have found.

Here is what I can report regarding the 1954 Light of the World Edition which may tie in with what I highlighted in red above. This was printed by The World Publishing Co. However, World Publishing Co. is just the outfit that here has reprinted The New American Catholic Edition, put a nice embossed cover on it, added (poor) reproductions of Old Master paintings and a “Gems of Thought” section ("the special contents of this book copyright 1954 by The World Publishing Co.).

Title page says:"…with Psalms from the new Latin version authorized by Pope Pius XII."
Copyright page says:“The translation of the Psalms has been made from the new Latin version made under the guidance of the Holy See. This translation with the appended notes has been approved.”
Also on the copyright page:New American Catholic Edition of the Holy Bible (except the text of the New Testament), copyright 1950, by Benziger Brothers, Inc.
Imprimatur: Cardinal Spellman, New York, January 18, 1952

As has been noted, the Psalms here match the 1946 Benziger “The Psalms: A Prayerbook” and it sounds like maybe the 1951 Benziger “The Roman Breviary in English.”

By the way, mmortal03, just curious: when and how did you connect (correctly) the Light of the World bible Psalms with the 1946 Benziger Prayerbook?

 

[Jerry-Jet]

mmortal03: Do you like any of the pre-Olinger versions of the Psalms? Do you think any of them are more accurate than the Olinger Psalms?

What do you think is more accurate–the RSV-CE when it comes to the Psalms, the Olinger/NAB Psalms, or any of the pre-Olinger Psalm varients that have been discussed and uncovered here?

 

[mmortal03]

By the way, mmortal03, just curious: when and how did you connect (correctly) the Light of the World bible Psalms with the 1946 Benziger Prayerbook?

I contacted the guy who was selling the other copy of it last week.

 

[mmortal03]

mmortal03: Do you like any of the pre-Olinger versions of the Psalms? Do you think any of them are more accurate than the Olinger Psalms?

What do you think is more accurate–the RSV-CE when it comes to the Psalms, the Olinger/NAB Psalms, or any of the pre-Olinger Psalm varients that have been discussed and uncovered here?

I can’t really comment on that. I would have to see some empirical research.

 

[mmortal03]

Two things:

1. Does anyone have access to the 1st Edition of “A Short Breviary for Religious and the Laity”, 1941. The English psalm translation for the 1st edition was made by Paschal Botz, OSB and Basil Stegmann, OSB.,

OR, does anyone have access to the 1st edition of “A SHORT BREVIARY” (1941),

OR does anyone have access to the "Monastic Diurnal or The Day Hours of the Monastic Breviary (possibly 1948 through 1963).

We need to get a hold of one of these to see if it matches the CCD 1941 Psalms that were posted on that page.

1. We were going to analyze SFH’s Confraternity 1948; lak611’s Confraternity 1949-1951-1952, or Cranch’s if he picked one up, but it got really quiet here the last week or two.

 

[Cranch]

Two things:

1. Does anyone have access to the 1st Edition of “A Short Breviary for Religious and the Laity”, 1941. The English psalm translation for the 1st edition was made by Paschal Botz, OSB and Basil Stegmann, OSB.,

OR, does anyone have access to the 1st edition of “A SHORT BREVIARY” (1941),

OR does anyone have access to the "Monastic Diurnal or The Day Hours of the Monastic Breviary (possibly 1948 through 1963).

We need to get a hold of one of these to see if it matches the CCD 1941 Psalms that were posted on that page.

1. We were going to analyze SFH’s Confraternity 1948; lak611’s Confraternity 1949-1951-1952, or Cranch’s if he picked one up, but it got really quiet here the last week or two.

Sorry, all I’ve got besides a couple of Olinger bibles is:

“The New American Catholic Edition of the Holy Bible (except the text of The New Testament) ©1950 Benziger Bros. Inc”—I’m going to start calling it NACE-Con—with Confraternity NT, Douay OT and Psalter from the New Latin Version which as you know, matches your ** “The Psalms: A Prayerbook, also the Canticles of the Roman Breviary in Latin and English” 1946 - Benziger Bros. **My particular copy is the 1954 Light of the World Edition (with an additional ©1954 for special contents), but that’s neither here nor there, really.

Couple of interesting tidbits I just noticed:

In my 1957 Confraternity (Olinger), below “New Edition - ©1957” is “©1952-1951-1949” (cf. lak611’s bible). My 1957 is from Catholic Book Publishing Co.

In my 1950 Confraternity (Olinger) ©1950 The Catholic Press, Inc., it says:

The parts of the text of the Pslams contained in this book are reproduced by license of Confraternity of Christian Doctrine, Washington, D.C., the owner of the copyright of “The Holy Bible, THE BOOK OF PSALMS and The Canticles of the Roman Breviary—Translated from the Original Languages.” Used with its permission. All rights reserved.

(Upper-case letters in original)

More confirmation Olinger is from the Hebrew. I think it is interesting to see Olinger in a complete bible as early as 1950 and yet find translations from Pius XII’s Latin (multiple English versions) in bibles copyrighted 1951, 1952, even 1954.

 

[mmortal03]

When this thread was split, the first one hundred posts (1-100) were missed. The Psalms discussion does not start until 101, so 1-100 need to be removed.

Edit: Also, posts 153, 154, 160, 179, 181, 183, 184, 193, and 199 need to be placed in the original thread.

 

[vladimir998]

• There is not likely to be either a new revision of the Douay-Rheims-Challoner version of the Bible or a translation into English of the Nova Vulgata.

Actually, I think there will be a new translation of the Vulgate within a handful of years. Some people have been calling for it for over a decade already. Also, the growing interest in Latin and the Vulgate I think will spur a translation. I hope someone produces a good interlinear so it can be used by homeschoolers and other students.

Already the Tweedsdale Vulgate is online. You can buy it from lulu.com. Wait with your money, however! Baronius Press is printing a really beautiful edition of the Vulgate to be released within the next year. There are also textbooks on reading the Vulgate sold through amazon.com. Even the original Douay Rheims is back in print! All of that leads me to believe someone will probably produce a good quality translation of the Vulgate in the next decade or so.

 

[mmortal03]

vladimir998, you are accidentally replying to the wrong thread. The first four posts of this thread should not be there, because the thread was split from the original RSV:CE Needs Corrections Thread, which you should have instead replied to. It isn’t your fault, though; one of the administrators needs to remove the first four posts of this thread and also move your post to the original thread.

 

[divineintimacy]

Can I resurrect this thread? There is a lot of good information here! I love the 1941 Confraternity (CCD) New Testament since it is a translation of the Latin Vulgate with reference to the original Greek rather than a translation from the original Greek. (IMHO St. Jerome’s proximity to the original Greek and the fact that he was a saint trumps the translation of a translation argument.) That’s why I’m not a big fan of the CCD Old Testament since it is a translation from the original languages. Consequently, I would be thrilled if there really were a pre-New Psalter (i.e. pre-1945) CCD translation of the Psalms out there. I am not convinced that there is.

The only reference I can find on the Web to a pre-1945 CCD translation of the Psalms is on the website already mentioned in this thread: www.kellerbook.com/LANGUA~2.HTM. As has already been skillfully shown in this thread, the version of Psalm 129 given on that site as the 1941 CCD translation clearly seems to be a translation of Pius XII’s New Psalter, which didn’t appear until 1945. Has anyone found any other references to the existence of a pre-1945 CCD translation of the Psalms? All indications are that the CCD translation of the Old Testament from the Latin Vulgate that had been begun was dropped in 1943 because of Divino Aflante Spiritu and never released to the public (www.bible-researcher.com/confraternity.html). Who knows whether they got to the Psalms or not before they dropped it, but even if they did I find no indication that any of it was ever released to the public.

There was indication elsewhere in this thread that “A Short Breviary for Religious and the Laity” (1941) or “A Short Breviary” (1941) or “Monastic Diurnal or The Day Hours of the Monastic Breviary” (possibly 1948-1963) might contain a 1941 CCD translation of the Psalms. I believe that that information was pulled from the same website (www.kellerbook.com/OVERVIEW.HTM) which has already been found to contain faulty information. I was able to look at an edition of “A Short Breviary for Religious and the Laity” (1944 is the date of the Imprimatur and the latest date shown in the front matter), and it indeed does have a different version of the Psalms in it from any listed above (see below) which also does seem to be a translation of the Latin Vulgate and not the New Psalter. I would think that this is the same version of the Psalms that is in the 1941 edition of the same book. There is no indication in the front matter of the breviary what translation is used. According to the kellerbook.com website and another thread in this forum (forum.catholic.org/viewtopic.php?f=144&p=756295&sid=bace0c31bf5a58faf1fa4f8b4e82128f), it was a special translation just for the “Monastic Diurnal” by Paschal Botz, OSB and Basil Stegmann, OSB. If that’s accurate, I can find no indication that either of these monks from St. John’s Abbey in Collegville, MN had any link with the CCD, nor are either of them listed on the CCD New Testament Revision Committee. Perhaps this is a fine translation of the Psalms, but it does not seem to be a CCD translation.

The only conclusion I can come to (please prove me wrong!) is that a pre-1945 CDD translation of the Psalms was never made, or, if it was, was never released to the public.

Psalm 129 found in 1944 edition of “A Short Breviary for Religious and the Laity” (edited by the monks of St. John’s Abbey, Minnesota):
Out of the depths I cry to Thee, O Lord,Lord hear my prayer, Let Thine ears give heedto the voice of my supplication. If Thou, O Lord, rememberest sins,*O Lord, who shall endure? But with Thee is merciful forgiveness,*and for Thy law I trust in Thee, O Lord, My soul trusteth in His word,my soul hopeth in the Lord, From the morning watch even to the nightlet Israel hope in the Lord; For with the Lord is mercy,and with Him plentiful redemption; And He shall redeem Israelfrom all his iniquities.