RSV-CE Needs Corrections

[jpy15026]

The New Strongs Dictionary of Greek and Hebrew Words

5 For thou hast made him a little 4592 lower 2637 than the angels, 430

430 . אֱֱלֹהִים˒ĕlôhı̂ym , el-o-heem’; plural of 433;gods in the ordinary sense; but specifically used in the plural,thus especially with the article of the supreme God; occasionally applied by way of deference to magistrates; and sometimes as a superlative: angels, exceeding, God (gods) (goddess, godly), (very) great, judges, mighty.

 

[mmortal03]

Ok, so this Psalm 8:5 situation is very similar to the Isaiah 7:14 one. In both cases, the Septuagint translators placed their understanding onto how a Hebrew word was used, and then the writers of the NT quoted their translation. I’d actually rather it say “God”, and then they mention in the footnotes that the word was used as a superlative and could implicitly refer to “the angels” (as in the Septuagint).

jpy15026, I’m assuming it doesn’t have a footnote or anything refering it to Hebrews 2:6-9?

Here is the info updated:

Original 1965 RSVCE and Ignatius Bible First Edition:
Isaiah 7:14: uses Masoretic Text “young woman”
Psalm 8:5: uses Masoretic Text “Yet thou hast made him little less than God”
Matthew 16:18: “powers of death”, footnote “gates of Hades”
Luke 1:34: “How can this be”
John 19:5: “Here is the man”
Matthew 19:5, 19:6, 1 Corinthians 6:16 “one”, footnote “one flesh”
Throughout OT: “steadfast love”, “***”
Archaic language spoken to God.

Ignatius Bible RSV Second Catholic Edition:
Isaiah 7:14: uses Septuagint “virgin”
Psalm 8:5: uses Septuagint “Yet you have made him little less than the angels”
Matthew 16:18: “gates of Hades”, footnote “powers of death”
Luke 1:34: “How can this be”
John 19:5: “Here is the man”
Matthew 19:5, 19:6, 1 Corinthians 6:16 “one”, footnote “one flesh”
Throughout OT: “mercy”, “donkey”
Only Archaic language in a few specific cases.

Oxford Press RSVCE Compact Edition (and possibly the new Reader’s Edition, we will have to see once it is released):
Isaiah 7:14: uses Masoretic Text “young woman”
Psalm 8:5: uses Masoretic Text “Yet thou hast made him little less than God”
Matthew 16:18: “powers of death”, footnote “gates of Hades”
Luke 1:34: “How shall this be”
John 19:5: “Behold, the man”
Matthew 19:5, 19:6, 1 Corinthians 6:16 “one flesh”, no footnote
Throughout OT: “steadfast love”, “***”
Archaic language spoken to God.

On all three of these editions, Luke 1:28 is rendered “Hail, full of grace”, and throughout the Holy Spirit is refered to with “whom” or “who” instead of “which”.

 

[jpy15026]

mmortal03:

jpy15026, I’m assuming it doesn’t have a footnote or anything refering it to Hebrews 2:6-9?

Correct, No footnotes,no reference.

I received info from Oxford University Press today:

Dear John.

This Bible will be available August 2006.

The Revised Standard Version Catholic Bible
Reader’s Version
ISBN13: 9780195288650ISBN10: 0195288653 genuine leather black 884, 1280 pages
Feb 2006, Not Yet Published

 

[mmortal03]

DaveBj:

I came, I saw, I was not impressed. Wiki is not an authoritative source unless it is backed up by some other authoritative source.

The “clear difference” mentioned in the “Possessive” article was in “some languages;” the article is not specific to English.

If you want to claim that the usage of “thy” and “thine” is driven by some difference in OE or ME case usage, rather than by the initial sound of the following word, you’ll have to find something in a historical linguistics textbook, or, even better, a textbook of the history of the English language itself.

DaveBj

I haven’t looked for a hard copy source yet, but here is another site stating the difference between the genitive and the possessive, and refering specifically to English: alt-usage-english.org/genitive_and_possessive.html

As far as the possibility of using “thy” and “thine” in a different manner than starting words with a consonant or vowel (respectively), I haven’t really looked into that further.

As far as the “thine altar” situation, I did notice that in the Apocrypha of the KJV, Judith 9:8 uses “thy altar”. Could be a misprint, as the KJV uses “thine altar(s)” in the problematic cases where the RSV uses “thy altar(s)”, but then I looked further into this.

I did a search in the KJV for all “thy (vowel sound)” and thine (vowel sound)" cases and this is what I found. It looks pretty irregular to me, at least if we are only applying the strict vowel sound rules.

thy
13 a: hti.umich.edu/cgi/k/kjv/kjv-idx?type=simple&format=Long&q1=thy+a&restrict=All&size=First+100
31 e: hti.umich.edu/cgi/k/kjv/kjv-idx?type=simple&format=Long&q1=thy+e&restrict=All&size=First+100
1 i: hti.umich.edu/cgi/k/kjv/kjv-idx?type=simple&format=Long&q1=thy+i&restrict=All&size=First+100
15 o: hti.umich.edu/cgi/k/kjv/kjv-idx?type=simple&format=Long&q1=thy+o&restrict=All&size=First+100
4 u: hti.umich.edu/cgi/k/kjv/kjv-idx?type=simple&format=Long&q1=thy+u&restrict=All&size=First+100
38 y: hti.umich.edu/cgi/k/kjv/kjv-idx?type=simple&format=Long&q1=thy+y&restrict=All&size=First+100

thine
125 a: hti.umich.edu/cgi/k/kjv/kjv-idx?type=simple&format=Long&q1=thine+a&restrict=All&size=First+100
268 e: hti.umich.edu/cgi/k/kjv/kjv-idx?type=simple&format=Long&q1=thine+e&restrict=All&size=First+100
63 i: hti.umich.edu/cgi/k/kjv/kjv-idx?type=simple&format=Long&q1=thine+i&restrict=All&size=First+100
137 o: hti.umich.edu/cgi/k/kjv/kjv-idx?type=simple&format=Long&q1=thine+o&restrict=All&size=First+100
6 u: hti.umich.edu/cgi/k/kjv/kjv-idx?type=simple&format=Long&q1=thine+u&restrict=All&size=First+100
0 y: hti.umich.edu/cgi/k/kjv/kjv-idx?type=simple&format=Long&q1=thine+y&restrict=All&size=First+100

 

[DaveBj]

mmortal03:

I haven’t looked for a hard copy source yet…

snip

I :bowdown: to your much superior research, and I remove myself from this aspect of the discussion.

DaveBj

 

[jpy15026]

For anyone who doesn’t want to wait for the “Full Size” one due in August, the “Compact” RSVCE is available now. I love mine, the size and quality is outstanding. I’m still looking forward to getting the “larger” full size one with larger print in August, and use this one when “out and about”, the size is perfect to take along anywhere.

Scepter Publishers…. Price: $29.99

scepterpublishers.org/product/index.php?FULL=287

All Catholic books…… Price: $22.50

allcatholicbooks.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc

Code: P25x01a

 

[mmortal03]

jpy15026:

For anyone who doesn’t want to wait for the “Full Size” one due in August, the “Compact” RSVCE is available now. I love mine, the size and quality is outstanding. I’m still looking forward to getting the “larger” full size one with larger print in August, and use this one when “out and about”, the size is perfect to take along anywhere.

Scepter Publishers…. Price: $29.99

scepterpublishers.org/product/index.php?FULL=287

All Catholic books…… Price: $22.50

allcatholicbooks.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc

Code: P25x01a

Wait, the Scepter Compact and the Oxford Press Compact are one and the same with just a difference in covers? So you have the Scepter compact, and it has these differences that we have been finding above?

Also, then what about these, the Scepter RSVCE Full Size editons? The indexed versions look to have been published in January 2005, and the non indexed versions in June 1998. They are selling for the same price as the new Oxford Press Reader’s editions will. Do they have the same hybridness of the Compacts, or do they match the Ignatius Bible 1st Editions?:
scepterpublishers.org/product/index.php?keywords=RSVCE&x=0&y=0&offset=0
and here for cheaper: allcatholicbooks.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=ACB&Product_Code=P25x09&Category_Code=

 

[jpy15026]

mmortal03:

Wait, the Scepter Compact and the

Oxford Press Compact are one and the same with just a difference in covers? So you have the Scepter compact, and it has these differences that we have been finding above?*

Yes, The Scepter compact RSVCE that we named a “Hybrid” is what I have been quoting from. It differs not only from my Ignatius but also from my Logos software RSV which reads “The Second Edition of the translation of the New Testament (1971)”
What makes things even more confusing is when you look at the opening page my compact Scepter, that I purchased from Scepter Publishing, it reads “Oxford University Press”, published by Oxford University Press Inc.

*Also, then what about these, the Scepter RSVCE Full Size editons? The indexed versions look to have been published in January 2005, and the non indexed versions in June 1998. They are selling for the same price as the new Oxford Press Reader’s editions will. Do they have the same hybridness of the Compacts, or do they match the Ignatius Bible 1st Editions? *

Good Question,I’ve been trying to find that out myself!

I do know that when I tried to buy one last Fall they were “out of print” .I assumed that is why they were coming out with the ‘Reader’s Edition” ,but now they have 500 copies available to buy.When I checked into them last Fall they had no reference to “Catholic” except for "RSV including the “Apocrypha” ,the discription was very different from this new “Readers Edition” coming out:

*The Revised Standard Version Catholic Bible’s New Testament appeared in 1965, and the whole Bible was published the following year. The RSV remains the translation used in official Church documents, and served as the basis for the scriptural text used in *the Catechism of the Catholic Church .
The Reader’s Edition is perfect for anyone needing a straightforward text Bible, whether for reading or personal devotions. It includes a presentation section, prayers and devotions of the Church, and the Dogmatic Constitution on Divine Revelation (Dei Verbum ). Gilded page edges and a ribbon marker make for a thoughtful gift.

That’s why I’m waiting, it’s the same exact description as my “compact Scepter” I’m again hoping it’s the same ,only “Full Size” I have my doubts about the one that has been out for a while, out of print ,and now available.

scepterpublishers.org/product/index.php?keywords=RSVCE&x=0&y=0&offset=0

and here for cheaper: allcatholicbooks.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=ACB&Product_Code=P25x09&Category_Code=

 

[mmortal03]

Ok, this may be our answer:

amazon.com/gp/cdp/member-reviews/AI2YC8C1N5RUB/ref=cm_cr_auth/103-8834480-3852604?%5Fencoding=UTF8

This guy reviews the full size Scepter version (albiet the non-indexed version that is dated everywhere as 1998, instead of the indexed version dated as 2005, although they are probably one and the same):

Edit: He looks like he is a member of this forum as well! I willl PM him. His last activity here was August 16, 2004, so hopefully he gets it.

This edition also gives some brief endnotes at the end of the Old and New Testament for each book of the Bible and important passages. The notes are helpful and traditional, but not very extensive.** This Bible also includes a appendix section listing the differences between the RSV-CE of 1966 and the original RSV of 1952. Interestingly, the 1971 revision of the RSV New Testament made many of the same changes as the RSV-CE of 1966.**
…]
The burgundy leather covering is beautiful. However the printing in this bible is its only weakness. It appears that Thomas Nelson Publishing publishes this version of the Bible for both Scepter Publishing and Ignatius Publishing. So they are both practically identical in their weaknesses. The margins are a bit to narrow especially where the page meets the binding. I have also noticed that the darkness of the print varies slightly throughout the Bible and the print is not quite as sharp as would like it. And I wish that the font was slightly larger.

Does the Ignatius Bible First Editon have this index at the end that he speaks of? Based on what he says, they look to be the same text as the Ignatius Bibles, but there is no way to tell whether or not he compared them directly or whether he is just making that assumption.

 

[mmortal03]

jpy15026, just curious, how does your Oxford Press/Scepter render Exodus 15:13, “steadfast love” or “merciful love”?

 

[mmortal03]

Also, I just noticed something about the changes we have found so far in the Ignatius Second Edition. Besides them not changing John 19:5 to say “Behold, the man” or them not changing “one”, to “one flesh”, all they really did was follow the NAB.

And, we have yet to find any changes correlating to Liturgiam Authenticam. Has anyone else?

Frankly, on the title page, they could have instead stated, “Revised according to the New American Bible, 1991” and it would have been more accurate.

The new Oxford Press RSVCE’s are looking more and more appealing.

 

[jpy15026]

Does the Ignatius Bible First Edition have this index at the end that he speaks of?

Yes, my Ignatius First Edition has an “appendix two” It’s a Chart that lists the changes in the RSV CE It lists the changes in both the Text and the footnotes that were made in the Catholic Edition New Testament only! No references to the Old Testament in the list!

*My Compact Scepter also has this exact same “appendix two” List.

**Compact Scepter ….Exodus 15:13, “steadfast love”

 

[mmortal03]

New Testament only! No references to the Old Testament in the list!

*My Compact Scepter also has this exact same “appendix two” List.

Yeah, in the original RSV:CE, only the New Testament was changed, so that would make sense.

As far as your Scepter also having this “appendix two”, what does it say for Luke 1:34, John 19:5, and
Matthew 19:5, 19:6, and 1 Corinthians 6:16? These are all different from the Ignatius Bible First Edition, so hopefully they corrected the Appendix, right?

Speaking of which, if they DID correct it, we can compare the Appendix from the Ignatius Bible First Edition to yours and figure out a lot more about the “hybridization”.

 

[jpy15026]

As far as your Scepter also having this “appendix two”, what does it say for Luke 1:34, John 19:5, and Matthew 19:5, 19:6, and 1 Corinthians 6:16?

*These are all different from the Ignatius Bible First Edition, so hopefully they corrected the Appendix, right?

***Although the texts are different between my Ignatius first edition and my compact Scepter , *No *corrections or additions were added to “appendix two” in my compact Scepter, it’s exactly the same as the “appendix two” in the Ignatius….Arruugghhh!

Speaking of which, if they DID correct it, we can compare the Appendix from the Ignatius Bible First Edition to yours and figure out a lot more about the “hybridization”.

Nice try mmortal03 ,but I guess we have to do it the hard way!

 

[mmortal03]

As far as your Scepter also having this “appendix two”, what does it say for Luke 1:34, John 19:5, and Matthew 19:5, 19:6, and 1 Corinthians 6:16?

*These are all different from the Ignatius Bible First Edition, so hopefully they corrected the Appendix, right? *

**Although the texts are different between my Ignatius first edition and my compact Scepter , *No *corrections or additions were added to “appendix two” in my compact Scepter, it’s exactly the same as the “appendix two” in the Ignatius….Arruugghhh!

Speaking of which, if they DID correct it, we can compare the Appendix from the Ignatius Bible First Edition to yours and figure out a lot more about the “hybridization”.

Nice try mmortal03 ,but I guess we have to do it the hard way!

But wait, you have both! I didn’t know you had both. So, even “the hard way” for you is easier than what is possible for me, because I don’t have either, I only have the Ignatius Bible Second Edition.

If you do have some extra time, it would be great if you could do some comparisons, but no rush…I know for a fact that I don’t have the time right now to just sit around and scan two Bibles line by line!

On that note, though, wouldn’t it be great if all bibles came with a digital copy?

 

[mmortal03]

I used Amazon.com’s “Search inside this book” feature to take a look at the “Appendix 2” that you mentioned. It is only 4 pages long! That isn’t an exhaustive list, is it? If it is, then there really weren’t that many changes made between the 1952 edition and the 1966 CE. Most of it is just changing “brothers” to “brethren” and adding in the removed verses like the 1977 edition did.

Speaking of which, does anyone know if the 1952 text is online? I can (obviously) only find the 1977 version.

 

[jpy15026]

On that note, though, wouldn’t it be great if all bibles came with a digital copy?

That’s what I love about my Logos Libronix software, I can scroll *nine versions of the Bible simultaneously, too bad the RSVCE (Ignatius and Scepter) aren’t available!

The nine versions are the NAB,RSV,NRSV,NJB,KJV,NKJV, ASV,GNB,and the Latin Vulgate.

I also have a separate (outside of my Libronix Program) Douay Rheims and The Haydock Douay Rheims on my PC.

This is why we need the Magisterium of the Catholic Church to guide us; it’s very interesting that when I compare the subtle differences in the various versions I can understand why there are 30,000 different denominations all claiming that they have the true interpretation of the Inspired Word of God!

**

 

[jpy15026]

My Scepter numbers the Psalms “straight” from 1 to 150.

No “double numbering” from 11 to 148 as in my Ignatius (First Edition.)

 

[mmortal03]

The Ignatius Bible 2nd Edition doesn’t have the pronunciation marks on names, the 1st Edition does. What does the Scepter/Oxford have?

 

[SFH]

mike0219116:

I already stated in another thread that the compact edition of the RSV-CE published by Oxford renders John 19:5, “Behold the man,” and Luke 1:34, “And Mary said to the angel, ‘How shall this be…’”

Perhaps I can shed a little light on this. The RSV-CE (first edition) that is published by Ignatius Press received an imprimatur from the British (it contains the phrase “full of grace” and is based on the 1946 translation of the New Testament). The RSV-CE published by Oxford press received an imprimatur from Cardinal Cushing of Boston (it does not contain the phrase “full of grace” and is based on the 1971 revision to the New Testament).

The RSV New Testament went through two revisions: one in 1946 and one in 1971. Recently, a New Revised Standard Version was published, but the imprimatur was withdrawn on that version.