RSV-CE Needs Corrections

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At the beginning of the OT in the NAB, there is a preface that briefly explains the changes talked about throughout this thread. Hopefully, this preface will answer some of the questions raised here.
I think what some of us here, as well as many who critique translations, are saying is that the translators of the NAB went a bit overboard in re-arranging verses, more than any other version. The New Jerusalem Bible, however, comes in a close second in innovative re-arrangements.

You have to ask yourself, “Why didn’t the translators of the RSV, ESV, NASB feel compelled to go to these lengths?” (I purposely exluded the D-R since it’s a translation from the Vg, not the original languages, and even the highly-vaunted Non-Inspired Version, because I regard it as too “chatty” - compared to the quite literal NASB - for serious study.)
 
dalcent posted in another thread the following:
Romans 11:20 in the RSV:CE has ‘…only through faith’ whereas the NASB following the Greek does not have ‘only’ smuggled in by the Protestant translation team.
That seems to be something that needs to be corrected!

On a separate topic, I received my Oxford Press RSV:CE compact the other day, and I found some things that were interesting in its contents:

1.) The Old Testament Explanatory Notes states: “In these notes Vulgate additions are quoted in the Douay Version”
2.) The New Testament Appendix includes the list of changes from the RSV to the RSV:CE (Great for the occasion where someone of another Christian denomination questions the contents of your Bible, though they might still not like Isaiah 7:14 😉 )
 
What will come first–a 3d edition of the RSV-CE by Ignatius or ANOTHER UPDATED edition of the RSV-CE Reader’s edition by Oxford University Press?

Have we seen the RSV get polished as much as it ever will be polished? I hope not.
 
What will come first–a 3d edition of the RSV-CE by Ignatius or ANOTHER UPDATED edition of the RSV-CE Reader’s edition by Oxford University Press?

Have we seen the RSV get polished as much as it ever will be polished? I hope not.
Don’t forget about the NRSV revision that is going to occur in the UK that will have inclusive language removed and revised according to Liturgiam Authenticam. That will be a third different RSV-based volume with the same readership in mind.
 
mmortal03: If they take out all the inclusive language of the NRSV–which translation–NRSV versus RSV-CE do you think is better?
 
mmortal03: If they take out all the inclusive language of the NRSV–which translation–NRSV versus RSV-CE do you think is better?
That is the very question that I have been wanting to have answered for myself. If we had an exhaustive source that displayed the non-gender related revisions in the the NRSV, it would be much easier to answer, but we don’t have that.

What could be helpful for biblical scholarship would be if translating bodies would piece together a hybrid compilation of the original language source documents that they chose to translate from and/or that their translation most closely matches. Then we could compare the source material used for the RSV to the source material used for the NRSV without the bias of the differing translation goals getting in the way, so that we could really get down to determining the underlying differences. This would help us analytically determine what the following is referring to:
“The original Old Testament translation of the RSV was completed before the Dead Sea Scrolls were generally available to scholars. The NRSV was intended to take advantage of these and other manuscript discoveries, and to reflect advances in scholarship since the RSV had been released.”
To continue on my last point, while i am sure that in some unique cases they might have chosen to paraphrase multiple differing sources, these could easily be footnoted in what I am proposing.

I am at home right now in TN, but back at school in FL I have a photocopy of a set of pages from an NRSV concordance that listed the differences between the NRSV NT and a particular edition of the UBS Greek New Testament. Something along those lines might be helpful if we had the same thing for the RSV and we could compare the two.

I have read that the Hebrew and Greek sources used to revise the NRSV are very trustworthy, but I am not familiar enough with them to know this myself.

I think our best shot is to get someone from this board, who is knowledgeable of the RSV, to read the NRSV all the way through without gagging on the inclusive language. I don’t think we are going to find anybody who wants to volunteer to do this though!
 
dalcent posted in another thread the following:

That seems to be something that needs to be corrected!

On a separate topic, I received my Oxford Press RSV:CE compact the other day, and I found some things that were interesting in its contents:

1.) The Old Testament Explanatory Notes states: “In these notes Vulgate additions are quoted in the Douay Version”
2.) The New Testament Appendix includes the list of changes from the RSV to the RSV:CE (Great for the occasion where someone of another Christian denomination questions the contents of your Bible, though they might still not like Isaiah 7:14 😉 )
The inclusion of the word “only” in Romans 11:20 also occurs in the 1966 Jerusalem Bible and the RSV 1971 NT. One PROTESTANT reviewer (Jack Lewis) called it “unbiblical”, since the word is not in the original Greek.

Re the OT explanatory note: the quotes from the Douay OT are in the notes ONLY, not in the RSV OT text, in case you were wondering.
 
Re the OT explanatory note: the quotes from the Douay OT are in the notes ONLY, not in the RSV OT text, in case you were wondering.
I knew that was the case, I just thought it to be quite interesting that they needed to quote the Vulgate at any point within the confines of their own translation! 🙂 I assume the context for this type of thing was that they were just trying to inform the reader that a particular traditional rendering from the Latin had been determined to not be as accurate, but was still relevant to mention.
 
mmortal, Jerry-Jet,

I’m sure you both realize that the more revisions the RSV goes through, many improvements over the earlier text are made, but new annoyances are introduced to take the place of what the current revision fixed. Thus the original RSV has evolved into the NRSV, based, allegedly, on better critical source texts, but gender-inclusive to a fault. And, in some cases, the revision doesn’t go far enough, as in the case of the changes made to the 1959 NT which are the core of the RSV-CE.

The NASB translators - dyed-in-the-wool evangelical Protestants - are not likely to produce a translation of the Deutero-canonicals. Maybe the ESV team might consider it, but I doubt it. And I still think trying to undo the neutering of the NRSV will be as successfulas that of the NAB NT we got in our Lectionary. 😦
 
Bless ye all Scripture Scholars suggesting changes to the English Translations to suit your tastes.

I am wondering how ignorant I am, still trying to “Master” the English Language.

I just like to poll how many of you who offered “subjective” critique to the English Translations have mastered in one or more of the following Languages
  • English
  • Hebrew
  • Koaine Greek
    -Latin
  • French
  • Italian
  • German.
I understand that Scripture Scholars with Licentiate to teach Sacred Scriptures from the Pontifical Biblical Institute (S.S.L.) are expected to be knowledgeable in at least 6 languageds which must include
-Hebrew
-Greek
-Latin-
-English and 2 others.
Read this from the “New Covenant” Charismatic Renewal magazine several years ago.
(P.S. Does anyone know if this is s5ill the case today?)

God Bless and have a Blessed Christmas.
 
Richardeekw,

Thanks for the gentle and timely reminder. I guess during this Advent season, one thing we should be pondering is our spirit of humility.
 
As I have mentioned in another thread, Even English is a problem - The American English and the British English

10.12.2006

The Americans say October 12th 2006
The British say 10th December 2006

I experienced this problem as an auditor in an American Bank in Singapore employing both Americans, Englishmen and Singaporeans (Singapore adopts the British system)

Cheers
 
You know, I noticed that Oxford lists its new Reader’s Bible as “Revised Standard Version Catholic Bible”, and not “Holy Bible: Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition”.

It looks like a small difference but I wonder if Oxford really meant this to be a new Catholic version of the RSV distinct from the RSV-CE. Ignatius also markets its compact as the Ignatius Catholic Bible.
 
You know, I noticed that Oxford lists its new Reader’s Bible as “Revised Standard Version Catholic Bible”, and not “Holy Bible: Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition”.

It looks like a small difference but I wonder if Oxford really meant this to be a new Catholic version of the RSV distinct from the RSV-CE. Ignatius also markets its compact as the Ignatius Catholic Bible.
porthos,

You’ve come through again!

I. too, noticed the subtlety in the respective titles, which may explain how they get around copyright issues wrt the RSV-CE of 1966. If this is so, it’s a deliberate attempt to mislead buyers.
 
Bless ye all Scripture Scholars suggesting changes to the English Translations to suit your tastes.

I am wondering how ignorant I am, still trying to “Master” the English Language.

I just like to poll how many of you who offered “subjective” critique to the English Translations have mastered in one or more of the following Languages
  • English
  • Hebrew
  • Koaine Greek
    -Latin
  • French
  • Italian
  • German.
I understand that Scripture Scholars with Licentiate to teach Sacred Scriptures from the Pontifical Biblical Institute (S.S.L.) are expected to be knowledgeable in at least 6 languageds which must include
-Hebrew
-Greek
-Latin-
-English and 2 others.
Read this from the “New Covenant” Charismatic Renewal magazine several years ago.
(P.S. Does anyone know if this is s5ill the case today?)

God Bless and have a Blessed Christmas.
With all due respect to one having knowledge of these biblical languages: it’s the ENGLISH of many translations that’s abyssmal!
 
Go for it, mmortal!! 👍

But, remember, a lot of us are going to be expecting a full-scale, in-depth analysis of this long-awaited edition. 😃
I already had it pre-ordered, however the problem now is that overstock.com is telling me that it is “Accepted” on the Order Status page, and I don’t have any idea what that could mean. They charge you for all pre-orders before they ship, so I don’t know how that terminology could apply in this case. However it turns out, I won’t be able to review it until around the middle of January, because it is to be shipped to my school address, and I won’t be back there until then.
 
Hello,
This is my first post to these forums, so let me introduce myself by saying that I am a convert to the Catholic faith as of eight years ago. I struggled for several years to find a Catholic bible that I was happy with, both in terms of content as well as physical quality. A few years ago, my parish priest suggested the Revised Standard Version from either Oxford University Press or Ignatius Press. I’m not sure he knew there was a difference. So, I purchased the compact edition from Oxford University Press and have been quite happy with it.

However, last year I began some regular Catholic bible study through the Jeff Cavins Bible Timeline program. I soon realized that the Ignatius Press version had chain references for scripture passages and page headers that I found useful for study purposes. So, I bought the inexpensive paperback version of what is now known as the first edition of the Ignatius bible.

Less than a year later, the 2nd edition of the Ignatius bible came out in a nice leather version. It had the scripture chain references, more detailed section headers, the endnotes of the 1st edition had become convenient page footnotes, and maps were included. Finally, I thought I had the nice Catholic study bible that I’d been wanting for seven years!

Having reviewed the posts on this site, I now realize that I have three different versions of RSV translations. Many posters here recommend the Oxford University Press version. However, Catholic Answers still recommends the 1st Ingatius edition, although they do sell the 2nd edition.

And so, I’m a little disappointed and frustrated, and I have the following questions:

1.) Has anybody seen the new Oxford Reader’s Edition yet? Is it just a larger print version of the compact edition, or might it have some chain references, section headers, etc?

2.) Does the Catholic church have an official position with respect to these three RSV editions? It seems to me that the only truly authentic set of imprimaturs were granted to what is now the 1st edition of the Ignatius bible. (Perhaps this is why its the recommended version by Catholic Answers.) The Oxford and 2nd Ignatius editions seem to have taken some creative license with their respective approval citations.

3.) Does the debate really matter in the end? Are the differences in these various versions really significant in the scheme of God’s grand plan?

Sincerely,
rock8rob
 
And so, I’m a little disappointed and frustrated, and I have the following questions:

1.) Has anybody seen the new Oxford Reader’s Edition yet? Is it just a larger print version of the compact edition, or might it have some chain references, section headers, etc?

2.) Does the Catholic church have an official position with respect to these three RSV editions? It seems to me that the only truly authentic set of imprimaturs were granted to what is now the 1st edition of the Ignatius bible. (Perhaps this is why its the recommended version by Catholic Answers.) The Oxford and 2nd Ignatius editions seem to have taken some creative license with their respective approval citations.

3.) Does the debate really matter in the end? Are the differences in these various versions really significant in the scheme of God’s grand plan?
1.) No one on this board has seen it yet. I will probably be the first one to see it, as I have had it pre-ordered for months. I have checked my order status almost every day within the last two weeks, and Overstock.com has continued to either tell me that it is “Accepted” or has given me a specific shipping date that has since been incremented every other day since the 16th. Today it says that it will be shipping on December 24th, though I really doubt that will happen (Christmas Eve and a Sunday? You have got to be kidding me!).

However, Oxford Press has had them in stock themselves now since about a week ago, but they are at retail price there, so I will wait.

2.) There is no official position on the issue, as no one knows about it outside of this board. As for the Ignatius 2nd Edition, they obtained proper permission from the holders of the copyright, which isn’t the Catholic Church. This is what Ignatius Press had to say about the Imprimatur and Nihil Obstat:

“Proposed changes were sent to the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops (which was then the National Conference of Catholic Bishops) and we were told that changes were of a sufficiently editorial nature to support retention of the previously granted Imprimatur. Later changes, made in conformity with translation guidelines of the Vatican document, Liturgiam Authenticam, were approved directly by the Congregation for Divine Worship, which also reviewed all of the text.”

For all we know, this is what happened with the Oxford Press edition as well, except for the Liturgiam Authenticam part.

3.) In absolute terms, the changes mean little, as the responsibility to properly teach the beliefs of the Church falls upon the Magisterium, and not directly on vernacular translations of the Bible. However, we could surely infer that these vernacular translations of the Bible are extensions of that teaching responsibility, when they hold an Imprimatur and Nihil Obstat.

My interpretation of these two approvals is that they don’t set out to mean that the contents are perfect, but that they are there to make the faithful aware that the contents have no obvious errors involving faith and morals. There can always be corrections made if something is later seen unfit.
 
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