Rubbing and kissing to images of Jesus

[souldiver]

In my country, for Catholics, there is such thing is rubbing the statue of Jesus then you make the sign of the cross. Also at Christmas eve, at the church, you are supposed to kiss the statue of baby Jesus.

How to prove that these are not idolatry?

 

[liturgy96]

Hi! I hope this helps: catholic.com/blog/tim-staples/so-catholics-worship-statues

 

[JurisPrudens]

Personally I do never do that to public images. Don’t want to harm them. That is also not hygienic.

 

[z_0101]

Liturgy96 - you beat me to the punch with that link!

Personally I do never do that to public images. Don’t want to harm them. That is also not hygienic.

I agree about not touching the image/item so as not to damage it; thus, for me, the hygienic part doesn’t come to play

 

[Todd977]

Since the actions you describe (rubbing and kissing) are not exclusively acts of divine worship, you must know the person’s intention before you can rightly judge whether or not he is committing idolatry and really the only way to know his intention is for him to tell you. Jesus warned against making rash judgments and so, until you know for sure, it is best to give Catholics the benefit of the doubt in such matters.

Unlike the two Marys who were able to rub or embrace the feet of the risen Lord on Easter morning (Matt 28:9), because Jesus is now in heaven and they are on the earth, Catholics cannot physically show such signs of their affection for Jesus directly to him and so sometimes they show their affection for Jesus indirectly to him through the statues depicting him. The statues themselves are not the ultimate objects of Catholics’ affection (that would indeed be idolatry) but the statues serve merely as symbolic, physical focal points for the affection Catholics wish to show for Jesus Christ himself.

It is not a particularly easy read and the language it uses is a little antiquated, especially its broad, archaic understanding of the word “worship,” but the old Catholic Encyclopedia has an article on “Veneration of Images” that might help, especially the last section with the now somewhat misleading title “The principles of image-worship.”

 

[Jeannie52]

Hi! I hope this helps: catholic.com/blog/tim-staples/so-catholics-worship-statues

Thank you for sharing this great link.

 

[TK421]

The object is a visible medium through which you are expressing affection towards a heavenly person. Similarly, when you say “I love you” over the phone, it is not the phone who you are saying “I love you” to, but rather, the person, who is in that moment invisible to you.

I’m the sacristan at my parish. When I walk into the Church and it is completely empty, I will hug / kiss the cheeks, hands, and feet of the St Therese statue. I will also kiss the Immaculate Heart & Sacred Heart. I frequently kiss the holy images that I keep in my apartment, especially the face, hands, and Immaculate Heart of my mother, and even her lips (not an odd thing in traditional cultures) but also the wounds of Jesus, the image of St Catherine, St Therese, and St Joseph. Many saints were likewise highly expressive in their adoration, and I have found this to be enormously beneficial to me. The 1st century Christians greeted one another with a kiss, and this continues in many modern cultures, although regrettably American culture has a rather confused understanding of this.

Unless you have a threatened immune system as a result of a condition, worrying about hygiene is ill-advised and even counterproductive. Many 21st century people suffer from weak immune systems precisely because they go to inordinate ends to avoid germs. Eat fruit & vegetables, and avoid stress in so far as it is possible, and you will optimize your chances to be healthy. If you catch a bug, your immune system will very quickly pummel it, and it will be even further protected from those strains in the future.

 

[TK421]

When people started washing hands, the primary legitimate concern was ecoli bacteria (i.e. after you go to the bathroom, scrub-a-dub those paws)

It’s evolved (or more accurately: devolved) since then into sanitizing yourself at any given opportunity. This means when you get sick, you really get sick bad and it lasts a long time, which causes the person to use even more sanitation in the future. It’s an unprofitable cycle and it cultivates an attitude of squeamishness towards other human beings.

 

[zab]

In my country, for Catholics, there is such thing is rubbing the statue of Jesus then you make the sign of the cross. Also at Christmas eve, at the church, you are supposed to kiss the statue of baby Jesus.

How to prove that these are not idolatry?

It is not a practice of the Catholic Church to worship idols and there has been much written about that. The Catholic reverence of statues is not like another religion that does actually worship a Buddha and feeds it milk. I would equate kissing a statue of Jesus or Mary by Catholics the same as kissing a picture of your mother or child. You know that the picture is only an image of your loved one not their actual being. The Church has also the power to bless holy images making them instruments of God’s grace. The material itself does not have power but is something that God can work through because He mad us and He knows that visible things appeal to our senses. The Church calls these “sacramentals”. No matter what the church teaches there will always be some who do their own things and search in all the wrong places for images and signs of God. I do not know or understand the practice of rubbing statues as if by rubbing one would get any more grace. I believe it is possible that some Catholics do treat sacramentals as idols. These also should listen to what the Church teaches.

 

[z_0101]

It is not a practice of the Catholic Church to worship idols and there has been much written about that. The Catholic reverence of statues is not like another religion that does actually worship a Buddha and feeds it milk.

Let us be careful here, hopefully I’ve misread your post (it happens), (( Are Buddhists Idol Worshippers? )) just as with Catholics, the acts of other faiths are also quite often misinterpreted. Growing up in a military family, I had the privilege to learn about many other faiths and most of them do not practice idolatry any more than one can say that Catholics are idolaters.

Quite often, as with Catholics, the images/idols used in other faiths, are to them, the same as the sacramentals are to Catholics as you describe later in your post.

 

[Faithdancer]

When people started washing hands, the primary legitimate concern was ecoli bacteria (i.e. after you go to the bathroom, scrub-a-dub those paws)

It’s evolved (or more accurately: devolved) since then into sanitizing yourself at any given opportunity. This means when you get sick, you really get sick bad and it lasts a long time, which causes the person to use even more sanitation in the future. It’s an unprofitable cycle and it cultivates an attitude of squeamishness towards other human beings.

I’ve noticed less inclination toward rapid fire hand shaking during the “sign of peace” since I’ve started attending RC services again. I don’t know if it indicates heightened awareness of the contagion of disease via hands (which is true of a vast number diseases-- I teach a course in medical microbiology!) or it’s simply that I moved several hundred miles away from where I used to live, and I"m in a more conservative area. Anyway, most people in the RC churches around here seem content to fold their hands, make eye contact, smile and bow, rather than rush about the pews. Now if only the Anglican churches would follow suit!

And yes, kissing an object that someone else has just kissed, or more importantly touched, could spread infection. E. coli, haemophilus influenzae, viral flu, shigellosis, Corynebacterium sp., diphtheria, pertussis, rhinovirus, pneumonic plague, MERS, MRSA, and many more.

Sorry. That’s what happens when you teach medical microbiology to middle school kids! By the end of the course we have a long list of “don’ts:” don’t shake hands, don’t kiss, don’t swim, don’t play with squirrels, don’t pet armadillos at the petting zoo, don’t eat the food at picnics, don’t open letters from people you don’t know, etc. etc. And the list of “do’s” is empty.

 

[TK421]

But that has to do with insurance & liability as much as - or more than - it does human welfare. There is an extraordinary possibility that touching/kissing/hugging something will give you a serious disease, similar to how if I drive to the 7/11 down the road, there is an extraordinary possibility I’ll get my head smashed into a pulp by a drunk driver. So, if certain guidelines for avoiding germs weren’t taught, it would be perilous from a legal perspective for the educator. Besides, given how responsible 13-year-olds can be with hygiene, there’s probably greater cause for concern in a public school than other places.

I won’t pretend I’m advocating 100% medical fact, because this line of thought didn’t really get started until the late 1980s, but the concern is building that an excessively sanitized lifestyle is actually debilitating for human welfare. From my own anecdotal experience, I do feel like it’s curious that the people walking around with hand sanitizer strapped to their belt seem to be the ones with 3-week colds.

skeptics.stackexchange.com/questions/10664/does-living-clean-weaken-ones-immune-system “Pollution and the immune response: atopic diseases – are we too dirty or too clean?”

That’s all I’ll post about it. This is partially off-topic. I’ll let anybody feel free to have the final word if there is something they wish to say on this.

 

[otjm]

Let us be careful here, hopefully I’ve misread your post (it happens), (( Are Buddhists Idol Worshippers? )) just as with Catholics, the acts of other faiths are also quite often misinterpreted. Growing up in a military family, I had the privilege to learn about many other faiths and most of them do not practice idolatry any more than one can say that Catholics are idolaters.

Quite often, as with Catholics, the images/idols used in other faiths, are to them, the same as the sacramentals are to Catholics as you describe later in your post.

The difficulty is that understanding the finer points of the issue requires experience in critical thinking, something that was not widely taught decades ago, and is even more lacking today.

In the age of sound bites and snap judgements based of evocative and emotional language, we are taught to respond without thinking, and move on to the next titillating subject. You are not judged by how pithy a twitter you can broadcast, not the depth of your reasoning.

 

[z_0101]

It is not a practice of the Catholic Church to worship idols and there has been much written about that. The Catholic reverence of statues is not like another religion that does actually worship a Buddha and feeds it milk…
z_0101;13185280:

Let us be careful here, hopefully I’ve misread your post (it happens), (( Are Buddhists Idol Worshippers?

)) just as with Catholics, the acts of other faiths are also quite often misinterpreted. Growing up in a military family, I had the privilege to learn about many other faiths and most of them do not practice idolatry any more than one can say that Catholics are idolaters.

Quite often, as with Catholics, the images/idols used in other faiths, are to them, the same as the sacramentals are to Catholics as you describe later in your post.

The difficulty is that understanding the finer points of the issue requires experience in critical thinking, something that was not widely taught decades ago, and is even more lacking today.

In the age of sound bites and snap judgements based of evocative and emotional language, we are taught to respond without thinking, and move on to the next titillating subject. You are not judged by how pithy a twitter you can broadcast, not the depth of your reasoning.

OTJM
What?
Your reply doesn’t seem to follow either Zab’s nor my post… care to elaborate?

 

[otjm]

OTJM
What?
Your reply doesn’t seem to follow either Zab’s nor my post… care to elaborate?

It follows yours and is complimentary of it.

Kissing a statue requires critical thinking on the part of the observer

 

[thistle]

In my country, for Catholics, there is such thing is rubbing the statue of Jesus then you make the sign of the cross. Also at Christmas eve, at the church, you are supposed to kiss the statue of baby Jesus.

How to prove that these are not idolatry?

How is that different from someone touching a photo of a family member and kissing it. None of these things are idolatry.

 

[TBallcoach]

My wife touched and said hi to a Mother Mary statue, like it was Mother Mary and she was going to answer back. Is that idolatry?

 

[z_0101]

It follows yours and is complimentary of it.

Kissing a statue requires critical thinking on the part of the observer

I with you now… that’s what I get for being up so late instead of going to bed - or that’s my story and I’m sticking to it

 

[Jo1952]

Thank you for this reference, a couple of Jehovah’s Witnesses were quite rude to me because I have a crucifix on the wall and statues. They said that the Cross was a pagan symbol, of course it is the Romans were pagans, but the Lord hanging on it was God.

 

[chesterlab]

In my church, we have a magnificent full sized crucifix of our Lord up by the communion rail on the wall to the side. I kiss my fingers and touch his feet all the time when I pass by. Having come out of a protestant/evangelical background, I am acutely aware of the issue of idolatry. I only do it because I am giving my love and respect to Christ and the miseries he suffered. I do not worship the statue. There is another issue that troubles me, and that is the trend for catholics to take a statue of the Holy Virgin around to various homes and people get together to pray to her. That’s where I draw the line. I don’t mind the statues in church, and being an icon person myself because my dad was eastern rite greek catholic, I have icons of the holy family all over my home. I would be very uncomfortable with the traveling Virgin Mary scenario.

On the subject of kissing religious objects, in the eastern rite churches, the folks kiss the icons, they kiss the gospels when the priest brings the holy book down from behind the iconostasis, and they have a little cloth by the icons on the table before the altar where the icons lay, so that you can wipe your germs (or at least your lipstick) off after you kiss. Again, I kiss my fingers and then touch, because i am a germaphobe. I would never criticize anyone who engages in the act of kissing sacramentals, however. Everyone has their own way to express their faith. I can still hear my mother, whose family was right in the middle of the English Reformation, telling me how barbaric it is to venerate or kiss a religious object.

Finally, if you want to talk about germaphobia, when I used to attend the Episcopal church many moons ago, they partake of the wine and the bread through a common cup (the wine, that is). The priest one day announced that the women should remove their lipstick from their mouths prior to partaking of the blood of christ. I always did intincture anyway, because, as aforementioned, I am a germaphobe and I saw all the lipstick smudges on the cup. No way were my lips touching that chalice! Icky!