Rubrics or GIRM

[rrochon]

The Rubrics, or as it is termed now, GIRM, (General Instructions of the Roman Missal) lays down the rules that must be followed in celebrating the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.

Now it is obvious that it cannot possibly list everything that cannot be done during Mass, so it lists specifically how it must be done. If something is not listed, like holding hands during the “Our Father”, it cannot legitimately be done.

This is an unauthorised, addition to the Mass. Why don’t pastors explain this to the faithful? Why do bishops allow it? Why does the Church turn a blind eye to these abuses of the liturgy?

The fact that it looks like a loving gesture does not change the fact that it is an abuse until it has been approved. Of course, if the abuse continues long enough possibly Rome will approve it, like communion in hand or altar girls. That seems to be the way the Church operates lately.

 

[PaixGioiaAmor]

The Rubrics, or as it is termed now, GIRM, (General Instructions of the Roman Missal) lays down the rules that must be followed in celebrating the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.

Now it is obvious that it cannot possibly list everything that cannot be done during Mass, so it lists specifically how it must be done. If something is not listed, like holding hands during the “Our Father”, it cannot legitimately be done.

This is an unauthorised, addition to the Mass. Why don’t pastors explain this to the faithful? Why do bishops allow it? Why does the Church turn a blind eye to these abuses of the liturgy?

The fact that it looks like a loving gesture does not change the fact that it is an abuse until it has been approved. Of course, if the abuse continues long enough possibly Rome will approve it, like communion in hand or altar girls. That seems to be the way the Church operates lately.

Are you faithful to the Church? Are you willing to be OBEDIENT? I don’t mean obedient to the dated priests and notion of Church that dissallowed some things you hate. I mean are you willing to be OBEDIENT to the Church TODAY, period, agree or disagree?

When a practice continues for a time and the Church later affirms and allows the practice, it is not an abuse. It is allowable and sanctioned by the Church. If you still call it an abuse and find fault with the Church, that is a problem of obedience on your part.

 

[Joannm]

The Rubrics, or as it is termed now, GIRM, (General Instructions of the Roman Missal) lays down the rules that must be followed in celebrating the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.

Now it is obvious that it cannot possibly list everything that cannot be done during Mass, so it lists specifically how it must be done. If something is not listed, like holding hands during the “Our Father”, it cannot legitimately be done.

This is an unauthorised, addition to the Mass. Why don’t pastors explain this to the faithful? Why do bishops allow it? Why does the Church turn a blind eye to these abuses of the liturgy?

The fact that it looks like a loving gesture does not change the fact that it is an abuse until it has been approved. Of course, if the abuse continues long enough possibly Rome will approve it, like communion in hand or altar girls. That seems to be the way the Church operates lately.

OK, we have several people in our assembly who beat their breast several times during the Mass. The rubrics state that is is to by done during the confetior and does not state it anywhere else. So I guess that is an abuse and we should tell those people to stop.

The GIRM does not say how we are to fold our hands, so I guess doing anything is illegimate. The GIRM does not tell us to bury our face in our hands after communion, so I guess all those who do that are wrong and commiting abuse. The girm does not dictate each and every action of the assembly, While I do not like the idea of holding hands (I prefer the orans), if it makes some people feel closer to the Lord and to each other than that’s fine.

 

[Veritas41]

Are you faithful to the Church? Are you willing to be OBEDIENT? I don’t mean obedient to the dated priests and notion of Church that dissallowed some things you hate. I mean are you willing to be OBEDIENT to the Church TODAY, period, agree or disagree?

When a practice continues for a time and the Church later affirms and allows the practice, it is not an abuse. It is allowable and sanctioned by the Church. If you still call it an abuse and find fault with the Church, that is a problem of obedience on your part.

The Church does *not *affirm holding hands during the Our Father. Holding hands during the Our Father is an American phenomenon, and an article I read by Karl Keating suggests it may have been borrowed from 12-step programs like AA (not exactly an organic development of the liturgy)-- I’ve attended Mass in four other foreign countries, and in none of them did I see anyone holding hands during the Our Father. It is a liturgical *abuse *because it is not in the rubrics of the Mass.

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

The Rubrics, or as it is termed now, GIRM, (General Instructions of the Roman Missal) lays down the rules that must be followed in celebrating the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.

Now it is obvious that it cannot possibly list everything that cannot be done during Mass, so it lists specifically how it must be done. If something is not listed, like holding hands during the “Our Father”, it cannot legitimately be done.

This is an unauthorised, addition to the Mass. Why don’t pastors explain this to the faithful? Why do bishops allow it? Why does the Church turn a blind eye to these abuses of the liturgy?

The fact that it looks like a loving gesture does not change the fact that it is an abuse until it has been approved. Of course, if the abuse continues long enough possibly Rome will approve it, like communion in hand or altar girls. That seems to be the way the Church operates lately.

The GIRM is not the Rubrics, and the Rubrics are not the GIRM. They are two different things. The GIRM does not prohibit individual actions during Mass as long as they do not distribe the Mass and the people are not required or requested to do them in any way.

 

[PaixGioiaAmor]

The Church does *not *affirm holding hands during the Our Father. Holding hands during the Our Father is an American phenomenon, and an article I read by Karl Keating suggests it may have been borrowed from 12-step programs like AA (not exactly an organic development of the liturgy)-- I’ve attended Mass in four other foreign countries, and in none of them did I see anyone holding hands during the Our Father. It is a liturgical *abuse *because it is not in the rubrics of the Mass.

This is a straw man argument.

I am not endorsing hand holding. I was responding to the last paragraph of the original post.

 

[benedictgal]

The GIRM is not the Rubrics, and the Rubrics are not the GIRM. They are two different things. The GIRM does not prohibit individual actions during Mass as long as they do not distribe the Mass and the people are not required or requested to do them in any way.

If I may add, I like the explanation that our new Texas Cardnial, Daniel DiNardo gave. Do the red and say the black. The red, in the Roman Missal (commonly known as the Sacramentary) denotes the rubrics. The black denotes the recited prayers.

Unfortunately, things such as hand-holding during the Pater Noster crop up based on someone’s (or some group’s) idiosyncracy or taste. These so-called “innovations” really add nothing to the Mass and should, perhaps, be avoided.

It’s just another example of someone following the alleged “spirit” of Vatican II and reading things into the documents rather than reading what the papers actually said.

 

[ac_claire]

you know I was just thinking we need yet another thread about the outrage of hand-holding during mass.

 

[benedictgal]

you know I was just thinking we need yet another thread about the outrage of hand-holding during mass.

I only referenced this because that was in the OP, as the individual was the one who brought this point up.

 

[WavyGravy]

The Rubrics, or as it is termed now, GIRM, (General Instructions of the Roman Missal) lays down the rules that must be followed in celebrating the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.

Now it is obvious that it cannot possibly list everything that cannot be done during Mass, so it lists specifically how it must be done. If something is not listed, like holding hands during the “Our Father”, it cannot legitimately be done.

This is an unauthorised, addition to the Mass. Why don’t pastors explain this to the faithful? Why do bishops allow it? Why does the Church turn a blind eye to these abuses of the liturgy?

The fact that it looks like a loving gesture does not change the fact that it is an abuse until it has been approved. Of course, if the abuse continues long enough possibly Rome will approve it, like communion in hand or altar girls. That seems to be the way the Church operates lately.

Others have answered from different perspectives. Let me answer from yet another. Neither you (nor I) are the arbiter of what is or is not an “abuse” of the Mass. Nor are our personal interpretations of Church documents the final say on the matter.

We question our Protestant brethren about their personal interpretations of Scripture (which rarely seems to match other Protestants’ interpretations), yet so many of us are adamant that our personal interpretation is the correct one when it comes to Church documents. While Church documents are not Sacred Scripture, they are a great deal more nuanced, influenced and intertwined than most here would ever fathom.

I have seen some questions answered incorrectly on this forum by what appeared to be fairly capable people and this has had an impact on me. No it wasn’t because I was smarter. It was because I was able to ask the questions to others who had access to the definitive Church documents that were never even considered on this forum. In each case it was the sort of matter that pastors around the world no doubt get beat-up for because parish pundits deem the local church to be in error when it is not.

There is also the matter of authority and obedience within the Church. All too often on these pages I read where individuals clearly feel they have a lock on how the Church works (or at least how they feel it should work) yet their misunderstandings do nothing but add frustration to their spiritual lives. Often their picture of what they see to be a problem is over simplistic and naive.

There are the practical considerations I call “command and control” and “noise.” Far too many priests are not obedient to their bishops and that causes a multitude of problems. Correcting problems can often be like pushing on a rope. The Church also has some lamentable bishops. No, it’s not always been that way, nor is it everywhere that way today, but that is the reality for many dioceses, at least for now. Thankfully times are changing.

Finally, when it comes to “noise”, the bishops and priests learned a hard lesson with trying to force too many changes in too short of a time with the implementation of Vatican Council II. I think they are more than aware of this and realize it will take time to really improve – a process already well underway.

 

[rrochon]

This is a message that I copied from another thread. Sorry I don’t know how to include the message in my reply.
Re: Can the GIRM be considered to be Rubrics?

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The GIRM are the official rubrics. The rubrics in the Missale Romanum are taken directly from the GIRM.

---

Also, if you go to the bottom of this column and click on GIRM Mandatory or optionable? you will find that no one, not even a riest, may add, remove or change anything in the liturgy without permission from the bishop, according to Vatican 2. Many other good messages on the thread.

 

[porthos11]

This is a message that I copied from another thread. Sorry I don’t know how to include the message in my reply.
Re: Can the GIRM be considered to be Rubrics?

---

The GIRM are the official rubrics. The rubrics in the Missale Romanum are taken directly from the GIRM.

---

Also, if you go to the bottom of this column and click on GIRM Mandatory or optionable? you will find that no one, not even a riest, may add, remove or change anything in the liturgy without permission from the bishop, according to Vatican 2. Many other good messages on the thread.

The GIRM is not the rubrics. It is the GIRM.

The rubrics are those things that are printed in RED (Latin: rubre) in the Missal. Both the GIRM AND the rubrics are to be followed; there are no conflicts.

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

This is a message that I copied from another thread. Sorry I don’t know how to include the message in my reply.
Re: Can the GIRM be considered to be Rubrics?

---

The GIRM are the official rubrics. The rubrics in the Missale Romanum are taken directly from the GIRM.

---

Also, if you go to the bottom of this column and click on GIRM Mandatory or optionable? you will find that no one, not even a riest, may add, remove or change anything in the liturgy without permission from the bishop, according to Vatican 2. Many other good messages on the thread.

The GIRM and the Rubrics are two different things. They are however related to each other and reflect each other.

 

[buffalo]

A

When a practice continues for a time and the Church later affirms and allows the practice, it is not an abuse. It is allowable and sanctioned by the Church. If you still call it an abuse and find fault with the Church, that is a problem of obedience on your part.

What practice has been officially affirmed?

 

[PaixGioiaAmor]

Of course, if the abuse continues long enough possibly Rome will approve it, like communion in hand or altar girls. That seems to be the way the Church operates lately.

These have been approved. That is what I was referring to when I wrote what you quoted me saying above.

 

[THurifer2]

This is a straw man argument.

I am not endorsing hand holding. I was responding to the last paragraph of the original post.

It is not mandated though is it?

Who is more in the wrong, the person who makes the other person uncomfortable by outstreching thier hand or the person who declines?

Which one is following the correct way?

This whole issue is silly…I think. The prayer is a vertical prayer. The holy Father has indicated in his book the spirit of the Liturgy (when he was Joe) that there are exclusively vertical elements of the mass.

Paix you must at least admit that the action of holding hands is an innovation that came from a place other than those who are entrusted with charge of our Liturgy.

 

[Digitonomy]

It is not mandated though is it?

Paix you must at least admit that the action of holding hands is an innovation that came from a place other than those who are entrusted with charge of our Liturgy.

Paix was not talking about hand holding at all, as he just explained above.

 

[THurifer2]

These have been approved. That is what I was referring to when I wrote what you quoted me saying above.

Approved yes one by indult and the other by allowance.

I believe the previous poster was pointing out that the two practices were being done prior to being allowed. There is sufficient evidence that both were being practiced prior being allowed.

Pretty much adds emphasis to your previous point in saying that some things are done so commonly that they get approved at least more commonly here in the U.S. of A where there seems to be a climate of “detachement” from Rome.

Seems to be quite a bit of animosity towards the vatican nowadays.

 

[meh56]

What i don’t like is when the priest changes the word Father to Creator. They are afraid they may ofend women.

 

[THurifer2]

What i don’t like is when the priest changes the word Father to Creator. They are afraid they may ofend women.

Changing the words of Mass is an abuse…and can be a grave matter…