Rules regarding Marriage?

[engaged92008]

Hi,
I’m new to the forums, but am looking for some answers.

My fiance and I got engaged in Sept., we were both raised Catholic, each having been baptized, received first communion, confirmation, and attended church regularly until a few years ago. We moved to a different city, away from our families/hometown, and have just never made it a priority to find a church to attend, but still attend when we’re visiting our hometown on weekends, a few times a year.

Our families are Catholic, and want us to be married in the Catholic Church.

My fiance also would like for us to be married Catholic. I am not so sure.

I have had doubts about the religion since I was 18, which is about 10 years now. Not doubts about my faith, just about the Catholic Church and its teachings/rituals, etc. I’m not a “religious” person, although I do believe in God and have faith. I just don’t agree with some of the things the Catholic Church practices and rules they adhere to, such as: I support gay marriage, I am a strong supporter of women’s rights, therefore I feel that women should be allowed to be priests, and I am pro-choice. Please, no judgment. These are MY beliefs and I’d appreciate it if no one criticized me for them. Thank you in advance.

My questions are these:

1. If we are married by a Christian Rev. or minister, not in a Catholic Church, or by a Catholic Priest, does this still mean we are married in the eyes of God?
2. If we someday decide to be married in the Catholic Church, can we still do that, even though we’d already be married by law/non-catholic minister?
3. Why do churches charge upwards of $800-1000 to perform a wedding ceremony in their church? Seems like an awful lot.

Thank you all in advance for your responses. I am appreciative and will take to heart any advice that is given.

 

[FrDavid96]

Hi,
I’m new to the forums, but am looking for some answers.

My fiance and I got engaged in Sept., we were both raised Catholic, each having been baptized, received first communion, confirmation, and attended church regularly until a few years ago. We moved to a different city, away from our families/hometown, and have just never made it a priority to find a church to attend, but still attend when we’re visiting our hometown on weekends, a few times a year.

Our families are Catholic, and want us to be married in the Catholic Church.

My fiance also would like for us to be married Catholic. I am not so sure.

I have had doubts about the religion since I was 18, which is about 10 years now. Not doubts about my faith, just about the Catholic Church and its teachings/rituals, etc. I’m not a “religious” person, although I do believe in God and have faith. I just don’t agree with some of the things the Catholic Church practices and rules they adhere to, such as: I support gay marriage, I am a strong supporter of women’s rights, therefore I feel that women should be allowed to be priests, and I am pro-choice. Please, no judgment. These are MY beliefs and I’d appreciate it if no one criticized me for them. Thank you in advance.

My questions are these:

1. If we are married by a Christian Rev. or minister, not in a Catholic Church, or by a Catholic Priest, does this still mean we are married in the eyes of God?
2. If we someday decide to be married in the Catholic Church, can we still do that, even though we’d already be married by law/non-catholic minister?
3. Why do churches charge upwards of $800-1000 to perform a wedding ceremony in their church? Seems like an awful lot.

Thank you all in advance for your responses. I am appreciative and will take to heart any advice that is given.

OK. I’ll give you direct answers.

1. Such a marriage would be considered a civil marriage or a non-Catholic marriage. It would still be a marriage (assuming you meet all the requirements of the state, and it’s “legal”)
2. Yes. It’s called a “convalidation” It is possible. I say it’s possible, but every case is different.
3. To pay for the many expenses involved in the wedding and preparation. Utilities, cleaning fees, books for preparation, etc. etc. The salary for the organist, wedding coordinator (if there is one), and everyone else involved. Those expenses add up quickly, and many people just don’t realize how expensive it is for the parish to hold a wedding. The Sacraments themselves are always free. Anyone who cannot afford these “fees” is never to be denied any Sacrament. How much would it cost to rent a commercial hall of the same size as the church?

 

[dhgray]

FIST OF ALL WELCOME TO THE FORUM
WE ARE GLAD YOU ARE HERE :dancing:
CONTRATZ ON YOUR ENGAGEMENT :clapping:

Now down to business:

My questions are these:

1. If we are married by a Christian Rev. or minister, not in a Catholic Church, or by a Catholic Priest, does this still mean we are married in the eyes of God?

Simple answer is “YES” You are still married in the eyes of God. However, in order for the marriage to be held to the level of being a sacramental marriage, you woul either have to be married by a Catholic Priest or have the marriage blessed by a priest.

1. If we someday decide to be married in the Catholic Church, can we still do that, even though we’d already be married by law/non-catholic minister?

If you were married by law,you would have to be married in the Church. If you were married by a non-Catholic minister, you would only have to receive a blessing from the Church (by a Priest).

1. Why do churches charge upwards of $800-1000 to perform a wedding ceremony in their church? Seems like an awful lot.

Sounds like a lot to me too. Normally the Church only asks for a donation (some call it a fee/charge) for the Rental of the building (church), the priests time, for the alter servers and music ministry. Pretty much the same fees you will pay if you go to the Justice of the Peace. (big difference is you can write the Church off on your taxes ). I have a friend who just got married and all the Priest asked if for him to donate his time to helping the food pantry.

Thank you all in advance for your responses. I am appreciative and will take to heart any advice that is given.

 

[FrDavid96]

FIST OF ALL WELCOME TO THE FORUM
WE ARE GLAD YOU ARE HERE :dancing:
CONTRATZ ON YOUR ENGAGEMENT :clapping:

Now down to business:

Simple answer is “YES” You are still married in the eyes of God. However, in order for the marriage to be held to the level of being a sacramental marriage, you woul either have to be married by a Catholic Priest or have the marriage blessed by a priest.

If you were married by law,you would have to be married in the Church. If you were married by a non-Catholic minister, you would only have to receive a blessing from the Church (by a Priest).

Sounds like a lot to me too. Normally the Church only asks for a donation (some call it a fee/charge) for the Rental of the building (church), the priests time, for the alter servers and music ministry. Pretty much the same fees you will pay if you go to the Justice of the Peace. (big difference is you can write the Church off on your taxes ). I have a friend who just got married and all the Priest asked if for him to donate his time to helping the food pantry.

Thank you all in advance for your responses. I am appreciative and will take to heart any advice that is given.

Dhgray,

A convalidation is a convalidation. It matters not whether the first marriage was performed by a civil authority (like a judge) or a non-Catholic minister. The convalidation rite is the same.

Be careful about giving tax advice on the internet. Money given to a church is not necessarily tax-deductible. It has to be given without receiving anything of material value in exchange. This can get complicated.

Thanks for helping the OP.

 

[Nechasin]

My questions are these:

1. If we are married by a Christian Rev. or minister, not in a Catholic Church, or by a Catholic Priest, does this still mean we are married in the eyes of God?

According to the Catholic church you are not married. This is actually one of the grounds for a Decree of Nullity and is why people who do this must have a convalidation in order for their marriage to be recognized by the Church. But I suspect you already knew this or you wouldn’t be asking the question. Also, if you don’t care what the Church thinks about the other issues, this won’t be an issue for you in this life either.

1. If we someday decide to be married in the Catholic Church, can we still do that, even though we’d already be married by law/non-catholic minister?

Yes

1. Why do churches charge upwards of $800-1000 to perform a wedding ceremony in their church? Seems like an awful lot.

Several reasons. The church cost are expensive and they need to be covered. Also, many times there are also trying to prevent church shopping from people who want to get married in a “pretty” church. Many times, the priest will do a marriage for little or no cost if it is purely a no thrills wedding. Like during a daily Mass.

Good luck on your Faith journey and may God open your heart to see the fullness of truth.

 

[dhgray]

Dhgray,

A convalidation is a convalidation. It matters not whether the first marriage was performed by a civil authority (like a judge) or a non-Catholic minister. The convalidation rite is the same.

Be careful about giving tax advice on the internet. Money given to a church is not necessarily tax-deductible. It has to be given without receiving anything of material value in exchange. This can get complicated.

Thanks for helping the OP.

Thanks for keeping me straight.

 

[mercygate]

Any church you approach to perform your wedding ceremony will likely have fees for covering expenses, such as electricity, insurance, heat/air conditioning, clean-up, set-up, etc. That’s not a “Catholic” thing.

 

[FrDavid96]

According to the Catholic church you are not married.

Not true. The Church recognizes the authority of the state to perform marriages. If a couple has been legally married, the Church considers it a civil marriage (though not necessarily a sacrament).

 

[Aramis]

Hi,
I’m new to the forums, but am looking for some answers.

My fiance and I got engaged in Sept., we were both raised Catholic, each having been baptized, received first communion, confirmation, and attended church regularly until a few years ago. We moved to a different city, away from our families/hometown, and have just never made it a priority to find a church to attend, but still attend when we’re visiting our hometown on weekends, a few times a year.

Our families are Catholic, and want us to be married in the Catholic Church.

My fiance also would like for us to be married Catholic. I am not so sure.

I have had doubts about the religion since I was 18, which is about 10 years now. Not doubts about my faith, just about the Catholic Church and its teachings/rituals, etc. I’m not a “religious” person, although I do believe in God and have faith. I just don’t agree with some of the things the Catholic Church practices and rules they adhere to, such as: I support gay marriage, I am a strong supporter of women’s rights, therefore I feel that women should be allowed to be priests, and I am pro-choice. Please, no judgment. These are MY beliefs and I’d appreciate it if no one criticized me for them. Thank you in advance.

My questions are these:

1. If we are married by a Christian Rev. or minister, not in a Catholic Church, or by a Catholic Priest, does this still mean we are married in the eyes of God?
2. If we someday decide to be married in the Catholic Church, can we still do that, even though we’d already be married by law/non-catholic minister?
3. Why do churches charge upwards of $800-1000 to perform a wedding ceremony in their church? Seems like an awful lot.

Thank you all in advance for your responses. I am appreciative and will take to heart any advice that is given.

1. Maybe, but certainly not in the eyes of the Catholic Church nor informed Catholics. (If neither of you were catholics, then it would be valid; if either is, then it must be a Catholic wedding to be recognized by the church as a valid wedding.)
2. Yes; it’s possible. Until then, tho’, you’d be living in a state of fornication and possibly adultery.
3. They shouldn’t. The use of the Church itself should be a donation (and you should cover the needed costs for heat and setup), but generally, that sounds rather steep.

 

[Nechasin]

Not true. The Church recognizes the authority of the state to perform marriages. If a couple has been legally married, the Church considers it a civil marriage (though not necessarily a sacrament).

I was always under the belief that if a Catholic married outside of the church without a dispensation that it was an invalid marriage in the eyes of the church and if they are participating in the marital act, that they should refrain from receiving communion.

Here is a link that states the validity of marriage for those that like that sort of thing.
vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P40.HTM

 

[engaged92008]

Thanks to all for your help!

In terms of the hall rental fees someone asked about… we are actually having the reception at a outdoor location, the ranch of a family friend, so we don’t have any fees for that. If we end up hiring a minister to come officiate an outdoor ceremony there, it would only cost a couple hundred for that. (Speaking of which, does anyone know if Catholic Priests will perform marriage ceremonies outside of a chuch?)

If I only wanted a ceremony, not an entire mass, for my particular wedding, would the fees decrease? The churches I called for pricing did not mention that.

One more follow-up question… how does a priest “bless the marriage” following a civil ceremony? Are there time limits, costs, classes, etc…?

Thanks again!

 

[agapewolf]

I guess the main question is here, why in the world do you want a Catholic wedding if you don’t want a Catholic marriage?

You don’t agree with some teachings, ok fine. Then why are you worried about obeying the other ones? Why the concern for having it in the eyes of God through the Church when you don’t trust her in the first place?
Having a wedding in a catholic church is to be a part of the community…not for the sake of the building itself. Priests will not marry outside of approved Church grounds.

Please do not disrespect the sacraments by putting on a show, which is what this will be. In order to be married in the church, one has to say they will accept children openly and freely. One has to come freely.

Please instead…maybe study about why the church teaches what she does, and also why there are such canon laws that guide us to keeping our marriages regular. The humanly marriage on earth is merely an icon …points us to the real marriage…the one of Christ to His church (which is why there is no “gay” marriage). Christ is male (in the father, the initiator of the gift), and the church is His spouse…the receiver of the gift. I really encourage you to study the church. The very nature of your statements about your disagreements show that you are really not well informed of what the church actually teaches about some things.

Your questions here are offensive to practicing Catholics. You are asking how to skirt by rules, disobey rules, and sin…but make it ok later… that is the sin of presumption.

 

[Phemie]

One more follow-up question… how does a priest “bless the marriage” following a civil ceremony? Are there time limits, costs, classes, etc…?

Thanks again!

The priest does not ‘bless the marriage’, you actually get married in the Catholic Church. A convalidation recognizes that a legal marriage exists but you speak your vows again in front of a priest/deacon & 2 witnesses and as far as the Church is concerned your VALID marriage starts there. The preparation for a convalidation may be identical to what any couple seeking to marry will have to do. Certainly the paperwork is the same.

I guess I don’t understand why, if your fiance wants to get married in the Catholic Church, you wouldn’t want do it that way, even if you have doubts.

 

[engaged92008]

Your questions here are offensive to practicing Catholics. You are asking how to skirt by rules, disobey rules, and sin…but make it ok later… that is the sin of presumption.

I apologize if you found my questions offensive. I completely agree with you on one point. If I had it my way entirely, I wouldn’t have a Catholic wedding at all. I don’t think it’s right to have to “put on a show.” But the bottom line is that my family and fiance DO want a Catholic wedding, and don’t care if it’s something I believe in/don’t believe in. And they ARE practicing Catholics. I’m not trying to “skirt by rules” I’m just trying to make everyone happy. It would make me happy to make my family and fiance happy.

I asked for no judgment. I certainly expected to receive a little though, so I understand your feelings, and again, I apologize if I’ve offended anyone here. I just want to know what others may have done, and what my options are. I love my family and want them to be happy and feel comfortable with my marriage.

Thanks.

 

[quiet52]

One more follow-up question… how does a priest “bless the marriage” following a civil ceremony? Are there time limits, costs, classes, etc…?

You asked about “someday” being married in the Catholic Church. You should not presume that it’s automatic, simply because you want it. You’d need to demonstrate to the priest that being Catholic matters to you, that you understand the Catholic sacrament of Matrimony, and that you want to live as a Catholic.

Also, “blessing” isn’t the appropriate term, if you want to be married in the Catholic Church.

This is from my diocese’s marriage norms:

“A validation or convalidation is the procedure for making valid a marriage that was not recognized or invalid because of a lack of canonical form, a defect of canonical form, an impediment, or a defect of consent. In the case of any validation or convalidation, it must be certain that the parties intend to persevere in conjugal life.”

“Lack of Canonical Form Marriages: A marriage is inefficacious due to a lack of canonical of form in situations where a Catholic has married outside of the Catholic Church in a non-Catholic religious or civil ceremony but without a dispensation from canonical form. Such situations require validation in the Catholic Church.”

“Although such couples are not free to receive Holy Communion, such couples are not considered to be living in concubinage: ‘Their situation cannot of course be likened to that of
people simply living together without any bond at all, because in the present case there is at least a certain commitment to a properly defined and probably stable form of life… By seeking
public recognition of their bond on the part of the State, such couples show that they are ready to accept not only its advantages but also its obligations’ (Pope John Paul II, Familiaris
Consortio 82).”

“The amount of marriage preparation should take into account the circumstances. For couples married outside of the Catholic Church for a short period of time, the usual marriage preparation programs would be appropriate. For couples married outside of the Catholic Church for longer periods of time who have demonstrated a stability of commitment, participation in a Marriage Encounter program might be a more suitable alternative to premarital programs. Special assessment tools are available for validations (e.g., REFOCCUS).”

“In addition to all of the usual canonical marriage paperwork, a copy of the couple’s civil marriage certificate is also required. However, a new civil marriage license and civil authorization for the cleric to officiate at the validation or convalidation is not required.”

“A validation ordinarily requires a new rite of marriage being celebrated according to the canonical form. The parties should not be told that it is a mere “blessing” of a marriage. This
would likely result in the validation being invalid. The parties should understand that, in the eyes of the Catholic Church, the marriage in the Church is the true marriage.”

 

[agapewolf]

I apologize if you found my questions offensive. I completely agree with you on one point. If I had it my way entirely, I wouldn’t have a Catholic wedding at all. I don’t think it’s right to have to “put on a show.” But the bottom line is that my family and fiance DO want a Catholic wedding, and don’t care if it’s something I believe in/don’t believe in. And they ARE practicing Catholics. I’m not trying to “skirt by rules” I’m just trying to make everyone happy. It would make me happy to make my family and fiance happy.

I asked for no judgment. I certainly expected to receive a little though, so I understand your feelings, and again, I apologize if I’ve offended anyone here. I just want to know what others may have done, and what my options are. I love my family and want them to be happy and feel comfortable with my marriage.

Thanks.

But see, there was no judgement. I am in no way judging your heart. I have no idea where you have come from and what you have experienced. I’m not judging you for believing what you have.

I’m telling you though, that certain actions are sinful. Objectively. They can spiritually hurt you. I’m trying to look out for your soul here.

When people say they want a “catholic wedding” for their family member, what they are really wanting is a Catholic marriage. The catholic wedding would be the commitment to the Catholic marriage. If entered into freely and validly, it has the avenue for God’s grace with the sacrament. (if both are baptized).

Please please please…do some research. I think you will find that the Catholic church is the MOST supportive of women’s rights and their dignity. It holds women up to such a high regard that it is making the hard jobs go to the men. It upholds Human life in such a high regard that it doesn’t put one’s life value over another.

 

[mercygate]

I apologize if you found my questions offensive. I completely agree with you on one point. If I had it my way entirely, I wouldn’t have a Catholic wedding at all. I don’t think it’s right to have to “put on a show.” But the bottom line is that my family and fiance DO want a Catholic wedding, and don’t care if it’s something I believe in/don’t believe in. And they ARE practicing Catholics. I’m not trying to “skirt by rules” I’m just trying to make everyone happy. It would make me happy to make my family and fiance happy.

I asked for no judgment. I certainly expected to receive a little though, so I understand your feelings, and again, I apologize if I’ve offended anyone here. I just want to know what others may have done, and what my options are. I love my family and want them to be happy and feel comfortable with my marriage.

Thanks.

You sound like a very warm-hearted person. I wish you much happiness in your marriage. I hope that one of the very pleasant surprises you will have as you approach marriage in the Church is coming to an understanding of WHY the Church stands where she does on some of the issues that trouble you.

I have never known anybody who explored the Church’s positions on the life issues with an open mind, who did not come away with at LEAST a strong respect for the Church’s stance. Generally, in the media, the Church’s position is portrayed as backward, anti-scientific, anti-social, anti-woman, anti-anything you can think of. Of course, nothing could be further from the truth!

In my own case, I was actually drawn to the Church partly because I had been “converted” to the pro-life position by reading the Lutheran ethicist, Dieterich Bonhoeffer.

 

[dhgray]

I asked for no judgment. I certainly expected to receive a little though, so I understand your feelings, and again, I apologize if I’ve offended anyone here. I just want to know what others may have done, and what my options are. I love my family and want them to be happy and feel comfortable with my marriage.

Thanks.

No offense taken. I think you should REALLY talk to a local Priest. A good face-to-face is better than a bunch of postings. Call a local parish and ask to speak to a priest.

The ultamate questions really is, “Since neither you or your future wife is practicing, how will you raise the Children in the Catholic Faith?”

It’s ok to question the faith. When ever I question the faith, I don’t just shut down the teaching, I try to find out why the Church believes the way it does. I may not understand why, but I do believe there is wisdom in the teachings.

AT THIS POINT, I RECOMMEND YOU PRAY FOR GUIDANCE and call a priest.

We are here for you.

 

[RichT]

Something to keep in mind is that the Catholic church you choose to be married in will require you to go through some marriage prep course. Since you are a Catholic, you will be asked to make a promise that you raise your children in the Catholic church. If you do not believe what the church teaches, then you will be in a sense putting on a show to please others in your family.

Is this fair to them, or to your bride to be? Does your bride to be want a Catholic wedding? Does she know how you fell about the church? For the sake of both of you, you really should make sure you are on the same page. Not judging, just trying to be honest, thats all.

 

[Phemie]

Something to keep in mind is that the Catholic church you choose to be married in will require you to go through some marriage prep course. Since you are a Catholic, you will be asked to make a promise that you raise your children in the Catholic church. If you do not believe what the church teaches, then you will be in a sense putting on a show to please others in your family.

Is this fair to them, or to your bride to be? Does your bride to be want a Catholic wedding? Does she know how you fell about the church? For the sake of both of you, you really should make sure you are on the same page. Not judging, just trying to be honest, thats all.

Both of these people are Catholic. One wants a Catholic wedding, the other who is having doubts about the Catholic Faith, doesn’t particularly want that.