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edwest2
Guest
Who are the Russians persecuting? They have a just and reasonable law in place, and the topic should not, and does not, focus on any sort of persecution.
Peace,
Ed
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Peace,
Ed
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edwest2
Guest
False argument, since violence against gays occurs in the United States as well. Russia is not a special case.
Peace,
Ed
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edwest2
Guest
That is 100% false.the main support for Putin’s new pogom against gays began in the rural areas of Russia. This whole “crackdown” is purely political, not moral.
christianpost.com/news/russian-orthodox-patriarch-calls-gay-marriage-legalization-apocalyptic-symptom-100701/
Peace,
Ed
Comrade, I have not heard use word pogrom long time. Not right. Means massacr.
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Catherine_S
Guest
It is difficult for we in the West to accept that others in the world may be standing on higher moral ground at this* point in time…*
Putin added Thursday that the Church was giving Russians a moral compass when so many were looking for help. “Today when people are once again searching for moral support, millions of our compatriots see it in religion,” he said. “They trust the wise, pastoral word of the Russian Orthodox Church.”
He added that it was the Church that was ultimately responsible for the development and rise of “culture and education” in Russia over the last 1,000 years. “The adoption of Christianity became a turning point in the fate of our fatherland, made it an inseparable part of the Christian civilization and helped it turn into one of the largest world powers,” Putin said.
http://www.lifesitenews.com/news/world-leaders-should-unite-to-end-anti-christian-persecution-vladimir-putin/
Putin added Thursday that the Church was giving Russians a moral compass when so many were looking for help. “Today when people are once again searching for moral support, millions of our compatriots see it in religion,” he said. “They trust the wise, pastoral word of the Russian Orthodox Church.”
He added that it was the Church that was ultimately responsible for the development and rise of “culture and education” in Russia over the last 1,000 years. “The adoption of Christianity became a turning point in the fate of our fatherland, made it an inseparable part of the Christian civilization and helped it turn into one of the largest world powers,” Putin said.
http://www.lifesitenews.com/news/world-leaders-should-unite-to-end-anti-christian-persecution-vladimir-putin/
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gsl2006
Guest
Russia and American homosexuals
Three months baby (born on Wednesday, June 26, 2013 by a 5-4 vote) grows, isn’t it?
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CONCEPTION (treating gay people as legal subjects, though undesired)
DOMA, signed by President Bill Clinton in 1996, prevented same-sex couples whose marriages were recognized by their home state from receiving the hundreds of benefits available to other married couples under federal law.
BIRTH
At age 83, Edith Windsor gets plenty of compliments for her courage to take on the federal government in a landmark case that has put attitudes about gay America squarely before the Supreme Court.
…]the Philadelphia-born former IBM executive scoffs at how much gumption was necessary to go to court at a time when societal views of gay relationships are shifting.
It was a moment she could not fathom when her heart nearly gave out after the 2009 death of her spouse, Thea Clara Spyer, less than two years after their marriage in Canada.
But the Philadelphia-born former IBM executive scoffs at how much gumption was necessary to go to court at a time when societal views of gay relationships are shifting.
Justice Kennedy delivered the court’s opinion, and was joined by Justices Ruth Bader Ginsburg, Stephen Breyer, Sonia Sotomayor and Elena Kagan. Chief Justice John Roberts and Justices Antonin Scalia and Samuel Alito all filed dissenting opinions. Justice Clarence Thomas joined Scalia’s dissent in whole and parts of Alito’s opinion.
FIRST STEPS
The D.C. Superior Court is expanding its marriage license bureau as a result of increased demand (hailstorm?) in the District for licenses and weddings following a recent same-sex marriage ruling by the Supreme Court.
Three months baby (born on Wednesday, June 26, 2013 by a 5-4 vote) grows, isn’t it?
==============
Baby’s Life in Brief
CONCEPTION (treating gay people as legal subjects, though undesired)DOMA, signed by President Bill Clinton in 1996, prevented same-sex couples whose marriages were recognized by their home state from receiving the hundreds of benefits available to other married couples under federal law.
BIRTH
At age 83, Edith Windsor gets plenty of compliments for her courage to take on the federal government in a landmark case that has put attitudes about gay America squarely before the Supreme Court.
…]the Philadelphia-born former IBM executive scoffs at how much gumption was necessary to go to court at a time when societal views of gay relationships are shifting.
It was a moment she could not fathom when her heart nearly gave out after the 2009 death of her spouse, Thea Clara Spyer, less than two years after their marriage in Canada.
But the Philadelphia-born former IBM executive scoffs at how much gumption was necessary to go to court at a time when societal views of gay relationships are shifting.
Justice Kennedy delivered the court’s opinion, and was joined by Justices Ruth Bader Ginsburg, Stephen Breyer, Sonia Sotomayor and Elena Kagan. Chief Justice John Roberts and Justices Antonin Scalia and Samuel Alito all filed dissenting opinions. Justice Clarence Thomas joined Scalia’s dissent in whole and parts of Alito’s opinion.
FIRST STEPS
The D.C. Superior Court is expanding its marriage license bureau as a result of increased demand (hailstorm?) in the District for licenses and weddings following a recent same-sex marriage ruling by the Supreme Court.
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gsl2006
Guest
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brjoseph
Guest
Christ refused to allow the condemnation of the adulterous woman.
He never said what she’d done was acceptable.
He never said her accusers were incorrect.
He also managed to defend her, showing unflagging love and compassion.
Something to consider… when he said “Go, and sin no more,” should we not assume it also applies to our own penchant for judging the sins of others?
Even in righteousness, we can find ourselves in prideful, arrogant and deeply presumptuous sin.
Which of us, in what state of life is in a position to pass judgement on other sinners? To whom among us has Christ given the command to drive sin out of someone else’s life? From what moral position are my sins “less” than those of others? Who among us is ready to throw the first stone?
Does it MATTER if we’re talking about this woman, or a gay person, or our own secret, undiscussed and humiliating sins, great and small? Which of OUR sins… which of MY sins didn’t pierce the hands and feet of my Lord and fix Him to the cross? Did YOUR nails and thorns hurt him less than a homosexuals did? Were the stings and tears of the lash of MY sins softer than a gay person’s blows at the pillar?
We CAN NOT look at any person- gay, straight, or anything else- as “less.” Every other sinner- no matter the sin- is our brother, our sister, and in them resides the Christ we must look for and see!
For any Christian to do less is weak, lame and unworthy of the Catholic faith to which we’re called.
There is no sinner that we are “better” than. No one that Christ says we may look down on or judge.
How about instead of seeing them as “Gay People,” we first, foremost and ONLY see them as PEOPLE, sinners no better or worse than ourselves, who are being victimized for their perceived sins by people who choose to ignore their own?
If I see myself as somehow morally, ethically or spiritually “superior” to any other poor sinner, I have utterly missed the entire point of Christ’s teaching, and devalued his finished work on the Cross.
God forbid we ever see in others some sin upon which we think we’re in a position ourselves to look down.
Blessed Dorothy Day, pray for us!
He never said what she’d done was acceptable.
He never said her accusers were incorrect.
He also managed to defend her, showing unflagging love and compassion.
Something to consider… when he said “Go, and sin no more,” should we not assume it also applies to our own penchant for judging the sins of others?
Even in righteousness, we can find ourselves in prideful, arrogant and deeply presumptuous sin.
Which of us, in what state of life is in a position to pass judgement on other sinners? To whom among us has Christ given the command to drive sin out of someone else’s life? From what moral position are my sins “less” than those of others? Who among us is ready to throw the first stone?
Does it MATTER if we’re talking about this woman, or a gay person, or our own secret, undiscussed and humiliating sins, great and small? Which of OUR sins… which of MY sins didn’t pierce the hands and feet of my Lord and fix Him to the cross? Did YOUR nails and thorns hurt him less than a homosexuals did? Were the stings and tears of the lash of MY sins softer than a gay person’s blows at the pillar?
We CAN NOT look at any person- gay, straight, or anything else- as “less.” Every other sinner- no matter the sin- is our brother, our sister, and in them resides the Christ we must look for and see!
For any Christian to do less is weak, lame and unworthy of the Catholic faith to which we’re called.
There is no sinner that we are “better” than. No one that Christ says we may look down on or judge.
How about instead of seeing them as “Gay People,” we first, foremost and ONLY see them as PEOPLE, sinners no better or worse than ourselves, who are being victimized for their perceived sins by people who choose to ignore their own?
If I see myself as somehow morally, ethically or spiritually “superior” to any other poor sinner, I have utterly missed the entire point of Christ’s teaching, and devalued his finished work on the Cross.
God forbid we ever see in others some sin upon which we think we’re in a position ourselves to look down.
Blessed Dorothy Day, pray for us!
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Elizabeth502
Guest
And if you see your post as somehow addressing the subject of this thread, you have utterly missed the entire point of the thread. The thread is about specific actions taken in Russia regarding the promotion of homosexual behavior. Not sermons about “judging.”
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edwest2
Guest
Well said.And if you see your post as somehow addressing the subject of this thread, you have utterly missed the entire point of the thread. The thread is about specific actions taken in Russia regarding the promotion of homosexual behavior. Not sermons about “judging.”
Ed
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livingwordunity
Guest
I was pointing out the fact that there is a double standard that favors homosexuals while ignoring the persecution of Christians despite the fact that persecution happens a lot more frequently to Christians. I didn’t say that it’s better for a homosexual to die as you have suggested.
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VanSensei
Guest
We should never mistreat homosexuals, but at the same time not endorse their sin.
I do think I have a reason for why Russia is enacting this law, however. I’ve heard that due to the monumental casualties of the Second World War, the sex ratio in Russia is supposedly very off. The government wants to bring this back up and endorse the traditional family. Homosexuals can have a family, but it’s not the family Putin’s government wants.
I do think I have a reason for why Russia is enacting this law, however. I’ve heard that due to the monumental casualties of the Second World War, the sex ratio in Russia is supposedly very off. The government wants to bring this back up and endorse the traditional family. Homosexuals can have a family, but it’s not the family Putin’s government wants.
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brjoseph
Guest
I respectfully disagree with you both. Human beings are being targeted for abuse. That’s really the end of the discussion from a Christian perspective. Now, it wasn’t me who introduced the idea of the moral problems of homosexuality into the discussion, nor was it me who brought up the illustration of the adulterous woman, NOR did I bring up the old “hate the sin, love the sinner” chestnut… and people have certainly been acting as if what the Russians are doing is no problem, because their laws are what they are… so, what I’ve said was in no way a sermon; it was every bit a cry for action. We decry homosexual acts, sure; what are we DOING to “love the sinner?” What form is this “love” taking?
While we’re discussing this stuff, are we actively praying for these peoples’ safety and an end to the violence and the policies which allow it, or is this just a distant, academic discussion about what’s happening?
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Starrsmother
Guest
The sad but simple fact is that NO American outcry is going to change Russian law. Even Russian outcry doesn’t change Russian law. All I am saying is that of all the Russian laws that I have heard of and of all the Russian persecutions that are historically documented, at least this one has a slightly moral base. If a Russian is gay and wants to continue his or her activity without landing in jail, the bottom line is that said person better keep it in their own bedroom and not put on a pink tutu and march through Red Square passing out pamphlets. Frankly, I kinda wish San Francisco would try the same thing!
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brjoseph
Guest
I find this a bit shocking, and I hope you’re kidding and I’m just too dense or tired to see the joke…The sad but simple fact is that NO American outcry is going to change Russian law. Even Russian outcry doesn’t change Russian law. All I am saying is that of all the Russian laws that I have heard of and of all the Russian persecutions that are historically documented, at least this one has a slightly moral base. If a Russian is gay and wants to continue his or her activity without landing in jail, the bottom line is that said person better keep it in their own bedroom and not put on a pink tutu and march through Red Square passing out pamphlets. Frankly, I kinda wish San Francisco would try the same thing!
There is absolutely no situation in which people are being targeted and beaten in the street while the law looks the other way or even condones it that any Christian can POSSIBLY think is even a little bit “moral.”
I don’t care WHAT the sin happens to be… how can we see this and feel anything but compassion for the victim?
The people who tortured and murdered Christ had the law on their side, too. Wrong is wrong.
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Starrsmother
Guest
NOBODY–at least no Christian–believes in beating ANYONE in the street. If individual Russian citizens interpret the new law to allow them to act in such a way, they are doing something horribly wrong. However, the law in itself does not say–at least so far as I have read it—that vigilante justice is approved by the Russian system. I’m certain that some individuals might approach it this way much as some people here think vigilante justice is their right too–but if so, they are wrong. The actual Russian law itself however–which basically tells the homosexual community that they can’t be out passing pamphlets out in the street and having gay parades, has some merit, in my opinion, if you think it through. That’s all I am saying.
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brjoseph
Guest
I’m confused. The law gives them permission to engage in “vigilante justice,” which has resulted in bloody beatings, hospitalizations and permanent injury… and you’re saying you’re OK with vigilante justice, but not beatings?
I happen to value freedom of speech. OUR laws don’t give me room to decide on my own what’s acceptable and what’s not, and I served the country to protect the right of even people I disagree with entirely to speak their mind. There is absolutely NO merit to a system that says, “Hey, they’re wrong… go ahead and beat 'em down if you want!”
How can we, as Americans or as Catholics, say or even think that such laws are even worth a thought??
Let’s try it like this: Ok, let’s say the US had laws allowing for what you call, “vigilante justice.”
Who would Jesus have the Apostles gang up on first? Gays? Lesbians? Maybe he’d hold someone down so the rest could take turns?
No, dear sister… there is NOTHING in what the Russians are doing that Christians can possibly get behind. Jesus says, “As you did it to the least of these, YOU DID IT TO ME.”
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holyrood
Guest
I, too, am confused. Didn’t she say quite clearly and explicitly that beating people is NOT acceptable, and that they should NOT be practicing vigilante justice??
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Starrsmother
Guest
I am NOT in favor of vigilante justice. Perhaps you should take the matter up with Putin if you think he will listen!
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edwest2
Guest
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Catherine_S
Guest
In terms of the Lord’s teachings on love, does that scripture ** include** young people **not being led down the garden path into a life * of disease and immorality as well? I think it does!!
Norecruiting allowed in Russia when it comes to Homosexuality is a very good thing. *
**
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