RUSSIA - UKRAINE - Patriarch Kirill congratulates newly elected Ukrainian president, attacks Greek Catholics [AN]

[Catholic_Press]

Petro Poroshenko is an Orthodox Christian. The Russian Orthodox primate wants friendly relations with Ukrainian authorities, concerned about the uncertain future of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church-Moscow Patriarchate, which is becoming increasingly “autonomous”. Kirill describes Greek Catholics as Russophobes.

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[Athanasiy]

The areas of the Greek-Catholic culture in Ukraine are the areas of highest tolerance and hospitality. And any Russian tourist will confirm this. No Russophobia.
Even Russian-speaking refugees were accepted with cheerfulness.
The matter is that state-creative ecclesiology ( Byzantyne Catholics) is different from state-destructive ecclesiology. (‘Russian World’ doctrine) And here is the core of misundertsanding.

 

[dvdjs]

Huh? Perhaps you can provide answers to your questions that reflect reality and make sense of your idea that Patriarch’s point seems to have been proved…

 

[dvdjs]

Still looking for an answer to this: “And where were these refugees coming from and why.” and a hint of how it makes any conclusion seem apparent.

And what does the see below quote prove? Please elaborate.

 

[WetCatechumen]

Russophobes?

After many centuries of religious and ethnic persecution, I think Ukrainian Catholics have a right to be wary of Russia.

 

[Aramis]

Wrong. Dead wrong.

The Russian state has consistently, in modern times (which is axiomatically anything post 1965), persecuted Catholics in Russia to a level that is only exceeded by the horrors of the Nazis. Forced labor camps (essentially death camps). Executions for treason.

Glasnost reduced this - and the Roman rite is officially tolerated as a foreign religion since then - but Russia has no real sense of freedom of religion. And there is still distrust on the official level of all religions “foreign to Russia.”

The Catholic Church has never been doing that level of evil. The Russian Orthodox Church hasn’t openly endorsed the evils of the Soviets and later the Russian Republic, but neither has it repudiated the Russian State for them.

And the Russian Orthodox have ALWAYS had the protection of the Russian State from any would be persecutors from Catholic cultures. Even when the state was attacking the Russian Church, it was doing so to a far lower degree than the Russian state did versus EVERY other faith.

 

[josie_L]

Yeah, because there are so many of them in Russia, and you know those Swiss guards at the Vatican are pretty imposing.

 

[josie_L]

Wrong. Dead wrong.

The Russian state has consistently, in modern times (which is axiomatically anything post 1965), persecuted Catholics in Russia to a level that is only exceeded by the horrors of the Nazis. Forced labor camps (essentially death camps). Executions for treason.

Glasnost reduced this - and the Roman rite is officially tolerated as a foreign religion since then - but Russia has no real sense of freedom of religion. And there is still distrust on the official level of all religions “foreign to Russia.”

The Catholic Church has never been doing that level of evil. The Russian Orthodox Church hasn’t openly endorsed the evils of the Soviets and later the Russian Republic, but neither has it repudiated the Russian State for them.

And the Russian Orthodox have ALWAYS had the protection of the Russian State from any would be persecutors from Catholic cultures. Even when the state was attacking the Russian Church, it was doing so to a far lower degree than the Russian state did versus EVERY other faith.

In other words, there is no (or very little) separation of church and state.

 

[michleg]

********The Russian Orthodox Church, which pays homage to the Tsar, whoever he may be, actually thinks of itself as “The New Rome.”

 

[Nine_Two]

Wrong. Dead wrong.

The Russian state has consistently, in modern times (which is axiomatically anything post 1965), persecuted Catholics in Russia to a level that is only exceeded by the horrors of the Nazis. Forced labor camps (essentially death camps). Executions for treason.

Which has nothing to do with the Russian Church. Orthodox were also persecuted in this way.

The Catholic Church has never been doing that level of evil. The Russian Orthodox Church hasn’t openly endorsed the evils of the Soviets and later the Russian Republic, but neither has it repudiated the Russian State for them.

The Catholic Church has never committed evil on the level of the Soviets - I’ll grant you this much. But why on earth would you set this as the bar? This would be like if I regularly beat someone half to death and defended myself saying that I have never committed evil on the level of Charles Manson. Life for Orthodox believers was quite harsh in areas taken over by Catholic states at times. The Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth in particular following the Union of Brest.

And the Russian Orthodox have ALWAYS had the protection of the Russian State from any would be persecutors from Catholic cultures. Even when the state was attacking the Russian Church, it was doing so to a far lower degree than the Russian state did versus EVERY other faith.

Really? So the Russian State was protecting the Russian Church when it persecuted it almost to complete extinction? I mean one of the ways I like to point out the evil of the Soviet regime is that the Russian Church was actually saved by the Nazis.

 

[Nine_Two]

Didn’t you hear? There is nothing but tolerance towards us!

At least that’s what I read at the start of this thread. If it is on the internet it must be true.

 

[twf]

Criticizing the leadership of the Russian Orthodox Church at various points in history does not necessarily equate to “Orthodox bashing”. Not to say that the latter doesn’t happen…but I find that the moment a Catholic (or especially a Ukrainian Greek Catholic) suggests that certain members of the Russian hierarchy are anything less than saintly, there are cries of “Orthodox bashing” from all corners. On the other hand, I, and all Catholics that I have come across, are quick to acknowledge that there have been and probably still are truly evil Catholic hierarchs throughout history…

 

[josie_L]

Criticizing the leadership of the Russian Orthodox Church at various points in history does not necessarily equate to “Orthodox bashing”. Not to say that the latter doesn’t happen…but I find that the moment a Catholic (or especially a Ukrainian Greek Catholic) suggests that certain members of the Russian hierarchy are anything less than saintly, there are cries of “Orthodox bashing” from all corners. On the other hand, I, and all Catholics that I have come across, are quick to acknowledge that there have been and probably still are truly evil Catholic hierarchs throughout history…

Not to mention that I’ve come off across some rather “bold” Orthodox posters on CAF who will state we are heretical and/or teach heresy, i.e., am I to infer that this is Catholic bashing?

 

[Nine_Two]

Criticizing the leadership of the Russian Orthodox Church at various points in history does not necessarily equate to “Orthodox bashing”. Not to say that the latter doesn’t happen…but I find that the moment a Catholic (or especially a Ukrainian Greek Catholic) suggests that certain members of the Russian hierarchy are anything less than saintly, there are cries of “Orthodox bashing” from all corners. On the other hand, I, and all Catholics that I have come across, are quick to acknowledge that there have been and probably still are truly evil Catholic hierarchs throughout history…

Claiming to be tolerant and then explaining that the ecclesiology is destructive isn’t criticizing the leadership at various points in history.

 

[dvdjs]

Which has nothing to do with the Russian Church. Orthodox were also persecuted in this way.

There were faithful Orthodox who refused any accommodation with the Soviets and were harshly persecuted, there were others who compromised and others who collaborated. And there is no question that the ROC collaborated with the Soviets, and before that with the Czars, and even now, with the Putin regime against Greek Catholics. Why on earth is Kirill singling them out, when all of the leaders of major Ukrainian churches - MP, KP, and UGCC - supported the Maidan reformers and opposed the incursion of Moscow.

I suppose if one bought into the idea of supererogatory merits one might make a case that the sufferings of the persecuted ROs somehow absolves the others of their own egregious offenses. It would be nice to hear someone explicitly connect those dots. In any case, the MP really needs to face up to history and stop the ridiculous scapegoating of Greek Catholics. It is not extreme nationalism to hold that Ukraine is not Russia. It is not Russophobia to oppose Moscow’s intervention in Ukraine. And for Greek Catholics, who understand the precariousness of their freedom of religion under Moscow, it is neither extreme nationalism of Russophobia to be particularly vigilant against Moscow’s pretensions.

 

[dvdjs]

Raising the specter of Russophobia and such is a naughty passive-aggressive trick.
It is like calling that anyone who has moral objections to homosexual relations to be a homophobe or claiming that expression of their objections amounts to queer-bashing.

 

[KyivAndrew]

There were faithful Orthodox who refused any accommodation with the Soviets and were harshly persecuted, there were others who compromised and others who collaborated. And there is no question that the ROC collaborated with the Soviets, and before that with the Czars, and even now, with the Putin regime against Greek Catholics. Why on earth is Kirill singling them out, when all of the leaders of major Ukrainian churches - MP, KP, and UGCC - supported the Maidan reformers and opposed the incursion of Moscow.

I suppose if one bought into the idea of supererogatory merits one might make a case that the sufferings of the persecuted ROs somehow absolves the others of their own egregious offenses. It would be nice to hear someone explicitly connect those dots. In any case, the MP really needs to face up to history and stop the ridiculous scapegoating of Greek Catholics. It is not extreme nationalism to hold that Ukraine is not Russia. It is not Russophobia to oppose Moscow’s intervention in Ukraine. And for Greek Catholics, who understand the precariousness of their freedom of religion under Moscow, it is neither extreme nationalism of Russophobia to be particularly vigilant against Moscow’s pretensions.

 

[josie_L]

Raising the specter of Russophobia and such is a naughty passive-aggressive trick.
It is like calling that anyone who has moral objections to homosexual relations to be a homophobe or claiming that expression of their objections amounts to queer-bashing.

I have said this myself, being that I was called a Russophobe.

 

[Eric_Prine]

From a Catholic viewpoint, can the Patriarch of Moscow call himself a Patriarch? Also, does this title mean he considers himself on par with the Patriarch of Constantinople, and not under him? Was this a title that Constantinople gave them or did Russia themselves declare this title?

 

[Nine_Two]

From a Catholic viewpoint, can the Patriarch of Moscow call himself a Patriarch? Also, does this title mean he considers himself on par with the Patriarch of Constantinople, and not under him? Was this a title that Constantinople gave them or did Russia themselves declare this title?

I won’t speak for the Catholic viewpoint but the Patriarchy title was granted by Constantinople. Whether it makes him equal or not depends on what you mean by equal. The heads of all autocephalous Churches are equal, whether or not they have the title “Patriarch”, but there is still an order of precedence (which only really comes into effect if there is a service with multiple patriarchs). Russia is 5, Constantinople is 1.