Russian Orthodox Church pulls out of Pan-Orthodox Council

[Randy_Carson]

Russian Orthodox Church pulls out of Pan-Orthodox Council
christiantoday.com/article/russian.orthodox.church.pulls.out.of.pan.orthodox.council/88291.htm

The crisis-hit Pan-Orthodox Council due to start in Crete on Saturday has been dealt a mortal blow by the withdrawal of the Russian Orthodox Church.

The council was designed to bring together the 14 ‘autocephalous’ or self-governing Eastern Orthodox Churches to iron out historical issues and address key theological and social questions. However, a succession of withdrawals put the standing of the council in doubt and now the defection of the ROC – the fifth Church to pull out, as well as the largest and most influential of all the Orthodox Churches – means the council can no longer claim to be authoritative.

In its official statement, the ROC refers to the withdrawal of the four Churches – Antioch, Georgia, Serbia and Bulgaria and says: “In this situation, the necessary ground for convening a Holy and Great Council… is obviously absent.”

It says: “The only possible decision in this case is to continue the preparation of the Holy and Great Council with the subsequent achievement of pan-Orthodox consent to its convocation at a different date.”

If the proposed council goes ahead anyway, the statement says, the ROC will not attend.

However, the chairman of the department of the external church relations, Metropolitan Hilarion, told the RT news service: “I do not see the current situation as catastrophic. I believe it is one of the stages of preparation for the Pan-Orthodox Council. It’s not a fault that this preparation was as smooth as we wanted it to be. And we do not believe that the whole idea of the council should be abandoned. We simply believe that it should be better prepared.”

He said: "There are many problems among various Orthodox Churches… These disagreements might seem small but, for historical churches, these are important issues.

“One Church after another declares that it is not participating, which means there will be no consensus, which means it is no longer a Pan-Orthodox Council. And we believe that the only way out of this difficult situation is to postpone the council,” Hilarion said.

 

[Rohzek]

Except the EP is declaring that by virtue of the signatures in January, the council will still be Pan-Orthodox and binding upon even those not present. It’s a ridiculous stretch on the part of the EP. Additionally, as far as I am aware of, Antioch never signed the document that the EP points to in order to justify their binding claims for those not present. And many others signed with conditions.

Honestly, the most controversial document is the one concerning relations with other Christian communions. The Church of Greece, which will attend, has decided to propose various amendations. Hopefully the get them. Unanimous consensus is needed for any decisions to be made at this council, although the lack of Antioch, Moscow, Bulgaria, and Georgia poses problems to this. Those four combined make up over half of the Orthodox world, who will not be present at the council.

For the Church of Greece’s stuff regarding their proposed amendments, see the statement of Metropolitan Hierotheos here:

pravoslavie.ru/english/94354.htm

 

[twf]

Except the EP is declaring that by virtue of the signatures in January, the council will still be Pan-Orthodox and binding upon even those not present. It’s a ridiculous stretch on the part of the EP. Additionally, as far as I am aware of, Antioch never signed the document that the EP points to in order to justify their binding claims for those not present. And many others signed with conditions.

Honestly, the most controversial document is the one concerning relations with other Christian communions. The Church of Greece, which will attend, has decided to propose various amendations. Hopefully the get them. Unanimous consensus is needed for any decisions to be made at this council, although the lack of Antioch, Moscow, Bulgaria, and Georgia poses problems to this. Those four combined make up over half of the Orthodox world, who will not be present at the council.

For the Church of Greece’s stuff regarding their proposed amendments, see the statement of Metropolitan Hierotheos here:

pravoslavie.ru/english/94354.htm

His Grace has a very unnuanced view of Latin theology, and as with many Orthodox writers seems to conflate Protestant distortions and authentic Catholic theology in places. He doesn’t describe my Catholic faith at any rate.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Pan-Orthodox Meltdown Ahead of Great Council?

NEWS ANALYSIS: Denying Catholics status as “Church” is only one point of controversy for the foundering pan-Orthodox Council.

Read more: ncregister.com/daily-news/pan-orthodox-meltdown-ahead-of-great-council/#ixzz4BrA7txDY

 

[Rohzek]

Pan-Orthodox Meltdown Ahead of Great Council?

NEWS ANALYSIS: Denying Catholics status as “Church” is only one point of controversy for the foundering pan-Orthodox Council.

Read more: ncregister.com/daily-news/pan-orthodox-meltdown-ahead-of-great-council/#ixzz4BrA7txDY

People read too much into the tiff between Moscow and Constantinople. Their only conflicts are with regards to some of the recognized churches in Eastern Europe and the recognition of the OCA. While I don’t like the fact that Kirill is so cozy with Putin, his understanding of Canon 28 on the EP’s authority is much more down to earth than the EP’s understanding. Moscow doesn’t want to take the title of “first among equals” for himself. It merely wants to resolve some of the jurisdictional issues and stress the limitations of power that the EP has.

 

[Rohzek]

His Grace has a very unnuanced view of Latin theology, and as with many Orthodox writers seems to conflate Protestant distortions and authentic Catholic theology in places. He doesn’t describe my Catholic faith at any rate.

Those a very standard views in general within Orthodoxy. Scholasticism is heavily looked down on. And Augustine’s influence, although heavily curtailed within Catholicism today, has historically been large in the Latin West, specifically his views on predestination.

 

[Emperor_Markus]

Very disappointing news.

I wonder what harm this will cause the Orthodox.

I am ultimately praying for the reunification, however. I want to see the Orthodox reunited with the Catholic Church.

 

[Rohzek]

Very disappointing news.

I wonder what harm this will cause the Orthodox.

I am ultimately praying for the reunification, however. I want to see the Orthodox reunited with the Catholic Church.

Refusal to appear at a council or simple tiffs over jurisdiction hardly constitutes a lack of unity. There is a clear unity of faith.

EO won’t reunify with the CC. It would have to be the other way around.

Also, latest statement from the Patriarch of Moscow to the council in Crete: pravoslavie.ru/english/94385.htm

The Russian Orthodox Church has always proceeded from the conviction that the voice of any Local Church, be it large or small, old or new, should not be neglected. The absence of the Church of Antioch’s consent to convene the Council means that we have not reached pan-Orthodox consensus. We cannot ignore the voices of the Georgian, Serbian and Bulgarian Churches either, who have spoken for a postponement of the Council to a later date.

 

[thephilosopher6]

Those a very standard views in general within Orthodoxy. Scholasticism is heavily looked down on. And Augustine’s influence, although heavily curtailed within Catholicism today, has historically been large in the Latin West, specifically his views on predestination.

It is rather frustrating at times to see Eastern Orthodox accuse us of believing something we don’t actually teach though. For example, we don’t accept the full expression of Saint Augustine’s view of original sin. Only Calvinist do. Our views on original sin are indeed different from the eastern view. However, we do not impose our western theology on the eastern Churches so Eastern Catholics have the same view of original sin as Eastern Orthodox would.

 

[Rohzek]

It is rather frustrating at times to see Eastern Orthodox accuse us of believing something we don’t actually teach though. For example, we don’t accept the full expression of Saint Augustine’s view of original sin. Only Calvinist do. Our views on original sin are indeed different from the eastern view. However, we do not impose our western theology on the eastern Churches so Eastern Catholics have the same view of original sin as Eastern Orthodox would.

I think this is a valid criticism and I understand your frustration. Timothy Ware, an Orthodox scholar and bishop, has a more nuanced understanding of Catholic teaching and its history.

 

[Cavaradossi]

Very disappointing news.

I wonder what harm this will cause the Orthodox.

Probably very little. For the contents of the documents which were supposed to be approved at this council, the hype surrounding it has been truly spectacular

 

[FollowChrist34]

Russian Orthodox Church pulls out of Pan-Orthodox Council
christiantoday.com/article/russian.orthodox.church.pulls.out.of.pan.orthodox.council/88291.htm

The crisis-hit Pan-Orthodox Council due to start in Crete on Saturday has been dealt a mortal blow by the withdrawal of the Russian Orthodox Church.

The council was designed to bring together the 14 ‘autocephalous’ or self-governing Eastern Orthodox Churches to iron out historical issues and address key theological and social questions. However, a succession of withdrawals put the standing of the council in doubt and now the defection of the ROC – the fifth Church to pull out, as well as the largest and most influential of all the Orthodox Churches – means the council can no longer claim to be authoritative.

In its official statement, the ROC refers to the withdrawal of the four Churches – Antioch, Georgia, Serbia and Bulgaria and says: “In this situation, the necessary ground for convening a Holy and Great Council… is obviously absent.”

It says: “The only possible decision in this case is to continue the preparation of the Holy and Great Council with the subsequent achievement of pan-Orthodox consent to its convocation at a different date.”

If the proposed council goes ahead anyway, the statement says, the ROC will not attend.

However, the chairman of the department of the external church relations, Metropolitan Hilarion, told the RT news service: “I do not see the current situation as catastrophic. I believe it is one of the stages of preparation for the Pan-Orthodox Council. It’s not a fault that this preparation was as smooth as we wanted it to be. And we do not believe that the whole idea of the council should be abandoned. We simply believe that it should be better prepared.”

He said: "There are many problems among various Orthodox Churches… These disagreements might seem small but, for historical churches, these are important issues.

“One Church after another declares that it is not participating, which means there will be no consensus, which means it is no longer a Pan-Orthodox Council. And we believe that the only way out of this difficult situation is to postpone the council,” Hilarion said.

I am quite under-impressed by this whole imploding Pan-Orthodox Council, though I also understand there is often room for legitimate disagreement within a faith. Besides, the point of the Council is not to impress me. But to be honest, it does kind of shake my positive view of the Orthodox Church a little bit. Again, not that they care about that. That has been made abundantly clear to me.

 

[prodromos]

I’m curious as to what interest Randy has in this matter. As far as I am aware he hasn’t shown any interest in becoming Orthodox.

 

[Dmitri77]

I am quite under-impressed by this whole imploding Pan-Orthodox Council, though I also understand there is often room for legitimate disagreement within a faith. Besides, the point of the Council is not to impress me. But to be honest, it does kind of shake my positive view of the Orthodox Church a little bit. Again, not that they care about that. That has been made abundantly clear to me.

One thing is for certain. If you need an emperor telling you what to do Orthodoxy is not for you. I mean honestly this is a council without a serious purpose. Another thing that history has shown when there is a serious threat to the faith the Church comes together to deal with it. Right now there is no threat.

 

[Randy_Carson]

 

[commenter]

One thing is for certain. If you need an emperor telling you what to do Orthodoxy is not for you. I mean honestly this is a council without a serious purpose. Another thing that history has shown when there is a serious threat to the faith the Church comes together to deal with it. Right now there is no threat.

No threat?
A brutal secular culture is rapidly advancing in most countries, increasingly backed by the government and media. In areas like abortion, SSM, and a whole host of moral issues it not only entices Christians, and non Christians alike, but more and more it imposes its will, with expressed hostility towards Christianity.

Secularism is the main “spiritual formation” for most of the young, including young Orthodox, non Orthodox Christians, and non Christians. Religious freedom, once taken for granted by churches, is very much under attack. Secularism not only impacts on non believers, but is so pervasive in many countries, its principles are taken for granted by church members. Many secularists are calling on restricting the ability of churches to evangelize or teach religion.

If Orthodox Christians see “no threat” in 2016, that is a much bigger problem than weak attendance at this council. I wonder what they **would **consider a “threat”.

 

[prodromos]

No threat?
A brutal secular culture is rapidly advancing in most countries, increasingly backed by the government and media. In areas like abortion, SSM, and a whole host of moral issues it not only entices Christians, and non Christians alike, but more and more it imposes its will, with expressed hostility towards Christianity.

Secularism is the main “spiritual formation” for most of the young, including young Orthodox, non Orthodox Christians, and non Christians. Religious freedom, once taken for granted by churches, is very much under attack. Secularism not only impacts on non believers, but is so pervasive in many countries, its principles are taken for granted by church members. Many secularists are calling on restricting the ability of churches to evangelize or teach religion.

If Orthodox Christians see “no threat” in 2016, that is a much bigger problem than weak attendance at this council. I wonder what they **would **consider a “threat”.

I don’t recall us ever holding a council to discuss the threat of Communism when the Bolsheviks were murdering our priests and bishops. Nor was there a council held to discuss the persecution of Christians under pagan Rome.

 

[Dmitri77]

No threat?
A brutal secular culture is rapidly advancing in most countries, increasingly backed by the government and media. In areas like abortion, SSM, and a whole host of moral issues it not only entices Christians, and non Christians alike, but more and more it imposes its will, with expressed hostility towards Christianity.

Secularism is the main “spiritual formation” for most of the young, including young Orthodox, non Orthodox Christians, and non Christians. Religious freedom, once taken for granted by churches, is very much under attack. Secularism not only impacts on non believers, but is so pervasive in many countries, its principles are taken for granted by church members. Many secularists are calling on restricting the ability of churches to evangelize or teach religion.

If Orthodox Christians see “no threat” in 2016, that is a much bigger problem than weak attendance at this council. I wonder what they **would **consider a “threat”.

How would a council address that threat? What doctrinal definitions are being challenged?

 

[commenter]

How would a council address that threat? What doctrinal definitions are being challenged?

Doctrines under challenge:
“Life is sacred, from conception until natural death”
“Marriage is between one man and one woman”.
And etc. There is soon coming lots of etc.

What is going on in Western countries now is not the familiar practice of some individuals drifting away from “The Good”, which has gone on for centuries. Good and Evil are, in just one generation, being redefined, at least for the younger generation - including Orthodox and non-Orthodox Christians. It’s not like a Stalin who says we will crush Christianity, it’s the Media telling young Orthodox, and Catholics, and Protestants, that is Christian to accept gay marriage, and unChristian to oppose abortion. I would guess some young Orthodox Christians are buying into this, though not as many as people in general pop.

How would a council address that? Well they need to meet, pray, and discern a response to this new challenge, which they have not seen before on this scale. Do they have some other way of responding besides a council? What?
If they say we don’t know how to respond to this new threat, but we will do the best we can, I can understand that. Christians need to cooperate.

If they say “what threat?”…

 

[FollowChrist34]

One thing is for certain. If you need an emperor telling you what to do Orthodoxy is not for you. I mean honestly this is a council without a serious purpose. Another thing that history has shown when there is a serious threat to the faith the Church comes together to deal with it. Right now there is no threat.

Thanks, I’ll pass on the emperor and/or Putin.