Russian Orthodox Church

[grandfather]

It is because of how his life ended. By all accounts, he and his family suffered their arrest and execution by the communists in a pious and Christian manner, and so they were canonized as passion-bearers, a rather unique type of Russian saint. Considering that Emperor Constantine, Empress Theodora, and Emperor Justinian are all saints, I’m not too bothered by it.

So it was a kind of death bed conversion? He got religion when the chips were down and his goose was cooked.

Constantine was no saint. He is not considered a saint and never was. He was never even baptized. Theodora and Justinian, Byzantine rulers, were not saints either, by any stretch of the imagination. I don’t think the Byzantine Church thinks so and the Catholics certainly do not. If Czar Nicholas is in that class, claims of his sanctity are pretty thin.

I don’t know how Orthodox go about saint making. My comment was to the irony of historical facts. They despise the slav who is largely responsible for toppling the tyranny of the Communists who are the enemies of God and man, and oppressed them cruelly, because he bore the title pope, while they claim Czar Nicholas holy and revered. This czar’s rule was anything but holy or wise and it opened the door, set the stage for the darkness that began in Russia in 1917 and crushed the slavic people. It is totally senseless and delusional.

It was the spiritual force of Catholicism, the Catholic Church and the Catholic slavic pope JPII that brought down the Soviets, while the Russian Orthodox patriach sat helpless and afterward refused to even meet with him.

It reminds me of Charles DeGaulle entering Paris as the triumphant general after the Americans and British liberated the French and the French looking down at Americans.

 

[grandfather]

It wasn’t that the Orthodox priests collaborated with the Communists so much as that the Communists infiltrated the Orthodox Church - and this happened in all Communist countries, of all faiths.

 

[grandfather]

There are numerous inquisitions. Honestly, any time the Church, Eastern or Western become too enmeshed in the Secular mechanization of the state suffering is the result.

Do you really claim to know anything about the inquisitions?

 

[Mickey]

Constantine was no saint. He is not considered a saint and never was.

Wrong. He is recognized and venerated as a saint in the Eastern Catholic and Orthodox Churches.

 

[Mickey]

Theodora and Justinian, Byzantine rulers, were not saints either, by any stretch of the imagination.

Wrong again. Empress St Theodora is on the Byzantine Catholic calendar and venerated as a saint.

 

[holmj2674]

Do you really claim to know anything about the inquisitions?

Actually, I know quite a bit about the inquisitions. I have read the revisionist histories that try to make the Church look like the Gestapo and I have read the Church histories that make them look like Saints and I have my own opinion and probably history fall somewhere in between. Before you claim to know what I do and don’t know you might want to ask my profession and educational background.
This thread was not intended to judge the merits of the Russian Orthodox Church during the times of the Tsar or under Communism. Communist infiltration of the Church is well known, and the same still happens in other Communist countries such as China, while during the waning years of the Russian Empire a blossoming of spirituality rarely seen was witnessed among the likes of St. Seraphim of Sarov and the anonymous author of the “Way of the Pilgrim,” and other Russain monastics and Hesychasts. The 18th and 19th century were a different time altogether, and the Catholic Church itself is not completely innocent of being involved in the politics of so called “Enlightened” Monarchs (or Despots if you prefer). I believe much of the secularization of Europe is a reaction to the Churches use of temporal, political power to influence secular governments and vice versa. That is why the founding fathers of the United States drew a clear line between Church and State and the secularization and moral erosion of Europe is taking longer over here than over there, although it does seem inevitable.
My concern was for Orthodoxy in general, which I find very attractive as a spirituality, but is marred in my opinion by instances like these where the Church and the State still seem tied very much together with 19th century style nationalism and ethnic pride (Jingoism) that led to Imperialism, Two World Wars, and the collapse into post-modern relativism.

 

[grandfather]

Wrong again. Empress St Theodora is on the Byzantine Catholic calendar and venerated as a saint.

Yes I have seen her icon. Catholics do not recognize Constantine, Justinian, Theodora or Czar Nicholas as saints. There are many holy men and women of the east whose grace filled lives witness great virtue and holiness. These four political figures fall far short of that holy witness.

There is no evidence of virtue or sanctity that I know of, although I have not studied their biographies in great detail, that would justify the veneration of these individuals as saints. By and large the historical record indicates the opposite is true. They did not live godly lives in terms of what we recognize as holiness. May God have mercy on their souls.

 

[Cavaradossi]

Yes I have seen her icon. Catholics do not recognize Constantine, Justinian, Theodora or Czar Nicholas as saints. There are many holy men and women of the east whose grace filled lives witness great virtue and holiness. These four political figures fall far short of that holy witness.

There is no evidence of virtue or sanctity that I know of, although I have not studied their biographies in great detail, that would justify the veneration of these individuals as saints. By and large the historical record indicates the opposite is true. They did not live godly lives in terms of what we recognize as holiness. May God have mercy on their souls.

Worry about your soul first.

 

[Mickey]

Catholics do not recognize Constantine, Justinian, Theodora or Czar Nicholas as saints.

Wrong.

I do not know about St Justinian or Czar St Nicholas…but St Theodora and St Constantine are venerated as saints in some of the Eastern Catholic Churches…and last time I heard…the Eastern Catholics were still part of the Catholic Church.

 

[Nine_Two]

Nine_Two;9037204:

Are you saying that Catholic priests betrayed confessions?

In areas like Poland, I would be quite surprised if similar infiltration didn’t happen.

Can you explain why Catholic properties were siezed by the Communists and given to Orthodox if there was no collusion between the Orthodox and Communists?

Same reason Orthodox Churches were seized and given to Catholics in Catholic majority countries, because the Communists believed it would be easier to control one church, rather than multiple.

It was much easier to figure out which Catholic priests were trustworthy. They were found in gulags and cemetaries.

Yes, Orthodox priests were plentiful in those places as well. So what?

 

[grandfather]

Justinian:

"The Catholic cannot applaud the great emperor’s ecclesiastical polity, though in this, too, we recognize the statesman’s effort to promote peace and union within the empire. It was a matter of course that this union was to be that of the “most holy Catholic and Apostolic Church of God” (5 c., De s. tr., I, 1). The Corpus Juris is full of laws against paganism (apostasy was punished by death, 10 c., “De pag.”, I, 11), Jews, Samaritans (who began a dangerous revolt in 529), Manichæans, and other heretics. The decrees of the four general councils were incorporated in the civil law. There was no toleration of dissent. True to the ideal of Constantinople, the emperor conceived himself as “priest and king”, supreme head on earth in matters ecclesiastical as well as in the State. He filled his codex with canon law and assumed the most outspoken Erastianism as the law of the empire. And all through his reign he fell foul of the authority of the Church by his attempts to conciliate the Monophysites. Ever since Chalcedon (451) these heretics filled Syria and Egypt, and were a constant source of disunion and trouble to the empire. Justinian was one of the many emperors who tried to reconcile them by concessions. His wife Theodora was a secret Monophysite; influenced by her, the emperor, while maintaining Chalcedon, tried to satisfy the heretics by various compromises. First came the Theopaschite question. Peter Fullo of Antioch had introduced into the Trisagion the clause: “Who didst suffer for us”. Pope Hormisdas (514-23) refused to admit it, as savoring of Monophysitism. But Justinian approved it and promoted a Monophysite, Anthimus I (536), to the See of Constantinople. Then followed the great quarrel of the Three Chapters, the lamentable attitude of Pope Vigilius (540-55), and the Second Council of Constantinople (553). In all thus story Justinian appears as a persecutor of the Church, and takes his place, unhappily, among the semi-Monophysite tyrants who caused the long series of quarrels and schisms that were the after-effect of Monophysitism. His ecclesiastical tyranny is the one regrettable side of the character of so great a man. "

 

[grandfather]

Theodora: History says she was a heretic.

"Theodora was the wife of Justinian I who was crowned Emperor of the Byzantine Empire in 527 AD. As his wife, she ruled by his side, as his partner, and her intelligence helped to advance the Empire.

The exact place of her birth has not been agreed upon. While some historians say she was born on the island of Crete off the coast of Greece, others speculate that she might have been born in Syria. Whichever the case, she was brought up as the daughter of a bear trainer who worked at the Hippodrome (a huge stadium-like circus), in Constantinople. She worked there as a mime, and later as a full time actress. At the time, acting was not a highly esteemed occupation especially for women, so the term ‘actress’ was considered synonymous with the term ‘prostitute’. While on stage she was remembered for her daring entertainment skills, off stage however, she lived a normal youthful life and was most remembered for her wild parties.

At the age of 16, she traveled to northern Africa as the companion of an official. She stayed there for 4 years before returning to Constantinople. She stopped by Alexandria, the capital of Egypt and here she adopted Monophysitism. This was a form of Christianity that believed that Jesus Christ was wholly divine and not both human and divine as was the orthodox Christian belief. Monophysites were thus not liked by orthodox Christians since their teachings did not conform to those of the orthodox church. On conversion to Monophysitism, she gave up her former lifestyle, and upon reaching Constantinople in 522, settled down as a wool spinner in a house near the palace of the Emperor. It was while in this humble lifestyle, at the age of 20, that she drew the attention of Justinian, then a government official.

Back to “Restoration of the Roman Empire in the East” Chronology

Theodora was not only beautiful, but intelligent, witty and amusing, which is perhaps why she won Justinian’s love so much that he appealed against an old Roman law that forbade officials from marrying actresses in order to marry her. Justinian and Theodora were married in 525. In 527, Justin, the emperor of Byzantium, and Justinian’s father died. The couple assumed control of the Empire and were crowned Emperor and Empress on 4th April of that same year. They ruled unofficially as joint monarchs with Justinian allowing Theodora to share his throne and take active part in decision making.

Perhaps the most significant event during Empress Theodora’s rule was the Nika revolt in which she proved herself a worthy and able leader. During this event, two rival political groups started a riot at the Hippodrome. They set many public buildings on fire and proclaimed a new emperor. Justinian and his officials, unable to control the crowd prepared to flee, but Theodora spoke up and gave a moving speech about the greater significance of the life of someone who died as a ruler, over that of someone who lived but was nothing. Her determined speech convinced Justinian and his officials and they attacked the Hippodrome, killing over 30,000 rebels and emerging victorious. Historians agree that it was Theodora’s courage and determination that saved Justinian’s empire.

Throughout the rest of her life, Theodora and Justinian transformed the city of Constantinople, building it into a city that for many centuries was known as one of the most wonderful cities in the world. They built aqueducts, bridges, and more than 25 churches, the most significant of these being the Hagia Sophia - ‘Church of Holy Wisdom’. To women, Theodora may well be considered a noble pioneer of the women’s liberation movement. She passed on laws prohibiting forced prostitution and established homes for prostitutes, passed rights that granted women more rights in divorce cases, instituted the death penalty for rape and established laws allowing women to own and inherit property. She also provided safe shelter for Monophysite leaders who faced opposition from the majority orthodox Christians, even though her husband Justinian was an orthodox Christian.

Empress Theodora died on 28th June, 548. Her body was buried in the Church of the Holy Apostle, one of the splendid churches that she and Justinian had built in Constantinople. Beautiful mosaics in Empress Theodora’s remembrance exist to this day at the Church of San Vitale at Ravenna in Northern Italy. Even after her death, her spirit lived on, and in this way she was able to have influence on the Empire. Through what she had began, Justinian was able to bring harmony between the Monophysites and the Orthodox Christians, and the status of women in the Byzantine Empire was elevated high above that of the women in the Middle East and Europe."

 

[grandfather]

Constantine:

He is on the calendar, May 21. Astonishing.

 

[jakasaki]

Wrong. He is recognized and venerated as a saint in the Eastern Catholic and Orthodox Churches.

For poster: Granfather

St. Constantine the Great

Feastday: May 21

Junior Emperor and emperor called the “Thirteenth Apostle” in the East. The son of Constantius I Chlorus, junior emperor and St. Helena, Constantine was raised on the court of co-Emperor Diocletian.

When his father died in 306, Constantine was declared junior emperor of York, England, by the local legions and earned a place as a ruler of the Empire by defeating of his main rivals at the battle of the Milvian Bridge in 312.

According to legend, he adopted the insignia of Christ, the chi-rho, and placed it upon his labarum - the military standards that held the banners his armies carried into battle to vanquish their pagan enemies. His purple banners were inscribed with the Latin for “In this sign conquer.”

Constantine then shared rule of the Empire with Licinius Licinianus, exerting his considerable influence upon his colleague to secure the declaration of Christianity to be a free religion. When, however, Licinius and Constantine launched a persecution of the Christians, Constantine marched to the East and routed his opponent at the battle of Adrianople.

Constantine was the most dominating figure of his lifetime, towering over his contemporaries, including Pope Sylvester I. He presided over the Council of Nicaea, gave extensive grants of land and property to the Church, founded the Christian city of Constantinople to serve as his new capital, and undertook a long-sighted program of Christianization for the whole of the Roman Empire.

he was baptized a Christian only on his deathbed, Constantine nevertheless was a genuinely important figure in Christian history and was revered as a saint, especially in the Eastern Church.

catholic.org/saints/saint.php?saint_id=2731

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Prayer request helpful and needed;

I pray for the Russian Orthodox Church make concrete “communication” relations with the Pope on a continual basis as building up relations to the West, while the window of opportunity is still open.

Now that Putin is back, the future of that window to the West for the Orthodox Church hangs in the balance once again.

 

[grandfather]

Actually, I know quite a bit about the inquisitions. I have read the revisionist histories that try to make the Church look like the Gestapo and I have read the Church histories that make them look like Saints and I have my own opinion and probably history fall somewhere in between. Before you claim to know what I do and don’t know you might want to ask my profession and educational background.

History is indeed murky. The historical truth about the inquisitions does fall somewhere in between the apologists and detractors, but far from the middle.

I believe much of the secularization of Europe is a reaction to the Churches use of temporal, political power to influence secular governments and vice versa. That is why the founding fathers of the United States drew a clear line between Church and State and the secularization and moral erosion of Europe is taking longer over here than over there, although it does seem inevitable.

As the Age of Antiquity closed and the Medieval Age opened Saint Augustine made the distinction between the jurisdictions of the civil and Church governments. The founders of the United States mainly concerned themselves with devising a structure or a new model for a civil state. Their concept of religious freedom did not result from a concern over past abuses or misuse of religious authority attempting to influence the civil state. They wanted to find a way to make religious controversies go away, to find a peaceful coexistence among the emerging religious factions and denominations. Their solution was to declare every man for himself, religious anarchy called freedom.

They left a vacuum that was filled by the civil authority that stepped in to settle inevitable controversies and quesations of morals, which according to Augustine is in the jurisdiction of the Church. The result here in the U.S. is 52,000,000 dead babies and we can no longer figure out that men marry women, moral collapse under the auspices of freedom.

My concern was for Orthodoxy in general, which I find very attractive as a spirituality, but is marred in my opinion by instances like these where the Church and the State still seem tied very much together with 19th century style nationalism and ethnic pride (Jingoism) that led to Imperialism, Two World Wars, and the collapse into post-modern relativism.

The extraordinary and supernatural beauty of Orthodox liturgies, prayers and all expressions of faith are a testimony that bears witness to a connection to divinity. The source of something so beautiful can only attributed to communion with heaven.

The scandals of Orthodoxy or Catholicism for that matter do not alter the truth of this reality. What they do say is that churchmen have lost the connection to the grace that their predecessors who created and handed on our holy heritage once knew. We need a reconnection. That is why the previous pope called for a new evangelization. We would not need one if something had not gotten off track.

Attributing Imperialism, the world wars and our current cultural evils solely to a connection between Church and State is a stretch, but maybe you can make a case for it. In my opinion the collapse into relativism, the rise of power of an anti-God, anti-religious state and society is caused by Christendom divided into factions, direct disobedience to Christ’s command for unity. It took centuries to fall so far, but it is the inevitable result of fracture.

We all have our cause and effect speculations attempting to explain what went wrong. But if mine is right the solution is simple. Unity will lead to recovery. Overcoming the division is not so simple. Knowing the cure and accomplishing it are very different. It will take God breaking many stony hearts.

 

[Cavaradossi]

Justinian:

"The Catholic cannot applaud the great emperor’s ecclesiastical polity, though in this, too, we recognize the statesman’s effort to promote peace and union within the empire. It was a matter of course that this union was to be that of the “most holy Catholic and Apostolic Church of God” (5 c., De s. tr., I, 1). The Corpus Juris is full of laws against paganism (apostasy was punished by death, 10 c., “De pag.”, I, 11), Jews, Samaritans (who began a dangerous revolt in 529), Manichæans, and other heretics. The decrees of the four general councils were incorporated in the civil law. There was no toleration of dissent. True to the ideal of Constantinople, the emperor conceived himself as “priest and king”, supreme head on earth in matters ecclesiastical as well as in the State. He filled his codex with canon law and assumed the most outspoken Erastianism as the law of the empire. And all through his reign he fell foul of the authority of the Church by his attempts to conciliate the Monophysites. Ever since Chalcedon (451) these heretics filled Syria and Egypt, and were a constant source of disunion and trouble to the empire. Justinian was one of the many emperors who tried to reconcile them by concessions. His wife Theodora was a secret Monophysite; influenced by her, the emperor, while maintaining Chalcedon, tried to satisfy the heretics by various compromises. First came the Theopaschite question. Peter Fullo of Antioch had introduced into the Trisagion the clause: “Who didst suffer for us”. Pope Hormisdas (514-23) refused to admit it, as savoring of Monophysitism. But Justinian approved it and promoted a Monophysite, Anthimus I (536), to the See of Constantinople. Then followed the great quarrel of the Three Chapters, the lamentable attitude of Pope Vigilius (540-55), and the Second Council of Constantinople (553). In all thus story Justinian appears as a persecutor of the Church, and takes his place, unhappily, among the semi-Monophysite tyrants who caused the long series of quarrels and schisms that were the after-effect of Monophysitism. His ecclesiastical tyranny is the one regrettable side of the character of so great a man. "

So do Catholics reject the Second Council of Constantinople for being “semi-monophysite” or do they save that slur only for Justinian?

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

So do Catholics reject the Second Council of Constantinople for being “semi-monophysite” or do they save that slur only for Justinian?

I thought the Council of Chalcedon 451 condemned Monophysitism? Ratified by Pope Leo I.

The Constantinople II council of 553, Condemned the writings of theologians as having been infested with Nestorianism; Theodore of Mopsuestia, Theodoret of Cyrrhus, and Ebas of Edessa. The Emperor Justinian I, wanted the Church to consider these Greek theologians Orthodox.

The council of Constantinople III of 680, Condemned Monothelism; Convened by Constantine IV and Ratified by Pope Leo II.

 

[grandfather]

In areas like Poland, I would be quite surprised if similar infiltration didn’t happen.

Again, my Polish friends personally prefer Orthodoxy for various reasons. They said the single reason they remain Catholic is the behavior of Orthodox clergy under the Soviets. If something similar happened in the Catholic Church it failed to make the news. History seems to indicate the Catholics rsisted and the Orthodox collaborated to one degree or another. I am really only aware of the history in Ukraine and Poland though and a little in Romania.

Same reason Orthodox Churches were seized and given to Catholics in Catholic majority countries, because the Communists believed it would be easier to control one church, rather than multiple.

If this happened that Catholics received Orthodox seized properties in Catholic majority countries I wonder why it is not in the news today that the Orthodox want to reclaim their property as we see Catholics demanding the churches back and the Orthodox unwilling to return them.

Yes, Orthodox priests were plentiful in those places as well. So what?

The holy Orthodox clergy who were imprisoned and murdered by the Communists were largely the ones who did not cooperate.

I saw Joseph Teralya when he came to give his testimony in the U.S. The scandal of Catholicism in this history is not found in the Communist countries. It is in the abandonment of Christians behind the iron curtain by the hierarchy in the non-Communist countries of Europe who failed to condemn it all and kissed up to the enemy.

The Orthodox hierachy in Ukraine were silent as Catholic bishops and priests were carted off and Catholic properties were seized. If this happened in a Catholic majority countries why is it not known?

 

[Nine_Two]

I haven’t seen either of these things on the news, so that doesn’t seem to be a very fair request. You’re using anecdotal evidence. The fact is what happened behind the Iron Curtain isn’t well known to anyone who hasn’t sought out the information.

You speak of these Poles, but I get the distinct feeling they were living within the USSR, rather than in Poland.

I will backtrack a little, the circumstances in the two countries were very different. The ROC had only just gotten freedom from the Tsars when the atheistic Communists began trying to wipe them out. I think the only reason it even managed to survive, by the grace of God, is because it had been released by the tsars so recently - and even that was providential, as the oberprocurator happened to be sick the day the bishops moved to strip his office of authority and his assistant lacked the will to stop them.