Russian Orthodox Patriarch

[grandfather]

Whom are you asking? We here don’t know. Those who know most probably don’t have internet connection.

I already heard a lot of terrible things about both Ossetians shooting Georgian priests, and Georgians shooting Ossetian priests. Not mentioning the lay people = just ordinary people. Regardless of whether some particular cases are real or fake, I’m more than sure that something of this kind takes place.

And on the contrary I’m sure that in each conflict of this kind dozens, if not hundred, of saints actually appears - althought most often we don’t know anything about them. As most often they are small silent saint martirs, with nobody to tell about them.

You may see even from this forum that even christian people very soon start to think not about individuals, not about souls, but about some theoretical “global bodies” such as countries acting, nationalities acting, some “bears”, “deers”, I don’t know… I don’t completely understand how we can combine this attitude with christianity. Jesus never sad “Romans want that”, or “Jews should do this”. Actually He always taought that there are individual people, who are quite often hiding behind some national or political “identifications”. But He always tried to bring them back to one-to-one stand before God, and before their conscience.

Let’s pray that the violence ends quickly, even if it is making saints. I believe you. God bless all of the people who are suffering in this situation.

 

[ralphinal]

Whom are you asking? We here don’t know. Those who know most probably don’t have internet connection.

I already heard a lot of terrible things about both Ossetians shooting Georgian priests, and Georgians shooting Ossetian priests. Not mentioning the lay people = just ordinary people. Regardless of whether some particular cases are real or fake, I’m more than sure that something of this kind takes place.

And on the contrary I’m sure that in each conflict of this kind dozens, if not hundred, of saints actually appears - althought most often we don’t know anything about them. As most often they are small silent saint martirs, with nobody to tell about them.

You may see even from this forum that even christian people very soon start to think not about individuals, not about souls, but about some theoretical “global bodies” such as countries acting, nationalities acting, some “bears”, “deers”, I don’t know… I don’t completely understand how we can combine this attitude with christianity. Jesus never sad “Romans want that”, or “Jews should do this”. Actually He always taought that there are individual people, who are quite often hiding behind some national or political “identifications”. But He always tried to bring them back to one-to-one stand before God, and before their conscience.

thanks for the reply. I do see what you are saying.

I have heard some non-Christains make the claim that Orthodox Churches are more biased against other groups because of their ethnic nature. IN the US that is not always visible. Is there more of this in other parts of the World?

 

[Khakhalin]

Frankly, I don’t know. What I see is that every nation tends to have it’s own church. People just feel good when the church is “national style”, although that’s perfectly contrary to the christian message.

Russians once rejected Greek Orthodoxy (up to accusation of heresy). Greeks sometimes tend to reject non-Greeks. Carpatho-Rusins don’t like Russian orthodoxy, Ukrainian church is separated into 2.5 different jurisdictions. About Georgians and Ossetians you know…

Even Armenian and Jakobite church, to my opinion, stayed separate from the world orthodoxy at least at half because they needed a national church, that wasn’t encouranged by Byzantine state of that times.

Any non-eastern examples? Poles have a very strong bind to catholicism, partly, I believe, also as a reaction to Russia, a a long-term enemy. At least for poles within Russia it always was partly a national identity. Luther separated from Rome partly because of a disire to have national language used. That’s a bit different story, but isn’t it strange that Rome didn’t even propose to celebrate a Mass in German?.. Wasn’t that partly a story about national heritage? I’m not sure, but it may be as well…

An extreme example of this attitude would probably be Judaism… But OK, I probably won’t continue - you may guess the possible development of this idea.

Eastern Orthodoxy was always much more flexible to local customs, as well as to translation to local languages. That was, from one hand, a huge facilitator for deployment into the world, but from the other hand we don’t have that all-penetrating rite that would help people to stick together when necessary. And when it comes to politics - you know - usually right works better then the Sermon on the Mount…

 

[ralphinal]

Frankly, I don’t know. What I see is that every nation tends to have it’s own church. People just feel good when the church is “national style”, although that’s perfectly contrary to the christian message.

Russians once rejected Greek Orthodoxy (up to accusation of heresy). Greeks sometimes tend to reject non-Greeks. Carpatho-Rusins don’t like Russian orthodoxy, Ukrainian church is separated into 2.5 different jurisdictions. About Georgians and Ossetians you know…

Even Armenian and Jakobite church, to my opinion, stayed separate from the world orthodoxy at least at half because they needed a national church, that wasn’t encouranged by Byzantine state of that times.

Any non-eastern examples? Poles have a very strong bind to catholicism, partly, I believe, also as a reaction to Russia, a a long-term enemy. At least for poles within Russia it always was partly a national identity. Luther separated from Rome partly because of a disire to have national language used. That’s a bit different story, but isn’t it strange that Rome didn’t even propose to celebrate a Mass in German?.. Wasn’t that partly a story about national heritage? I’m not sure, but it may be as well…

An extreme example of this attitude would probably be Judaism… But OK, I probably won’t continue - you may guess the possible development of this idea.

Eastern Orthodoxy was always much more flexible to local customs, as well as to translation to local languages. That was, from one hand, a huge facilitator for deployment into the world, but from the other hand we don’t have that all-penetrating rite that would help people to stick together when necessary. And when it comes to politics - you know - usually right works better then the Sermon on the Mount…

That is what I am getting at. As far as the West goes, there were major political issues in the splits that occured when the Protestants left. In some ways, nationalism, or something like it, was a major contributor.

Is there a way to fix it? Doesn’t it hurt Orthodoxy’s claim as the Universal Church when lines are quickly drawn along ethnic/national boundries and the faith is at best second?

 

[Peter_J]

Dumb but slightly related question.

What is more important to these Orthodox Churches: the national identity of the Church or the commonality that all Christians share? In a time of war, would ethinic divides fall along Church lines as well? If there was a “Georgian Orthodox Church” would they refuse to help any Russian Orthodox Refugees because they were RO?

Do you even have to ask? Roman Catholics and Eastern Orthodox both believe that the Church is Catholic , i.e. universal. (I would answer the same way if someone asked “Do American Catholics not consider Catholic illegal-immigrants to be ‘real Catholics’?”)

 

[Shoshana]

Let’s say there were a group of Canadians who no longer wanted to be part of Canada. They lived in a territory of Canada. For whatever reason they decided they wanted to be part of the United States and they took over their territory and rejected the Canadian government. Suppose the Canadian Army went there to take their Canadian territory back. Should the U.S. invade Canada to defend Canadian rebels who seized Canadian territory?

r.

Are you talking about Quebec? You can have 'em!

 

[ralphinal]

Do you even have to ask? Roman Catholics and Eastern Orthodox both believe that the Church is Catholic , i.e. universal. (I would answer the same way if someone asked “Do American Catholics not consider Catholic illegal-immigrants to be ‘real Catholics’?”)

And the answer would be “Yes. They are Catholic just like us.” If I ask any Orthodox Church members about other ethnic Churches, how many would say no, just because they are not the same ethnic group?

 

[wynd]

And the answer would be “Yes. They are Catholic just like us.” If I ask any Orthodox Church members about other ethnic Churches, how many would say no, just because they are not the same ethnic group?

Probably none.

 

[ralphinal]

Probably none.

Then why the tendency to violence along ethnic lines? Isn’t there a place in Jerusalem where the Greeks and Armenians cannot get along in the Church that they co-habitat with the RCC?

I think that a google search would show that there is more tension between these Churches than between the EO and Rome. What is more important, sharing the faith or sharing a language and history?

 

[wynd]

Then why the tendency to violence along ethnic lines?

Human nature? No Orthodox synod teaches that its expression of Orthodoxy is “better” than another.

 

[grandfather]

Human nature? No Orthodox synod teaches that its expression of Orthodoxy is “better” than another.

Those monls are a disgrace. They have a riot in a church and the Israeli papers think it is hysterical.

 

[Alexius]

Can we throw into the mix the unmentioned Ossetians professing Sunni Islam as their religion? They’re a minority, but a large one. That adds a new angle to the fight.

I hope that both the Georgian Orthodox bishops and the Orthodox bishops in Russia can find a way to work for peace. It seems that the politicians are so into their game of real-life Risk that they lost all concern for the innocent people who live where the bombs fall. This is getting very scary. Just think of the rather isolated events in the small region of Bosnia that brought on the first World War. All it took was nations picking sides and stockpiling their WMD’s. It is not too far off in this case and I pray that it doesn’t go that far.

While I still support Russia’s original move, I really hope the politicians will stop playing political poker (or Russian roulette) and start thinking about the casualties they have caused and continue to cause. How many people have to die over pride and international tug-o-war?

Prayers and petitions,
Alexius

 

[Peter_J]

Ralphinal,

And the answer would be “Yes. They are Catholic just like us.” If I ask any Orthodox Church members about other ethnic Churches, how many would say no, just because they are not the same ethnic group?

^^ I would call this an example of anti-Orthodox prejudice.

 

[Hesychios]

Let’s say there were a group of Canadians who no longer wanted to be part of Canada. They lived in a territory of Canada. For whatever reason they decided they wanted to be part of the United States and they took over their territory and rejected the Canadian government. Suppose the Canadian Army went there to take their Canadian territory back. Should the U.S. invade Canada to defend Canadian rebels who seized Canadian territory?

Why don’t you use the example of the USA and Mexico?

 

[ralphinal]

Ralphinal,

^^ I would call this an example of anti-Orthodox prejudice.

I would, too, if I said that it is the nature of the Orthodox to feel this way. I am trying to investigate if these Churches, by their national and or ethnic descriptions, feel that blood is thicker than theology.

 

[grandfather]

I would, too, if I said that it is the nature of the Orthodox to feel this way. I am trying to investigate if these Churches, by their national and or ethnic descriptions, feel that blood is thicker than theology.

I know several people who were Russian Orthodox and who live in a town where there is no RO church, but there is a Greek Orthodox church. They went there for awhile, but stopped, claiming that the Greeks were quite hostile to them. They became Catholic. I don’t know the details, but apparently there was some ethnic discrimination.

 

[ralphinal]

I know several people who were Russian Orthodox and who live in a town where there is no RO church, but there is a Greek Orthodox church. They went there for awhile, but stopped, claiming that the Greeks were quite hostile to them. They became Catholic. I don’t know the details, but apparently there was some ethnic discrimination.

That is what I am asking. I am not saying if this is part of the faith. I know good and well that it is not. I am asking if it is intrensically present in Churches that define themselves by location or ethnic make-up. If so, it would be a strike against universality.

 

[grandfather]

That is what I am asking. I am not saying if this is part of the faith. I know good and well that it is not. I am asking if it is intrensically present in Churches that define themselves by location or ethnic make-up. If so, it would be a strike against universality.

The Orthodox are not unique in suffering ethnic bias. It is part of human nature. It happens in Catholic Churches also, but maye not so much in the U.S. where there are many different groups mixed together. We are more used to this mixing.

I have a friend who is a priest in a rural town where the local Catholics resent the Hispanics who are very devout Catholics. The priest is very frustrated with this. I have a friend from Poland who attends a parish that has a lot of Poles and they resent the Croats who have moved here.