Sabbath

[NoelFitz]

I learned in school that the Third Commandment of God is Remeber you keep holy the Sabbath day. Yet St Paul seemed to imply keeping the Sabbath was optional.

Please let me have your views.

(For) one person considers one day more important than another, while another person considers all days alike. Let everyone be fully persuaded in his own mind (NAB, Rom 14:5).

 

[WholeHeart]

I thought that verse was referring to holidays.

As for the Sabbath, the underlying principle of taking rest is still valid and useful. The only semester during college that I avoided doing any homework on Saturdays was also the only semester that I got a 4.0… (Saturday instead of Sunday worked better for me.)

 

[Snerticus]

From what I understand, and I am by no means an expert, the Sabbath is from the Mosaic Law, which Christians today are not bound by.

The vast majority of Christians keep holy the Lord’s Day (Sunday), which replaces the Sabbath (Saturday).

This link to the Catechism of the Catholic Church may help you too:

usccb.org/catechism/text/pt3sect2chpt1art3.shtml

 

[rocketrob]

Paul is referring to ritual feasts and celebrations of the Mosaic Law, and how Jewish Christians should not be forced to abandon them while at the same time Gentile Christians should not be forced to observe them. He is not referring to the moral law handed on by God in the ten commandments. Even Jesus Himself said He did not come to destroy the moral law, but rather to fulfill it:

“Do not think that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets. I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. For amen I say unto you, till heaven and earth pass, one jot, or one tittle shall not pass of the law, till all be fulfilled.” (Matt 5:17-18)

rocketrob

 

[Robbinson]

The moral law (10 commandments) continues and this includes the Sabbath. However, our Sabbath rest is fulfilled in Christ (Hebrews) “today” (every day) - this includes the saturday Sabbath and every day we rest in him.

The church, in celebrating the resurrection of the Lord and the new creation - transferred “the solemnity” of the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday (the Lord’s Day) - but the “Sabbath”, per se, remains Saturday, albeit is fulfilled.

The Catechism teaches us that we continue to be subject to the moral law (10 commandments) - this is the “law of Christ” written in our hearts (as foretold in Jer 31:31-34). If we keep the “golden rule” (love God with all our heart, mind and strength and love our neighbor as ourself) we will be necessity be fulfilling the entire “law” (10 commandments).

Blessings,

Brian

 

[NoelFitz]

Brian

Thanks for ypur reply.

You wrote:

moral law (10 commandments) - this is the “law of Christ” written in our hearts (as foretold in Jer 31:31-34). If we keep the “golden rule” (love God with all our heart, mind and strength and love our neighbor as ourself) we will be necessity be fulfilling the entire “law” (10 commandments).

I had always considered that the ten commandments were given by God to Moses and that the Golden Rule (in its positive form) is that one should treat others as one would like to be treated.

 

[Bookcat]

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/apost_exhortations/documents/hf_ben-xvi_exh_20070222_sacramentum-caritatis_en.html#The_eucharistic_form_of_the_christian_life

 

[NoelFitz]

Rocketrob
You quote Jesus as saying

or one tittle shall not pass of the law.

Yet you claim Jesus was only referring to the moral law. This is not clear to me. If Jesus did not mean the whole law, as understood by the Jews of his time, he did not make this clear.

As I replied to Brian above the ten commandments are part of the Mosaic law, clearly given by God to Moses.

However I am discussing what Paul, not Jesus, meant.

However I agree with you to a certain extent, but I think your reply is an over-simplfication.

 

[NoelFitz]

Bookcat,

please explain your reply to me. I looked at the reference you gave. It is about the Eucharist and seems to have no bearing on the topic here.

 

[Bookcat]

Tis all about the Lord’s Day…which became the day for Christians…(instead of the Sabbath)…the day on which the third commandment is fulfilled…

Iuxta dominicam viventes – living in accordance with the Lord’s Day

1. From the beginning Christians were clearly conscious of this radical newness which the Eucharist brings to human life. The faithful immediately perceived the profound influence of the eucharistic celebration on their manner of life. Saint Ignatius of Antioch expressed this truth when he called Christians “those who have attained a new hope,” and described them as “those living in accordance with the Lord’s Day” (iuxta dominicam viventes). (204) This phrase of the great Antiochene martyr highlights the connection between the reality of the Eucharist and everyday Christian life. The Christians’ customary practice of gathering on the first day after the Sabbath to celebrate the resurrection of Christ – according to the account of Saint Justin Martyr(205) – is also what defines the form of a life renewed by an encounter with Christ. Saint Ignatius’ phrase – “living in accordance with the Lord’s Day” – also emphasizes that this holy day becomes paradigmatic for every other day of the week. Indeed, it is defined by something more than the simple suspension of one’s ordinary activities, a sort of parenthesis in one’s usual daily rhythm. Christians have always experienced this day as the first day of the week, since it commemorates the radical newness brought by Christ. Sunday is thus the day when Christians rediscover the eucharistic form which their lives are meant to have. “Living in accordance with the Lord’s Day” means living in the awareness of the liberation brought by Christ and making our lives a constant self-offering to God, so that his victory may be fully revealed to all humanity through a profoundly renewed existence.

Living the Sunday obligation

1. Conscious of this new vital principle which the Eucharist imparts to the Christian, the Synod Fathers reaffirmed the importance of the Sunday obligation for all the faithful, viewing it as a wellspring of authentic freedom enabling them to live each day in accordance with what they celebrated on “the Lord’s Day.” The life of faith is endangered when we lose the desire to share in the celebration of the Eucharist and its commemoration of the paschal victory. Participating in the Sunday liturgical assembly with all our brothers and sisters, with whom we form one body in Jesus Christ, is demanded by our Christian conscience and at the same time it forms that conscience. To lose a sense of Sunday as the Lord’s Day, a day to be sanctified, is symptomatic of the loss of an authentic sense of Christian freedom, the freedom of the children of God. (206) Here some observations made by my venerable predecessor John Paul II in his Apostolic Letter Dies Domini (207) continue to have great value. Speaking of the various dimensions of the Christian celebration of Sunday, he said that it is Dies Domini with regard to the work of creation, Dies Christi as the day of the new creation and the Risen Lord’s gift of the Holy Spirit, Dies Ecclesiae as the day on which the Christian community gathers for the celebration, and Dies hominis as the day of joy, rest and fraternal charity.

Sunday thus appears as the primordial holy day, when all believers, wherever they are found, can become heralds and guardians of the true meaning of time. It gives rise to the Christian meaning of life and a new way of experiencing time, relationships, work, life and death. On the Lord’s Day, then, it is fitting that Church groups should organize, around Sunday Mass, the activities of the Christian community: social gatherings, programmes for the faith formation of children, young people and adults, pilgrimages, charitable works, and different moments of prayer. For the sake of these important values – while recognizing that Saturday evening, beginning with First Vespers, is already a part of Sunday and a time when the Sunday obligation can be fulfilled – we need to remember that it is Sunday itself that is meant to be kept holy, lest it end up as a day “empty of God.” (208)

The meaning of rest and of work

1. Finally, it is particularly urgent nowadays to remember that the day of the Lord is also a day of rest from work. It is greatly to be hoped that this fact will also be recognized by civil society, so that individuals can be permitted to refrain from work without being penalized. Christians, not without reference to the meaning of the Sabbath in the Jewish tradition, have seen in the Lord’s Day a day of rest from their daily exertions. This is highly significant, for it relativizes work and directs it to the person: work is for man and not man for work. It is easy to see how this actually protects men and women, emancipating them from a possible form of enslavement. As I have had occasion to say, “work is of fundamental importance to the fulfilment of the human being and to the development of society. Thus, it must always be organized and carried out with full respect for human dignity and must always serve the common good. At the same time, it is indispensable that people not allow themselves to be enslaved by work or to idolize it, claiming to find in it the ultimate and definitive meaning of life.” (209) It is on the day consecrated to God that men and women come to understand the meaning of their lives and also of their work. (210)

 

[puzzleannie]

I learned in school that the Third Commandment of God is Remeber you keep holy the Sabbath day. Yet St Paul seemed to imply keeping the Sabbath was optional.

Please let me have your views.

my views are irrelevant, it is the view of the Church that because Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath, as he himself said, he established through his resurrection on a Sunday that this is now the Lord’s day, and the new commandments is now Keep Holy the Lord’s Day. search AAA for a more detailed explanation

 

[rocketrob]

Rocketrob
However I am discussing what Paul, not Jesus, meant.

However I agree with you to a certain extent, but I think your reply is an over-simplification.

I think in the context of what Paul was discussing in this section of Romans, its relatively clear that he was talking about various feast and/or fast days that were being recognized by some, and not others, at the time. In the context of everything that Paul said in Scripture, and Scripture and Tradition as a whole, I think its abundantly clear that he was not suggesting that it is optional to “keep the Sabbath,” especially in its fulfilled form of the Lord’s Day as has been discussed.

I don’t understand why you’d want to isolate a single sentence of Paul’s from anything, or everything, that Jesus said. Paul would certainly not contradict Jesus. If these passages seem contradictory to you (or me for that matter), that only means they we do not yet fully understand them. And to understand them, we have to look at Scripture, Tradition, and the Magisterium of the Church as a whole to help us.

rocketrob

 

[NoelFitz]

Snerticus,

thank you for your reply.

Sorry for not replying to you before now.

You wrote:

From what I understand, and I am by no means an expert, the Sabbath is from the Mosaic Law, which Christians today are not bound by.

The vast majority of Christians keep holy the Lord’s Day (Sunday), which replaces the Sabbath (Saturday).

This link to the Catechism of the Catholic Church may help you too:

usccb.org/catechism/text/…hpt1art3.shtml

You imply Chritians are not bound by the Mosaic Law. As the 10 commandments were given by God to Moses, they are part of the Mosaic Law. This statement may be where my problem lies.

The third commandment is “Remember you keep holy the Sabbath day”. So Catholics are bound to obey the Sabbath, yet Paul seems to suggest obeying the Sabbath is not essential, as I wrote initially.

I disagree with you, unfortunately, when you wrote the majority of Christians keep Sunday holy.

Thanks for the link to the CCC.

 

[Bookcat]

Snerticus,

thank you for your reply.

Sorry for not replying to you before now.

You wrote:

You imply Chritians are not bound by the Mosaic Law. As the 10 commandments were given by God to Moses, they are part of the Mosaic Law. This statement may be where my problem lies.

The third commandment is “Remember you keep holy the Sabbath day”. So Catholics are bound to obey the Sabbath, yet Paul seems to suggest obeying the Sabbath is not essential, as I wrote initially.

We observe the 10 commandments…yes…but Christians are not bound by “the Torah” as Paul insisted and as the Church continues to teach…this is regarding the for example…circumcision…dietary laws and ceremonial laws etc…

The Sabbath day was transferred to Sunday by the Church (or one could say by the fact of the Resurrection of the Lord.)…the third commandment is fulfilled on the Lords Day.

Paul is talking about the fact that some Jewish Christians wished to observe various Jewish feasts etc…but he notes that Christians do not have to observe them…though if someone does…the other Christains were not to “get on his case” about it…and likewise those who did observe the various days of Jewish feasts were not to get on the case of those who did not…

 

[Bookcat]

A very very good source for you:

vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_letters/documents/hf_jp-ii_apl_05071998_dies-domini_en.html

 

[NoelFitz]

Rocketrob,
Many thanks for your continued interest in my problem.
I read in Rom 14:5,6 (NASB this time)

One person regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind. 
  He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord, and he who eats, does so for the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who eats not, for the Lord he does not eat, and gives thanks to God.

To me it seems here Paul is suggesting one is not bound to obey the Sabbath.

I am trying to understand Paul. And to do this it is vital to focus on the text. Obviously I do not fully understand Paul. That is why I am here - to learn.

 

[NoelFitz]

**
Bookcat**
You wrote:

A very very good source for you:

vatican.va/holy_father/jo…domini_en.html.

This does not address my specific query.

 

[rocketrob]

Rocketrob,
Many thanks for your continued interest in my problem.
I read in Rom 14:5,6 (NASB this time)

To me it seems here Paul is suggesting one is not bound to obey the Sabbath.

I am trying to understand Paul. And to do this it is vital to focus on the text. Obviously I do not fully understand Paul. That is why I am here - to learn.

Well, keep digging. I don’t think I can offer any more than what’s been said above. If you read the entire chapter of Romans 14, its seems clear to me that Paul is referring to feast or fast days, along with dietary laws, etc. He is telling the new Jewish and Gentile Christians to respect each other and their choices regarding these matters. It was a unique time in history, and as long as everyone was devoting their practices to God (eg, “observes it for the Lord”) with the right intention, he saw no reason that these practices should become sources of division among the new Christians.

If its any consolation, even Peter found Paul difficult to understand:

"15 And account the longsuffering of our Lord, salvation; as also our most dear brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, hath written to you:

16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are certain things hard to be understood, which the unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, to their own destruction." (2 Pet 3:15-16)

rocketrob

 

[Bookcat]

**
Bookcat**
You wrote:

This does not address my specific query.

Wow you read fast.

It goes a good deal into the nature of the Sabbath…and the Lords Day (so it actually does relate to this…)

 

[Bookcat]

We observe the 10 commandments…yes…but Christians are not bound by “the Torah” as Paul insisted and as the Church continues to teach…this is regarding the for example…circumcision…dietary laws and ceremonial laws etc…

The Sabbath day was transferred to Sunday by the Church (or one could say by the fact of the Resurrection of the Lord.)…the third commandment is fulfilled on the Lords Day.

Paul is talking about the fact that some Jewish Christians wished to observe various Jewish feasts etc…but he notes that Christians do not have to observe them…though if someone does…the other Christains were not to “get on his case” about it…and likewise those who did observe the various days of Jewish feasts were not to get on the case of those who did not…