Sabbath

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**Bookcat,
**
Again, many thanks.

What does the Torah mean? is it the Pentateuch, the first five books of the Bible. Are you suggesting we are not bound by the Bible?

However your reply is solid and the best explanation I have. It does not fully satisfy me. But I cannot get a better explanation. That is why I am doing my best to try to understand Paul.
 
NoelFitz said:
**Bookcat,
**
Again, many thanks.

What does the Torah mean? is it the Pentateuch, the first five books of the Bible. Are you suggesting we are not bound by the Bible?

However your reply is solid and the best explanation I have. It does not fully satisfy me. But I cannot get a better explanation. That is why I am doing my best to try to understand Paul.
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Torah is yes the first Five books to the Old Testament called the Pentateuch by us. We are NOT obliged to follow all those laws and ceremonies etc noted there…we are no longer “under the Torah…and actually Gentiles never were”. Of course the Moral law (which largely involves the “natural moral law” as well…like do not murder) is binding on us…but the worship of God is fulfilled differently than what Jews were bound to do in those books…

This does not mean those books are not important…they are still the Word of God…but Jesus really is our “Torah” fully now…he fulfilled the Torah of the OT.

Some things in the Bible…have been fulfilled …etc…

(feel free now to have some nice tasty bacon…)
 
Rocketrob,

Thanks again.

I will try to keep digging.

The things you refer to are “identity markers” and your ideas reflect the New Perspective on Paul. It really is the best explanation we have. So until I can understand better I will go along with it, even though it leaves me a bit dissatisfied

But that is why I appreciate CA, as here we can discuss our problems and seek understanding within our Catholic traditions.

So thanks to you for helping me and all who contributed to this discussion.
 
PS: also recall reference that other things were “tacked onto the Torah” and these could be considered part of the Torah…not completely sure on this one…but I note it cause you asked what the Torah was.
 
(and with your interest in Paul make sure you Pope Benedict XVI)

or a good understanding of Paul I think you will find these audiences of Pope Benedict XVI interesting…

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2006/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20061025_en.html

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2006/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20061108_en.html

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2006/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20061115_en.html

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2006/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20061122_en.html

Series from the Year of St. Paul

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20080702_en.html

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20080827_en.html

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20080903_en.html

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20080910_en.html

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20080924_en.html

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20081001_en.html

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20081008_en.html

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20081015_en.html

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20081022_en.html

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20081029_en.html

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20081105_en.html

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20081112_en.html

Faith and works in these two:

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20081119_en.html

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20081126_en.html

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20081203_en.html

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20081210_en.html

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2009/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20090107_en.html

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2009/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20090114_en.html

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2009/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20090128_en.html

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2009/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20090204_en.html

books that contain them:

ignatius.com/Products/SPAUL-H/saint-paul.aspx

ignatius.com/Products/JAEC-H/jesus-the-apostles-and-the-early-church.aspx
 
Bookcat
You wrote
and with your interest in Paul make sure you Pope Benedict XVI
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I have recently returned from England where I participated in the beatification ceremonies for Blessed John Henry Newman led by the pope. It was a wonderful experience and the pope impressed so many people, both believers and non-believers.

I definitely am a fan of B XVI.

PS: I cannot guarantee I woll look at all the sites you suggest. NF.
 
NoelFitz said:
Bookcat
You wrote

I have recently returned from England where I participated in the beatification ceremonies for Blessed John Henry Newman led by the pope. It was a wonderful experience and the pope impressed so many people, both believers and non-believers.

I definitely am a fan of B XVI.

PS: I cannot guarantee I woll look at all the sites you suggest. NF.
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The first ones are from Jimmy Akin (chief apologist at Catholic Answer) and are directly about the Torah.

and the other ones are the various Weds Audiences of the Pope…you can get them as books…see the bottom (they are certainly worth it ) and are all about Paul (Bonus material :))
 
NoelFitz said:
Rocketrob,
The things you refer to are “identity markers” and your ideas reflect the New Perspective on Paul. It really is the best explanation we have. So until I can understand better I will go along with it, even though it leaves me a bit dissatisfied.
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Sorry, but I don’t know what you are referring to here. I am currently taking a course on the Catechism, and we are in the third section, or ‘Pillar.’ It is about the Moral Law, and living it out, as I’m sure you are aware. This forum discussion probably arose a few weeks early for me. I likely would have had more information in coming weeks.

rocketrob
 
Bookcat said:
We are not bound to obey the Jewish Sabbath…we observe the Lords Day.

This is where the 3rd commandment is fulfilled now…
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I disagree. We Christians are to keep the sabbath. No where in the new testament will you find the sabbath commandment being changed. Everyone seems to be saying that man changed it because… but

Matthew 15:9
But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
 
iWrecknSow said:
I disagree. We Christians are to keep the sabbath. No where in the new testament will you find the sabbath commandment being changed. Everyone seems to be saying that man changed it because… but

Matthew 15:9
But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
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The Lords Day is the day Christians observe. As seen in the New Testament and the other early Christians.

catholic.com/library/Sabbath_or_Sunday.asp

catholic.com/thisrock/1993/9312chap.asp

catholic.com/thisrock/1999/9902fea1.asp

Jesus was not talking about such…he was talking about the things that some Pharisees observed while not observing the more important things…
 
iWrecknSow

You ask where in the NT is Sunday considered the Christian Sabbath.

How about 1 Cor 16:2
On the first day of every week, each of you is to put aside and save whatever extra you earn, so that collections need not be taken when I come.
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NoelFitz said:
rocketrob

Would you like to do a Google search for the New Perspective on Paul?
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NoelFitz:
I did a quick search…sounds like the ‘New Perspective on Paul’ can be summarized as Protestants coming around to the ‘traditional Catholic’ interpretation of Paul. I’ve seen this happen several times, and many former Protestants have written about similar experiences. “Going back” to the original ideas of the Apostles and early Christian Church inevitably leads to Catholicism.

Just for your information, what I wrote above is consistent with commentary material appearing both in the Haydock Bible (mid-1800’s) and Bernard’s “A Catholic Commentary on Holy Scripture” (mid-1950s). There really isn’t anything ‘new’ about this material.

Hopefully you will take to heart the remainder of Peter’s passage regarding ‘false prophets’ who were twisting Paul’s words (and other Scripture) to fit their own ideas:
You therefore, brethren, knowing these things before, take heed, lest being led aside by the error of the unwise, you fall from your own steadfastness. (2 Pet 3:17)
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rocketrob
 
Hi,

The Sabbath is not really a day per se. Sabbath simply means “seven”, a day of rest. It does not mean Saturday. The Jews observe the Sabbath (their holy day of obligation) starting at dusk on Friday, and they observe Sabbath until dusk Saturday. (It is traditionally observed when the first star appears in the night sky).

We Christians observe our “sabbath” (day of rest, honoring God), on Sunday, and like the Jewish tradition (our roots are Jewish after all), we begin our sabbath on Saturday evening, ending Sunday evening. A day with the Jewish tradition always began in the evening and one day was counted not as a 24 hr period, but inclusive with that particular day. That is why when Jesus was crucified, on a Friday, the hour of the Sabbath was approaching and He had to be quickly buried (placed in the tomb). This day was counted as 1 day. Saturday, the continuation of the Sabbath, was the 2nd day. Sunday, when our Lord rose from the dead (the resurrection), was the third day, and this is what we call, and what Paul called, The Lord’s day.

As Christians, we celebrate Mass on the Lord’s day just as the Apostles did and have since then. Our Priests have their “sabbath” (day of rest) typically on Mondays, since they are “working” by celebrating Mass for the celebrants every day, except Mondays.

So, as we see, sabbath is the seventh day on which we rest. It does not mean a named day, such as Saturday.

God bless you all,🙂
 
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