Sacrament Alone?

[Tommy999]

Do you feel like Catholics place too much emphasis on the Sacraments and not the virtues they should nourish (such as faith, charity, understanding, Scripture devotion, fellowship, kindness, etc.)? Do we seem to practice a Sacrament Alone doctrine?

Yes, I would say in general although I think that applies more to the "cultural Catholics, and not the regulars on CAF, who I believe do nourish the virtues from the best I can tell. I have asked a few Catholics before if they have a personal relationship and devotion to Christ and they talk about partaking in the Eucharist and how that is the most personal relationship you can have with Jesus. They seem to equate the fulfillment of the requirement to attend Mass and take holy communion and other Church requirements as the main signs of a Christian On the other hand, I know my share of Protestant Christians who have a personal devotion to Christ but who lack the spiritual self-discipline that would greatly benefit from the Catholic Sacraments we can’t participate in, like Reconciliation, so that road travels both ways.

 

[Tommy999]

Yes, I would say in general although I think that applies more to the "cultural Catholics, and not the regulars on CAF, who I believe do nourish the virtues from the best I can tell. I have asked a few Catholics before if they have a personal relationship and devotion to Christ and they talk about partaking in the Eucharist and how that is the most personal relationship you can have with Jesus. They seem to equate the fulfillment of the requirement to attend Mass and take holy communion and other Church requirements as the main signs of a Christian. On the other hand, I know my share of Protestant Christians who have a personal devotion to Christ but who lack the spiritual self-discipline that would greatly benefit from the Catholic Sacraments we can’t participate in, like Reconciliation, so that road travels both ways.

 

[Wannano]

Do you feel like Catholics place too much emphasis on the Sacraments and not the virtues they should nourish (such as faith, charity, understanding, Scripture devotion, fellowship, kindness, etc.)? Do we seem to practice a Sacrament Alone doctrine?

This maybe the wrong thread for this, I am not sure.

I just came from lunch with some friends where we had been discussing attending church. One of them said he had met with a former friend he had not seen for several years. This former friend was known to be very hard on Catholics, always finding some criticism and belittling them. Now this same person has joined the Catholic Church much to the surprise of everyone. When asked why he joined the Catholics when he seemed to hate them so much he stated that he decided to actually look into the faith and was surprised. He said it was very easy to join and now he is free to do what ever he wants as long as he confesses to the priest and keeps the attendance requirements and goes to Mass. He indicated that when he has been a little to sinful it just costs him a few extra bucks and then he is good to go.

Is it even possible that this is could be for real.? Is it possible to practice Catholicism this way?

 

[ConfusedLucy]

I think on the surface less is expected of Catholics, just turn up once a week, take communion and job done for a week compared with churches where you are expected to be part of a house group and be active in the church. It shouldn’t be like that, ideally we would all have at least some understanding of the sacrament and the graces it can give but we don’t live in a perfect world.

I think also the fact that we have the Eucharist is sometimes used as an excuse for not having other things that are also important like outreach and fellowship, it becomes a kind of dichotomy when they aren’t mutually exclusive things at all.

 

[rcwitness]

This maybe the wrong thread for this, I am not sure.

I just came from lunch with some friends where we had been discussing attending church. One of them said he had met with a former friend he had not seen for several years. This former friend was known to be very hard on Catholics, always finding some criticism and belittling them. Now this same person has joined the Catholic Church much to the surprise of everyone. When asked why he joined the Catholics when he seemed to hate them so much he stated that he decided to actually look into the faith and was surprised. He said it was very easy to join and now he is free to do what ever he wants as long as he confesses to the priest and keeps the attendance requirements and goes to Mass. He indicated that when he has been a little to sinful it just costs him a few extra bucks and then he is good to go.

Is it even possible that this is could be for real.? Is it possible to practice Catholicism this way?

That’s one strange story. It sounds like a prank to me, or some sort of sarcasm. He seems disingenuous, no?

 

[Wannano]

That’s one strange story. It sounds like a prank to me, or some sort of sarcasm. He seems disingenuous, no?

It seems unreal. I hope it is not possible. We know there are rotten priests out there but can they charge money to forgive sins? Would that scenario be impossible if a priest would be corrupt? If I see this friend I ate lunch with today later this evening I will ask him if his former friend might be playing him for a fool.

 

[Peter_J]

He said it was very easy to join and now he is free to do what ever he wants as long as he confesses to the priest and keeps the attendance requirements and goes to Mass. He indicated that when he has been a little to sinful it just costs him a few extra bucks and then he is good to go.

Is it even possible that this is could be for real.? Is it possible to practice Catholicism this way?

I think one of the best movie lines from a dozen or so years ago was when Matt Murdock (Daredevil) was in confession and the priest interupted him with the words “You’re not looking for forgiveness, you’re looking for permission.”

 

[Horton]

This maybe the wrong thread for this, I am not sure.

I just came from lunch with some friends where we had been discussing attending church. One of them said he had met with a former friend he had not seen for several years. This former friend was known to be very hard on Catholics, always finding some criticism and belittling them. Now this same person has joined the Catholic Church much to the surprise of everyone. When asked why he joined the Catholics when he seemed to hate them so much he stated that he decided to actually look into the faith and was surprised. He said it was very easy to join and now he is free to do what ever he wants as long as he confesses to the priest and keeps the attendance requirements and goes to Mass. He indicated that when he has been a little to sinful it just costs him a few extra bucks and then he is good to go.

Is it even possible that this is could be for real.? Is it possible to practice Catholicism this way?

It’s sounds as though your former friend is continuing with his hatred of the Church. It’s not easy to join, months of preparation, and non of us have the “freedom” to do as we please and just go to confession. The few extra bucks is just ridiculous. No one pays for absolution of sins.

 

[rcwitness]

It seems unreal. I hope it is not possible. We know there are rotten priests out there but can they charge money to forgive sins? Would that scenario be impossible if a priest would be corrupt? If I see this friend I ate lunch with today later this evening I will ask him if his former friend might be playing him for a fool.

If it’s true, this priest and individual(and maybe parish) is sick and corrupted. If it’s not true, then this individual is sick and corrupted. Either way, this individual is sick and corrupted. I’m inclined to think he’s fabricating it to promote his hatred.

 

[rcwitness]

It’s seem harsh to label many of the Catholics you know as “just going through the motions” or “have poor knowledge of Catholicism”. It may be your perception they have little understanding of the their faith because you are so negative about Catholicism.

Just because we don’t practice our faith in the way you seem to think we should does not mean we are just going through the motions. It is not up to you to judge how much faith another has.

I don’t get the impression jane_doe is “negative about Catholicism” and it doesn’t necessarily take a deity to see evident lack of virtue. We aren’t talking about whether someone is “saved” or not. It’s whether some who have a strong devotion to the Sacraments have little or poor virtues, like compassion, love of neighbor, interest in others, kindness, knowledge, self-control and such.

Just because the Catholic Church doesn’t subscribe to the Faith Alone doctrine (when understood as St James condemned), doesn’t mean there are no members in the Church who live like it. I think it could even be some who have a religious devotion to the Sacraments. Now of course I don’t believe devotion to the Sacraments is the problem, rather that the virtues of Christ that the Sacraments nourish are discarded, or choked out. And there only remains an external “going through the motions”, as jane_doe said.

 

[Horton]

I don’t get the impression jane_doe is “negative about Catholicism” and it doesn’t necessarily take a deity to see evident lack of virtue. We aren’t talking about whether someone is “saved” or not. It’s whether some who have a strong devotion to the Sacraments have little or poor virtues, like compassion, love of neighbor, interest in others, kindness, knowledge, self-control and such.

Just because the Catholic Church doesn’t subscribe to the Faith Alone doctrine (when understood as St James condemned), doesn’t mean there are no members in the Church who live like it. I think it could even be some who have a religious devotion to the Sacraments. Now of course I don’t believe devotion to the Sacraments is the problem, rather that the virtues of Christ that the Sacraments nourish are discarded, or choked out. And there only remains an external “going through the motions”, as jane_doe said.

I agree there are some Catholics who C&E Catholics and CINOs. However we as a human can not judge whether a person is growing in virtue by what we see. Unless the person is a family member living in the same house, we can’t know how they use virtues or gifts of the Holy Spirit.

jane_doe made a blanket statement that many of the Catholics she knows are Sacrament only but how can she know that? Is she the virtue police, checking on these many Catholics to see if they are growing in virtue by way of the Sacraments? In my experience of being a member of three different parishes I just don’t believe it is a common occurrence. In other words it is the exception, not the rule for practicing Catholics and certainly wouldn’t be the many jane_doe speaks of.

 

[Horton]

It seems unreal. I hope it is not possible. We know there are rotten priests out there but can they charge money to forgive sins? Would that scenario be impossible if a priest would be corrupt? If I see this friend I ate lunch with today later this evening I will ask him if his former friend might be playing him for a fool.

There certainly are less than perfect priests in our world. In some ways the sexual abuse scandal of the Church did some good things for Church. I am speaking of the scandal not the sexual abuse Catholics have learned they have a voice and can speak out about what is going on in a parish. That the Church has become more transparent regard abuses of power such as your friend paying for absolution. If your friend is able to do it then there would be others and somewhere down the line it would be reported to the Bishop and stopped.

And really why would anyone pay for something that is a freely given gift? I can walk into any Catholic Church in the world and go to confession (if it is being offered) and no one would even ask who I was. The priest would hear my confession, tell me my penance, and absolve me of my sins.

 

[Kanade]

And really why would anyone pay for something that is a freely given gift? I can walk into any Catholic Church in the world and go to confession (if it is being offered) and no one would even ask who I was. The priest would hear my confession, tell me my penance, and absolve me of my sins.

I was wondering the same thing. It sounds like the person in Wannano’s post is saying that he doesn’t need to be sorry for his sins at all but just pay for the service of absolution. But I wouldn’t think a ‘false’ confession would be of any use anyway, so he’s just wasting his money.

 

[Wannano]

I was wondering the same thing. It sounds like the person in Wannano’s post is saying that he doesn’t need to be sorry for his sins at all but just pay for the service of absolution. But I wouldn’t think a ‘false’ confession would be of any use anyway, so he’s just wasting his money.

Ok, so I am back this morning sort of wishing I would not have shared this experience yesterday. And yet the kind reactions from you folks has clarified for me that this scenario of just paying the priest more bucks does not actually have a probability of happening.

I want to set the record straight, this individual is not my friend, I have no idea who he is. He was a former friend of one of my friends.

So last night I pulled my friend aside and asked him how that all had happened again. So it is true that this individual who was very sarcastic about the CC in former years has now joined the Church. It also sounds like he did explain why he joined he CC as explained in my original post. HOWEVER, it is said that when this individual was asked how he could have overcome all the things he used to accuse the Church of he was perhaps too weak and unprepared to answer all the questions he was being peppered with. (This was in a group setting). So in a way of avoiding defending his change of belief he caved and while trying to get the focus off of himself just blew them off with presenting that scenario. I know this may be confusing to some but the group setting was a reunion of some sort where people were reconnecting to former relationships.

I apologize if I muddied the waters in any way. It is comforting for me to hear that Catholics do not pay money to anyone for their sins.

 

[rcwitness]

Ok, so I am back this morning sort of wishing I would not have shared this experience yesterday. And yet the kind reactions from you folks has clarified for me that this scenario of just paying the priest more bucks does not actually have a probability of happening.

I want to set the record straight, this individual is not my friend, I have no idea who he is. He was a former friend of one of my friends.

So last night I pulled my friend aside and asked him how that all had happened again. So it is true that this individual who was very sarcastic about the CC in former years has now joined the Church. It also sounds like he did explain why he joined he CC as explained in my original post. HOWEVER, it is said that when this individual was asked how he could have overcome all the things he used to accuse the Church of he was perhaps too weak and unprepared to answer all the questions he was being peppered with. (This was in a group setting). So in a way of avoiding defending his change of belief he caved and while trying to get the focus off of himself just blew them off with presenting that scenario. I know this may be confusing to some but the group setting was a reunion of some sort where people were reconnecting to former relationships.

I apologize if I muddied the waters in any way. It is comforting for me to hear that Catholics do not pay money to anyone for their sins.

That’s ok. I respect that you pursued it some. He sounds very complicated. But people who wave a big stick (heavily accuse) usually are complicated. Genuine people are more concerned about their own affairs.

Hopefully he gets himself straightened out. It’s surprising that with such a change of “mind” (careful to say heart, that might still be a work in progress) over the Catholic faith, he doesn’t have a sound witness as to why he made that change. It may be for shallow reasons.

 

[Horton]

That’s ok. I respect that you pursued it some. He sounds very complicated. But people who wave a big stick (heavily accuse) usually are complicated. Genuine people are more concerned about their own affairs.

Hopefully he gets himself straightened out. It’s surprising that with such a change of “mind” (careful to say heart, that might still be a work in progress) over the Catholic faith, he doesn’t have a sound witness as to why he made that change. It may be for shallow reasons.

I thought about this man last night as I was getting ready to sleep. It could be, that after expressing disdain for the Catholic Church, he was unable to express his reasoning for joining. Maybe he wasn’t able to articulate his reason. I know when I first converted it was difficult to explain to others why I knew the Catholic Church was the true church. Over the years I’ve learned how to express why I joined the Catholic Church.

 

[Lenten_ashes]

Ok, so I am back this morning sort of wishing I would not have shared this experience yesterday. And yet the kind reactions from you folks has clarified for me that this scenario of just paying the priest more bucks does not actually have a probability of happening.

I want to set the record straight, this individual is not my friend, I have no idea who he is. He was a former friend of one of my friends.

So last night I pulled my friend aside and asked him how that all had happened again. So it is true that this individual who was very sarcastic about the CC in former years has now joined the Church. It also sounds like he did explain why he joined he CC as explained in my original post. HOWEVER, it is said that when this individual was asked how he could have overcome all the things he used to accuse the Church of he was perhaps too weak and unprepared to answer all the questions he was being peppered with. (This was in a group setting). So in a way of avoiding defending his change of belief he caved and while trying to get the focus off of himself just blew them off with presenting that scenario. I know this may be confusing to some but the group setting was a reunion of some sort where people were reconnecting to former relationships.

I apologize if I muddied the waters in any way. It is comforting for me to hear that Catholics do not pay money to anyone for their sins.

It’s very strange to say the least. So he was a protestant prior to becoming Catholic?

I had to LOL when i read that it’s easy to join the Catholic church. With 8-9 months of RCIA, year long annulments and a slow moving Church due to it’s massive size, this could not be further from the Truth. It was much quicker for me to join the Army and complete their IET training than to become Catholic.

 

[Bookcat]

No.

The Church is rather clear on both.

 

[rcwitness]

No.

The Church is rather clear on both.

The Church is, of course.

 

[SyroMalankara]

Sacrament alone? Only if one is uneducated, superstitious, or following pop Catholicism.

Reception of sacraments imply faith in more than the elements. There should be some basic acceptance of the theology at work - even if it’s as simple as “I trust that God gives Himself to us in this way when the Church performs X”. Someone who is educated, of sound mind and as one progresses in wisdom and knowledge, this should increase in depth and detail - one assumes and hopes.