Sacrament Alone?

[rcwitness]

Sacrament alone? Only if one is uneducated, superstitious, or following pop Catholicism.

And we know we don’t have any of these members…

Reception of sacraments imply faith in more than the elements. There should be some basic acceptance of the theology at work - even if it’s as simple as “I trust that God gives Himself to us in this way when the Church performs X”. Someone who is educated, of sound mind and as one progresses in wisdom and knowledge, this should increase in depth and detail - one assumes and hopes.

 

[Peter_J]

Ok, so I am back this morning sort of wishing I would not have shared this experience yesterday. And yet the kind reactions from you folks has clarified for me that this scenario of just paying the priest more bucks does not actually have a probability of happening.

I want to set the record straight, this individual is not my friend, I have no idea who he is. He was a former friend of one of my friends.

So last night I pulled my friend aside and asked him how that all had happened again. So it is true that this individual who was very sarcastic about the CC in former years has now joined the Church. It also sounds like he did explain why he joined he CC as explained in my original post. HOWEVER, it is said that when this individual was asked how he could have overcome all the things he used to accuse the Church of he was perhaps too weak and unprepared to answer all the questions he was being peppered with. (This was in a group setting). So in a way of avoiding defending his change of belief he caved and while trying to get the focus off of himself just blew them off with presenting that scenario. I know this may be confusing to some but the group setting was a reunion of some sort where people were reconnecting to former relationships.

I apologize if I muddied the waters in any way. It is comforting for me to hear that Catholics do not pay money to anyone for their sins.

There’s a whole spectrum, as it were. What you described (even if it proves to be more of a hypothetical example than an actual case) is quite extreme: I don’t think many Catholics would say “I can do whatever I want, so long as I go to confession after” … A somewhat more common (I’m pretty sure) problem would be Catholics going to confession and thinking they’re fine without any repentance.

… Or a slight variation on that problem: Catholics thinking that confessing a sin IS repenting from it.

 

[Wannano]

There’s a whole spectrum, as it were. What you described (even if it proves to be more of a hypothetical example than an actual case) is quite extreme: I don’t think many Catholics would say “I can do whatever I want, so long as I go to confession after” … A somewhat more common (I’m pretty sure) problem would be Catholics going to confession and thinking they’re fine without any repentance.

… Or a slight variation on that problem: Catholics thinking that confessing a sin IS repenting from it.

Now you have the wheels rolling in my head again. I have always thought Catholics repented of their sin by confessing it to a priest. You must then be stating that they have already repented to God before the confession to a priest because there wouldn’t be a purpose in repenting after if the priest already absolved you. But if you have repented to God before confession to a priest and God has already forgiven you what is the purpose of the confesssion?

 

[ffg]

Core to Catholicism, is the sacraments, from which the potential for virtuous behavior flows.

If the Sacraments impart Grace, then to get the full effect is to give Grace (be virtuous).

To invest Grace, is to let it flow through you.

If a person is in a situation where there is frequent proper participation in the sacraments and that person is punting on virtuous activity flowing through them…

That might be a good example of burying your money. There is a teaching on that trap in the bible.

I would guess there are actually few people who let the graces flow through them consistently. St. Mother Teresa comes to mind.

It’s good to be breathing because there is response to God’s love (Grace), to action.

 

[ffg]

Now you have the wheels rolling in my head again. I have always thought Catholics repented of their sin by confessing it to a priest. You must then be stating that they have already repented to God before the confession to a priest because there wouldn’t be a purpose in repenting after if the priest already absolved you. But if you have repented to God before confession to a priest and God has already forgiven you what is the purpose of the confesssion?

Perhaps this might link up a bit - Consider hurting someone, you feel bad (repentance), you face them and say sorry (confession).

They already know you hurt them, they might even know you feel bad, but seeing you make the effort to apologize shows a true acknowledgement of sin and pure, honest repentance (not an, ‘if this offended you’ apology).

 

[Peter_J]

Now you have the wheels rolling in my head again.

A pretty violent image, but okay. JK

I have always thought Catholics repented of their sin by confessing it to a priest. You must then be stating that they have already repented to God before the confession to a priest because there wouldn’t be a purpose in repenting after if the priest already absolved you. But if you have repented to God before confession to a priest and God has already forgiven you what is the purpose of the confesssion?

I’m not sure I completely understand what you’re saying, but I’m pretty sure that what I said is right: the Sacrament of Reconciliation only avails the person if he/she repents. (I more-or-less recall a good quote on that, which I read many years ago, but it would take me too long to find it.)

 

[peter26]

I have certainly seen many examples of a sacrament alone mentality since my conversion to the Catholic faith. Firstly, many (not all) Catholics seem to place little emphasis on reading, studying and understanding the Bible. Hearing readings at Mass is not enough, you need to understand it. Bible study groups for instance are a rare thing. Secondly, I think fellowship is not emphasised as much in many parishes. However, I don’t think you can overemphasis the Eucharist, even if other things need to also be emphasised. What might be given too much emphasis however are the series of sacraments of initiation that children must go through to check off the nessecary rites of passage.

 

[rcwitness]

I have certainly seen many examples of a sacrament alone mentality since my conversion to the Catholic faith. Firstly, many (not all) Catholics seem to place little emphasis on reading, studying and understanding the Bible. Hearing readings at Mass is not enough, you need to understand it.

Yes. We shouldn’t look at Bible Study groups as a chore. Or just cuz the Church doesn’t mandate them, think that they are not important. It’s like going to Mass. I don’t always feel up for it, but I never regret it. Ait doesn’t even have to be a “bible study” group, but a fellowship group, where Scripture is studied, shared, read aloud, so we can sharpen one another.

Secondly, I think fellowship is not emphasised as much in many parishes. However, I don’t think you can overemphasis the Eucharist, even if other things need to also be emphasised. What might be given too much emphasis however are the series of sacraments of initiation that children must go through to check off the nessecary rites of passage.

There are DULL Catholics among us! We should sharpen one another! I agree, we can’t put too much emphasis on Eucharist devotion, but we can have a bent focus.

 

[Peter_J]

However, I don’t think you can overemphasis the Eucharist, even if other things need to also be emphasised.

I just thought of a conversation from about a dozen or so years ago: a newly formed bible study group was discussing possible topics; one participant’s mantra was, in her words, “I can’t talk about Jesus without talking about the Eucharist”.

I find this up situation a bit of a dilemma: I didn’t want to tell her “You’re putting too much emphasis on the Eucharist”, and yet I’m not sure how else to explain the problem to her (without getting into an extremely long and philosophical discussion).

 

[rcwitness]

I just thought of a conversation from about a dozen or so years ago: a newly formed bible study group was discussing possible topics; one participant’s mantra was, in her words, “I can’t talk about Jesus without talking about the Eucharist”.

I find this up situation a bit of a dilemma: I didn’t want to tell her “You’re putting too much emphasis on the Eucharist”, and yet I’m not sure how else to explain the problem to her (without getting into an extremely long and philosophical discussion).

Talking and witnessing about His Eucharist is not Sacrament Alone!

 

[zaffiroborant]

It’s seem harsh to label many of the Catholics you know as “just going through the motions” or “have poor knowledge of Catholicism”. It may be your perception they have little understanding of the their faith because you are so negative about Catholicism.

Just because we don’t practice our faith in the way you seem to think we should does not mean we are just going through the motions. It is not up to you to judge how much faith another has.

It also seems arrogant, prideful and contemptuous.

 

[rcwitness]

It also seems arrogant, prideful and contemptuous.

Would it be so if you have been part of men’s groups and heard testimonies that they, themselves, have gone through yrs of just “going through the motions”?

 

[jane_doe]

I’ve seen many different Catholics over the years. Two of the many types, are–

1. Some Catholics who go to Mass occasionally, have their kid baptized, Catholic decorations in the house, etc. But when asked they don’t know why they appear to have poor knowledge of Catholicism and little active individual faith. They are more just going through the cultural motions.
2. Some Catholics who go to Mass regularly and involved in many other Church activities. But again, when asked about knowledge of the faith or their individual testimony they don’t really seem to know. Again, more going through the motions but little deeper.

It’s seem harsh to label many of the Catholics you know as “just going through the motions” or “have poor knowledge of Catholicism”. It may be your perception they have little understanding of the their faith because you are so negative about Catholicism.

Just because we don’t practice our faith in the way you seem to think we should does not mean we are just going through the motions. It is not up to you to judge how much faith another has.

It also seems arrogant, prideful and contemptuous.

Horton and Zaffiroborant, the individuals I am describing I have been friends with for decades. I have loved them, had many conversations with about God and faith, attended Mass with many times, and many other Catholic events. Some of these people are among my closets friends.

My observation of “they appear to have poor knowledge of Catholicism” comes from when I ask super basic questions about Catholicism (like “why do you go to Confession?”, “Why do you say the rosary?” etc) and they are unable to answer 9 of 10 of them.

My observation of “they appear to have little active individual faith” comes from when they say they don’t know if Christ loves them, their relationship with God, they continually dwell in mortal sin (and are proud of it), they don’t know how to pray on their own, and they do not know basic scripture stories (my devout Catholic friend of 20 years had never heard the story of Joseph in Egypt until I told her it). When I ask my friend about her testimony and she stares at me blankly.

Do I say that these are all Catholics? No! A few individuals, of the many different types of Catholics I’ve known/know. I indicated that in my original post. My observations here are not made out of pride or contempt, but honestly saying what I see.

 

[zaffiroborant]

Would it be so if you have been part of men’s groups and heard testimonies that they, themselves, have gone through yrs of just “going through the motions”?

If a person says “I’m just going through the motions” that is one thing. Jane is claiming she knows many Catholics who are going through the motions because they don’t meet, her a Mormon, criteria for what makes makes a faithful Catholic.

 

[jane_doe]

If a person says “I’m just going through the motions” that is one thing. Jane is claiming she knows many Catholics who are going through the motions because they don’t meet, her a Mormon, criteria for what makes makes a faithful Catholic.

Zaffiroborant, did you read my more detailed explanation in post #52?

 

[zaffiroborant]

Horton and Zaffiroborant, the individuals I am describing I have been friends with for decades. I have loved them, had many conversations with about God and faith, attended Mass with many times, and many other Catholic events. Some of these people are among my closets friends.

My observation of “they appear to have poor knowledge of Catholicism” comes from when I ask super basic questions about Catholicism (like “why do you go to Confession?”, “Why do you say the rosary?” etc) and they are unable to answer 9 of 10 of them.

My observation of “they appear to have little active individual faith” comes from when they say they don’t know if Christ loves them, their relationship with God, they continually dwell in mortal sin (and are proud of it), they don’t know how to pray on their own, and they do not know basic scripture stories (my devout Catholic friend of 20 years had never heard the story of Joseph in Egypt until I told her it). When I ask my friend about her testimony and she stares at me blankly.

Do I say that these are all Catholics? No! A few individuals, of the many different types of Catholics I’ve known/know. I indicated that in my original post. My observations here are not made out of pride or contempt, but honestly saying what I see.

Of course it’s pride, you’ve set the criteria, know the proper answers and the Catholics around you failed. You have expectations that others will perform as you deem proper for a faithful Catholic. You aren’t even a “Scotsman” yet here you are determining what makes a true “Scotsman”.

 

[rcwitness]

If a person says “I’m just going through the motions” that is one thing. Jane is claiming she knows many Catholics who are going through the motions because they don’t meet, her a Mormon, criteria for what makes makes a faithful Catholic.

I believe Jane’s observations are very possible and even likely. Nothing to be afraid of, but to help in ourselves. It has nothing to do with her being Mormon. She is engaging in her faith, and knowledgeable about Catholicism.

 

[jane_doe]

Of course it’s pride, you’ve set the criteria, know the proper answers and the Catholics around you failed. You have expectations that others will perform as you deem proper for a faithful Catholic. You aren’t even a “Scotsman” yet here you are determining what makes a true “Scotsman”.

Zaffiroborant, what words would you use to describe an individual such as the ones I posted about?

 

[jane_doe]

I believe Jane’s observations are very possible and even likely. Nothing to be afraid of, but to help in ourselves. It has nothing to do with her being Mormon. She is engaging in her faith, and knowledgeable about Catholicism.

Thank you, rcwitness.

 

[Horton]

I believe Jane’s observations are very possible and even likely. Nothing to be afraid of, but to help in ourselves. It has nothing to do with her being Mormon. She is engaging in her faith, and knowledgeable about Catholicism.

It has everything to do with her disdain for the Catholic Church. What she knows of Catholicism comes from CAF. In her original response she state that “many” of the Catholics she knows are Sacrament alone. Later she walks back the many as a few.

Then she claims they have been friends for decades and they are active Catholics. In addition to that she wants us to believe these active Catholics don’t know why they go to confession, why the rosary is prayed, that they don’t know how to pray alone, and just don’t know Catholicism. It would be my guess that maybe she knows one or two Catholics who don’t practice their faith very well not the “many” she originally stated.