Sacrament Alone?

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Horton said:
It has everything to do with her disdain for the Catholic Church. What she knows of Catholicism comes from CAF. In her original response she state that “many” of the Catholics she knows are Sacrament alone. Later she walks back the many as a few.

Then she claims they have been friends for decades and they are active Catholics. In addition to that she wants us to believe these active Catholics don’t know why they go to confession, why the rosary is prayed, that they don’t know how to pray alone, and just don’t know Catholicism. It would be my guess that maybe she knows one or two Catholics who don’t practice their faith very well not the “many” she originally stated.
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And how would you know that she has disdain for the Catholic Church? I have not gotten that impression at all from discussions with her in a number of threads. Seems like a double standard going on here.

I don’t believe it’s a question of whether there are or not ignorant, blind Catholic members who don’t have much interest outside Baptism and weekly Communion, to grow deeper in the faith. I have heard testimonies, talked with Catholics, and heard stories from trustworthy people. And it’s no surprise, we have millions of members.

Is it because of the Sacraments? God forbid! It’s because of sin and indifference, and a lack of love. But my point isn’t to simply criticize, but know how to stir up each other to grow in virtues. And even the grace that the Sacraments are placing before us. They aren’t magic, and God does not wish us to merely receive in body, the Sacraments of grace, but heart, mind and soul.

For many, this is a challenge. For all, but for many a challenge to overcome. Little faith can bring us to the Sacraments, but love and perseverance can grow fruits of righteousness. I want to grow too. And part of that is encouraging other members of my faith, and being encouraged by them. We need each other.

I’m not worried that a Mormon can see this. I would rather that she sees that we see it too, than see us try to hide it and throw blame on her for seeing it. She knows what I believe about the Mormon faith. This discussion is about our own faults, with our own members.
 
andrewstx said:
Is it not true that Mormons only practice only ONE sacrament, as in sacrament meeting?
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Excellent question! The short answer is “no”, but I can see where you’d get the opposite impression, as there are a number of terminology differences between Catholics vs LDS vs other faiths.

What LDS refer to a “the sacrament” is the Lord’s Supper. We take it weekly, and it’s very important, hence we call our weekly Sunday services “sacrament meeting”.
What Catholics call “sacraments” LDS call “ordinances”, and there are multiple in both faiths. Catholics have 7 (as I’m sure you know). LDS have baptism, confirmation, ordination, endowment, sealing, the sacrament, etc. I can elaborate and compare them if you’d like.
 
Horton said:
It has everything to do with her disdain for the Catholic Church. What she knows of Catholicism comes from CAF. In her original response she state that “many” of the Catholics she knows are Sacrament alone. Later she walks back the many as a few.

Then she claims they have been friends for decades and they are active Catholics. In addition to that she wants us to believe these active Catholics don’t know why they go to confession, why the rosary is prayed, that they don’t know how to pray alone, and just don’t know Catholicism. It would be my guess that maybe she knows one or two Catholics who don’t practice their faith very well not the “many” she originally stated.
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Horton, I have had a number of Catholic friends throughout the years. If you’re looking for numbers, ~100 casually and ~50 close enough I could ask deep personal questions about their faith. Majority of my best friends through the years were not LDS but Catholic. With them I have attended Mass ~20 times, Stations of the Cross ~12 times, weddings, confirmations, church socials, study groups, youth groups, carnivals, toured dozens of Cathedrals, etc. I have given rosaries and crucifixes for presents. I have had innumerable deep conversations about faith with Catholics, learning about theirs, and sharing my difficulties with mine. I studied Catholicism and the Catholic people intensely and made my observations afters 1000’s of hours.

Years past, and I moved to a different state where I did not know any Catholics close enough to ask deep questions when I wanted to revisit/deepen my study of Catholicism. My local parish was unhelpful, hence my asking of CAF (I was a lurker for ~2 years before then). So I came here for an 11 month 20 hr/wk intensive again-study of Catholicism. That study period is now closed, but I do learn new things on pretty regular basis.

So yes, I have a basic idea of Catholicism and Catholic people. This was not acquired casually or whimsically. I take my inter-faith studies VERY seriously: getting things from 1st hand sources, seeing as the believers do, striving to love and understand, and respecting every step along the way. I do NOT appreciate being accused of being casual or making quick uninformed judgements, such as you are doing here.
 
rcwitness said:
Is it because of the Sacraments? God forbid! It’s because of sin and indifference, and a lack of love. But my point isn’t to simply criticize, but know how to stir up each other to grow in virtues. And even the grace that the Sacraments are placing before us. They aren’t magic, and God does not wish us to merely receive in body, the Sacraments of grace, but heart, mind and soul.

For many, this is a challenge. For all, but for many a challenge to overcome. Little faith can bring us to the Sacraments, but love and perseverance can grow fruits of righteousness. I want to grow too. And part of that is encouraging other members of my faith, and being encouraged by them. We need each other.
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Totally agreed.
For what it’s worth, there are people whom are extremely shallowly rooted in their in every group. This is not just a Catholic problem, nor in any way tied to the Catholic Sacraments (at least in my assessment).
rcwitness said:
I’m not worried that a Mormon can see this. I would rather that she sees that we see it too, than see us try to hide it and throw blame on her for seeing it. She knows what I believe about the Mormon faith. This discussion is about our own faults, with our own members.
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Thank you. For the record: I have also seem beauty in the Catholic church and some of her people.
 
jane_doe said:
Horton, I have had a number of Catholic friends throughout the years. If you’re looking for numbers, ~100 casually and ~50 close enough I could ask deep personal questions about their faith. Majority of my best friends through the years were not LDS but Catholic. With them I have attended Mass ~20 times, Stations of the Cross ~12 times, weddings, confirmations, church socials, study groups, youth groups, carnivals, toured dozens of Cathedrals, etc. I have given rosaries and crucifixes for presents. I have had innumerable deep conversations about faith with Catholics, learning about theirs, and sharing my difficulties with mine. I studied Catholicism and the Catholic people intensely and made my observations afters 1000’s of hours.

Years past, and I moved to a different state where I did not know any Catholics close enough to ask deep questions when I wanted to revisit/deepen my study of Catholicism. My local parish was unhelpful, hence my asking of CAF (I was a lurker for ~2 years before then). So I came here for an 11 month 20 hr/wk intensive again-study of Catholicism. That study period is now closed, but I do learn new things on pretty regular basis.

So yes, I have a basic idea of Catholicism and Catholic people. This was not acquired casually or whimsically. I take my inter-faith studies VERY seriously: getting things from 1st hand sources, seeing as the believers do, striving to love and understand, and respecting every step along the way. I do NOT appreciate being accused of being casual or making quick uninformed judgements, such as you are doing here.
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Incorrect
 
jane_doe said:
Zaffiroborant, did you read my more detailed explanation in post #52?
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Yes that would be the part where I said you, a Mormon, are setting forth the criteria for what constitutes an involved Catholic, doing with your expectations of what is proper religious expression.
 
zaffiroborant said:
Yes that would be the part where I said you, a Mormon, are setting forth the criteria for what constitutes an involved Catholic, doing with your expectations of what is proper religious expression.
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This is not an answer to my question. I asked what words you would use to describe a Catholic person such as illustrated in post 52.
 
rcwitness said:
I believe Jane’s observations are very possible and even likely. Nothing to be afraid of, but to help in ourselves. It has nothing to do with her being Mormon. She is engaging in her faith, and knowledgeable about Catholicism.
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I agree with you on all of that. Plus, it occurs to me that I would probably get called arrogant, prideful and contemptuous if went to a Protestant forum rather than a Catholic one (that’s one reason I don’t do so).
 
jane_doe said:
This is not an answer to my question. I asked what words you would use to describe a Catholic person such as illustrated in post 52.
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No you did not ask me that you only asked me if I read post 52. Look back. But now that you have asked I would call them misjudged because I don’t believe you can read their hearts or minds. I believe you are overlaying your Mormon views on people and find them lacking due to that.
 
zaffiroborant said:
No you did not ask me that you only asked me if I read post 52. Look back. But now that you have asked I would call them misjudged because I don’t believe you can read their hearts or minds.
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Jane: “Why do you say the Rosary?”
Catholic described in post 52: “I don’t know”.

Jane: “Why are there statues in the church?”
Catholic described in post 52: “I don’t know”.

Jane: “Why do you go to confession?”
Catholic described in post 52: “I don’t know”.

Jane: “Is it a sin for you to be living with your boyfriend?”
Catholic described in post 52: “No, that’s old fashion- don’t be such a prude”.

Jane: “Why did you get on birth control?”
Catholic described in post 52: “Because I totally do not desire kids.”

These are all actual conversations I’ve had. Would you not also describe this person as not knowing that Catholic faith well?
 
It’s very easy to grow up in the Catholic Church knowing little and no one noticing that you know very little. In my case I had some classes before first communion and confirmation but little else. I think there is a bit of a low expectations culture.
 
jane_doe said:
Jane: “Why do you say the Rosary?”
Catholic described in post 52: “I don’t know”.

Jane: “Why are there statues in the church?”
Catholic described in post 52: “I don’t know”.

Jane: “Why do you go to confession?”
Catholic described in post 52: “I don’t know”.

Jane: “Is it a sin for you to be living with your boyfriend?”
Catholic described in post 52: “No, that’s old fashion- don’t be such a prude”.

Jane: “Why did you get on birth control?”
Catholic described in post 52: “Because I totally do not desire kids.”

These are all actual conversations I’ve had. Would you not also describe this person as not knowing that Catholic faith well?
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I find what you say to be VERY hard to believe.
 
Son_of_Niall said:
I find what you say to be VERY hard to believe.
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I can see the living with boyfriend and using birth control. Sadly there are few Catholics who live with partners outside of marriage. But not knowing why they go to confession or why praying a rosary is a devotion to Mary, but then again if they are living together and using birth control they probably don’t go confession.

But any Catholic who’s been through confirmation knows what confession is and what the rosary is.
 
Horton said:
But any Catholic who’s been through confirmation knows what confession is and what the rosary is.
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You’re assuming that all Catholics have gone to confession and that they paid attention/remembered what was taught.

(Note: people not going to classes and/or not paying attention is not a problem unique to Catholicism or even religion, but effects every group of people in every setting)
 
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