Sacrament of Confirmation Denied to My Son.

[H_Opey]

StM,
We feel your pain. IF you do go through the Bishop’s office and still are denied we want you to know you still can pursue this.
1 you can hire a cannon lawyer to help pursued the Bishop that the law is in your favor.
2 and/or you can write to the papal nuncio in DC to get permission, and all cases I have heard of had ended in the favor of the parents.

God Bless you
and please pray for our children as they are waiting too.

 

[Ridgerunner]

:knight1: :knight1: Sound the trumpets! We’re going to war! :knight1: :knight1:

Alexius, my brother:

Please understand that I’m not given to rebelling against authority in the Church, but there are just times when people ought not to take what some of the “professional churchers” hand out. I’m capable of putting a bullet between my teeth and suffering through with most of it, but sometimes it’s just too much.

I am absolutely convinced that we’re getting very close to a real reform within the Church in the U.S. I was there during the post-VII years when the “sprit of Vatican II” abuse was the most frothy, self-indulgent and nutty. Lots of these bishops and the “nuns in civvies” that now pack the chanceries were young then, drank deeply from the toxic pool and kept the poison circulating in their systems. They have never gotten over it, and still think it’s their “ministry” to shove unorthodoxy (Not to mention those tired old felt banners and Marty Haugen) up the noses of the faithful.

The good thing about it all is that they’re getting very long in the tooth. I guess I’m awful, but everytime I see some nun with frizzed hair and those little bitty earrings they seem to like, in the Diocesan paper retiring from some Diocesan “ministry” or other, I cheer. It’s not just the civilianized nuns, but a lot of them are at the core of it. Younger priests I have met are very different from the old “spirit of Vatican II” bunch, and they’re just keeping below the firing line right now. They’ll be in charge very soon and they know it.

I genuinely believe this whole trial is nearly over. But as these people who think it’s their “ministry” to teach children nothing, or worse, to teach them things that are heretical or immoral, slowly fade from the scene, it does seem to me that those who are victimized by them (And a lot of people are. Unfortunately, most don’t know it.) do need to fight fire with fire if they don’t have alternatives. Some of those Church bureaucrats are as mean as they can be, and there’s no sense handling them with kid gloves if they pick a high-stakes fight.

Unfortunately, a lot of priests are intimidated by them. The church bureaucrats have the ear of the bishops, particularly the lefty bishops, who think just like they do, and they can make life miserable for a priest in the Diocese who defies them. But they have no power over the K of C, and they have none over me. The one thing they can’t stand is adverse publicity, and (first conferring with a priest worthy of trust) I wouldn’t hesitate to give it to them in the right cause.

But again, I think this whole thing is passing. In the meanwhile, for people like St. Monica, one can go to war. But there is also changing parishes or even Dioceses.

 

[OutinChgoburbs]

I here what you’re saying. Not all DREs are “professional churchers” but there are some of them who rule their parishes with an iron fist. I am doing my Level II Catechist out of deanery with permission because the lady who runs it in our area comes up with too many looney tunes ideas of her own making.

St. Monica- The St. Joseph Foundation is in San Antonio. I have a friend who needed their services, and they DO get the job done. Otherwise, I’d change to that nice parish willing to accomodate you. Your son can have the Gifts of the Holy Spirit, or he can wait until he’s jumped through enough hoops to be with his friends. I’d pick the Holy Spirit.

 

[EB4304]

I hope this all works out for you, because going through a church sponsored Confirmation program can destroy people’s faith. In my hometown parish, we lament that the catechism they give is a contradiction because it turns more people away from the Church than it brings into it.

Good luck!

 

[grandfather]

StM,
We feel your pain. IF you do go through the Bishop’s office and still are denied we want you to know you still can pursue this.
1 you can hire a cannon lawyer to help pursued the Bishop that the law is in your favor.
2 and/or you can write to the papal nuncio in DC to get permission, and all cases I have heard of had ended in the favor of the parents.

God Bless you
and please pray for our children as they are waiting too.

Whenever people advise to hire canon lawyers, while this is an option, it is impractical. It requires busy parents to sacrifice much time and some money to solve a problem that should be solved easier by finding another more orthodox parish. Writing to Rome may get a response, but wll also take time. People need more immdediate solutions when they haqve children who need the sacraments.

 

[marci]

I didn’t read through all of the posts, so this may have already been addressed. The SETON homeschool website has some information concerning parents rights in reguards to the religious education of their children. Parents are the first teachers, the church should offer support if asked for, but not interfear when not needed.

I was lucky enough to have a parish priest that allowed my son to receive his 1st communion even though I homeschooled him, however the priest in a parish 10 miles away denied my cousin who was also homeschooling her kids. There are no guidelines for homeschooled instruction in our diocese, so it’s basically up to the parish priest. Some are willing others are not. My advice is DO NOT go to the bishop unless you are sure he will be simpathetic to your case. As bad as this may sound to some I would “priest shop” until I found one supportive of homeschooling.

The Sacraments are not supposed to be “prizes” one gets for jumping through certain hoops that qualify one’s worthyness. They are gifts none of us are worthy to receive. They are not supposed to be a carrot held out in front of us.
This was the attitude of our old parish priest (we recently moved). He believed that reasons for denying sacraments should be grave, particularly Baptism. How I miss him, he is the most spirit filled priest I have ever known.

 

[Alexius]

Alexius, my brother:

Please understand that I’m not given to rebelling against authority in the Church, but there are just times when people ought not to take what some of the “professional churchers” hand out. I’m capable of putting a bullet between my teeth and suffering through with most of it, but sometimes it’s just too much.

I am absolutely convinced that we’re getting very close to a real reform within the Church in the U.S. I was there during the post-VII years when the “sprit of Vatican II” abuse was the most frothy, self-indulgent and nutty. Lots of these bishops and the “nuns in civvies” that now pack the chanceries were young then, drank deeply from the toxic pool and kept the poison circulating in their systems. They have never gotten over it, and still think it’s their “ministry” to shove unorthodoxy (Not to mention those tired old felt banners and Marty Haugen) up the noses of the faithful.

The good thing about it all is that they’re getting very long in the tooth. I guess I’m awful, but everytime I see some nun with frizzed hair and those little bitty earrings they seem to like, in the Diocesan paper retiring from some Diocesan “ministry” or other, I cheer. It’s not just the civilianized nuns, but a lot of them are at the core of it. Younger priests I have met are very different from the old “spirit of Vatican II” bunch, and they’re just keeping below the firing line right now. They’ll be in charge very soon and they know it.

I genuinely believe this whole trial is nearly over. But as these people who think it’s their “ministry” to teach children nothing, or worse, to teach them things that are heretical or immoral, slowly fade from the scene, it does seem to me that those who are victimized by them (And a lot of people are. Unfortunately, most don’t know it.) do need to fight fire with fire if they don’t have alternatives. Some of those Church bureaucrats are as mean as they can be, and there’s no sense handling them with kid gloves if they pick a high-stakes fight.

Unfortunately, a lot of priests are intimidated by them. The church bureaucrats have the ear of the bishops, particularly the lefty bishops, who think just like they do, and they can make life miserable for a priest in the Diocese who defies them. But they have no power over the K of C, and they have none over me. The one thing they can’t stand is adverse publicity, and (first conferring with a priest worthy of trust) I wouldn’t hesitate to give it to them in the right cause.

But again, I think this whole thing is passing. In the meanwhile, for people like St. Monica, one can go to war. But there is also changing parishes or even Dioceses.

I was only joking, sorry

 

[Ridgerunner]

I was only joking, sorry

No offense taken, Alexius! I thoroughly enjoyed your comment. Stirred the old blood. Why, I could almost see that Jerusalem cross on my tunic!

 

[Leopard]

…You are right parish registration is meaningless. All it does is provide a list to send donation envelopes…

That’s not correct. Pastors have the responsibility for the spiritual care of their parishioners. Without knowing who and where these parishioners are, this may not be possible in a timely manner, especially when one is sick or in danger of death.

 

[H_Opey]

grandfather,
You are right that hiring a cannon lawyer can be expensive and may not be the fastest route; but you also could use your tithing to pay for it. Just my opinion.
Now, as far as writing Archbishop Sambi, if she calls his office, and follows up with a letter letting him know confirmation is soon, then he usually gets on to it. And his response is - to the Bishop - send me proof that this has been done. No beating around the bushes. So if the Bishop doesn’t even look like he would even consider hearing anymore of their case, I would go to the Archbishop and soooon.

It may be a pain, but if she and her son really want the confirmation to take place in that parish and diocese, she is left with little opitions that aren’t going to be a “pain”.

 

[Andreas_Hofer]

That’s not correct. Pastors have the responsibility for the spiritual care of their parishioners. Without knowing who and where these parishioners are, this may not be possible in a timely manner, especially when one is sick or in danger of death.

What we are talking about is the fact that registering at a parish does not make one a parishioner there. Parishes are still predominantly defined territorially, meaning you are legally a parishioner of the parish within whose bounds you reside, and the few personal parishes that dot the landscape typically don’t require overt registration to be counted as part of the flock. The bottom line is that if you aren’t a resident or personally qualified to be a parishioner, “signing up” at the parish does not actually have the power to place you legally under that pastor’s care. So if I drive 1 hr every week to a crackerjack parish where I am registered and spend my entire Catholic life there, I am still legally a parishioner of Fr. O’Collar at St. Ipsidipsy where I reside. Registration can be helpful for the reason you gave of identifying which Catholics in the area will be requesting care, but it has no legal effects.

 

[Leopard]

What we are talking about is the fact that registering at a parish does not make one a parishioner there. Parishes are still predominantly defined territorially, meaning you are legally a parishioner of the parish within whose bounds you reside, and the few personal parishes that dot the landscape typically don’t require overt registration to be counted as part of the flock. The bottom line is that if you aren’t a resident or personally qualified to be a parishioner, “signing up” at the parish does not actually have the power to place you legally under that pastor’s care. So if I drive 1 hr every week to a crackerjack parish where I am registered and spend my entire Catholic life there, I am still legally a parishioner of Fr. O’Collar at St. Ipsidipsy where I reside. Registration can be helpful for the reason you gave of identifying which Catholics in the area will be requesting care, but it has no legal effects.

I agree with you, but I was responding to the statement that I quoted immediately before my response:

grandfather:

…You are right parish registration is meaningless. All it does is provide a list to send donation envelopes…

This statement is not correct.

 

[H_Opey]

What we are talking about is the fact that registering at a parish does not make one a parishioner there. Parishes are still predominantly defined territorially, meaning you are legally a parishioner of the parish within whose bounds you reside, and the few personal parishes that dot the landscape typically don’t require overt registration to be counted as part of the flock. The bottom line is that if you aren’t a resident or personally qualified to be a parishioner, “signing up” at the parish does not actually have the power to place you legally under that pastor’s care. So if I drive 1 hr every week to a crackerjack parish where I am registered and spend my entire Catholic life there, I am still legally a parishioner of Fr. O’Collar at St. Ipsidipsy where I reside. Registration can be helpful for the reason you gave of identifying which Catholics in the area will be requesting care, but it has no legal effects.

AH,
I am pretty sure that the laws regarding boundary/parishes have changed. You are a parishoner where you are registered. That is why it is important to register and if you switch, to have your name dropped. In St. M case, I wouldn’t drop my registration at the current parish; just have dual.

 

[Leopard]

AH,
I am pretty sure that the laws regarding boundary/parishes have changed. You are a parishoner where you are registered. That is why it is important to register and if you switch, to have your name dropped. In St. M case, I wouldn’t drop my registration at the current parish; just have dual.

No, Andreas Hofer is correct. Pastors have the obligation to care for all the souls who live within their territorial boundaries whether they are registered parishioners or not. (The situation may be different for pastors of personal or national parishes that do not have boundaries as such, or whose boundaries overlap one or more territorial parishes, but I am not sure about that.) Individuals may choose to associate with other parishes than those in whose territory they reside if they so choose, but strictly speaking those pastors are not responsible for persons living outside their parish boundaries, even if those persons are registered in that extraterritorial parish, unless that pastor chooses to assume that responsibility. The responsibility is still that of the pastor of the local parish

This is why registering in your parish is important for far more than just a mailing list for contribution envelopes. Pastors have the absolute obligation to care for those souls in their parishes, whether those parishioners cooperate with their pastors to make this possible or not. But at times when this care may be most important, such as an impending death, a pastor who has no record of a particular parishioner (whether a parishioner by reason of residence or an extraterritorial parishioner whose care the pastor has assumed) and can not find him, that pastor may not be able to fulfill this duty.

 

[Ridgerunner]

AH,
I am pretty sure that the laws regarding boundary/parishes have changed. You are a parishoner where you are registered. That is why it is important to register and if you switch, to have your name dropped. In St. M case, I wouldn’t drop my registration at the current parish; just have dual.

I’m not sure how topical this is, but I thought it was at least amusing. My Diocesan paper took a very Pro-Kerry stance in the 2004 election, and I wrote a letter to the editor lamenting that the Methodist George Bush was closer to the position of the Catholic Church as regards abortion than was the Catholic John Kerry.

Well, that earned me what I called my “excommunication” from the Diocese. I was dropped from the parish rolls (computerized at the Chancery, no doubt) never got the Diocesan paper again nor did I receive the offering envelopes. My parish priest mentioned in my presence and that of others that I had switched parishes. I told him that, no, I had just been cut off by the Chancery. He was puzzled, but I remained out there in the cold.

My son-in-law, unknown to me, wrote a similiar letter to the editor, and the same thing happened to him. He went to the parish priest and asked to be reinstated, and the pastor got it done. I didn’t, because I thought it was amusing. I explained to a priest friend of mine that I was apparently a member of the Archdiocese-at-Large. He laughed and laughed.

But then I did something that messed it all up. I made a gift of stock at the end of the year, designated for the parish. Well, that has to go through the Diocese because they have the brokers and all, which the parish doesn’t. So, the Chancery had to call me to find out who I was, because they have to keep record for the IRS of all donations over a certain amount, and send out acknowledgements to the donors. In order to do it, they had to (oh, the horror! the horror!) reinstate me as a member of the parish or the computer wouldn’t digest it. Of course, I immediately started receiving the Diocesan paper and envelopes again, being back on the computer list. So, if anyone wonders what determines what parish you are in, the answer is: The computer.

 

[H_Opey]

The old law was IF you lived in a certain territory/parish, that was the parish you belonged and you couldn’t change it. You may still be recoginzed, now a days, as “in that parish territorially” BUT you can choose which parish you want to register at and THAT priest is responsible for caring for you and your family. NOW if you live a good ways away, the priest may say, I may not be able to do xyz if you are sick but I will call a priest nearby.
Such as the parish where we are technically “in” their boundaries is not our parish and that priest is NOT responsible for our spiritual care; our priest where we are is and our priest made us clear on that.

Ridgerunner, you could write a sitcom. Sorry that happened to you but I am glad you kept your sense of humor as most would have walked away.

 

[Brendan]

but strictly speaking those pastors are not responsible for persons living outside their parish boundaries, even if those persons are registered in that extraterritorial parish, unless that pastor chooses to assume that responsibility. The responsibility is still that of the pastor of the local parish
.

You hit the nail on the head. If St. Monica enters into a pastoral relationship with a pastor that will accept her homeschooling religious ed.

Remember that pastoral care is a relationship. A priest is legally obligated to accept pastoral responsibility, but that does not exclude a member of the faithful from seeking care elsewhere.

The geographic boundry obligates the priest, not the faithful.

Now another priest is under no Canonical obligation to accept a person from outside their boundry, but they may do so if they feel they can effectively offer the needed spiritual care.

 

[orionsbelt]

This happened to us in a slightly different form. My son attends a Catholic High School, but not the one associated with our Diocese and supported by our parish. His school has a very structured spiritual development program run by Opus Dei (FYI, I don’t want to hear about them being cultish, etc, they are not). With religion classes every day and daily Mass I am very confident that he is getting a good Catholic education and faith formation.

However, since he does not participate in our parish Religious Education program (it would be redundant at best) the DRE and pastor would not allow him to be Confirmed. I proposed they test him, have him attend the parish HS retreat and that he would do his service project under the direction of the DRE. Didn’t work. I do like our Pastor but I suspect he didn’t want a fight with the DRE.

We talked with my son’s school chaplain/priest and he suggested we talk with priests from other parishes. We found a parish that would allow him to be confirmed with their Confirmation class. The pastor was familiar with the school and the religious development. He didn’t require a formal test but met with my son several times for informal talks. We are lucky because we live near the border of two Dioceses (his school and this other parish are actually in the other Diocese).

Turns out we like the other parish much better anyway. It has a much more traditional Church and Liturgy.

So my suggestion is to shop around. Your child does not have to be confirmed at your local parish.

 

[jmcrae]

From the other side of the fence: I have offered private instruction to kids who weren’t able to attend Sacramental Preparation classes, and although sometimes they come, most times, I am left sitting in the classroom all by myself, wondering if the family got into a car accident or something on their way to the Church. Later, I find out, “Oh, we had to go shopping, so we couldn’t come. Sorry.”

I wonder if this particular DRE has just had too many no-shows, and doesn’t trust the people to come when they are supposed to come.

 

[pprimeau1976]

After reading many (I admit, not all) of the posts, I have to wonder why you just doesn’t make arrangements with the DRE to see what requirements would be acceptable to her? Did the DRE say that he could NEVER be confirmed? If the only requirements are attending the classes, I would just have your son attend the classes. If some facilitator brings up some points of history that aren’t true, or if they express personal opinions that are contrary to the faith, I would first and foremost tell your son what is true. Secondly, I would just inform your DRE what was being taught and let her deal with it the way she sees fit.

The whole point of the cluster system is to get the parents to be involved and to follow the textbook as you said. If wrong information is being disseminated that is *not *in the textbook, all the DRE has to do is to tell the parents to just follow the textbook. More than likely, it was probably some parent who had bad information or read the DaVinci Code one too many times. If the textbook is in error, then that is the real problem. Not the whole program itself.